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1984 anti-Sikh riots: Jagdish Tytler claims witness was used


Rajdeep Sardesai,CNN-IBN
Apr 11, 2013 at 08:30pm IST

New Delhi: Even as a Delhi court ordered reopening of case against Congress leader Jagdish Tytler for his alleged involvement in the 1984 anti-Sikh riots, he claimed he was not present at the scene of the riots and that the witness was pressured into giving a statement against him. Speaking exclusively to IBN18 Editor-in-Chief Rajdeep Sardesai, Tytler said, "I happened to be with Indira Gandhi's body, how come I would be at two places at the same time?"

He said witness Surinder Singh was forced to give a statement against him. Pointing out that Surinder Singh changed his statements five times, Tytler questioned why senior lawyer HS Phoolka forced him to write a statement. "My name comes back on the basis of the statement made by Surinder Singh and Jasbir Singh. Surinder Singh first gave a statement in English and then gave a written statement in Gurumukhi. I want to know that why Phoolka forced Surinder Singh to write a statement," Tytler said. "According to Surinder Singh son's affidavit and Surinder Singh himself, HS Phoolka used them," Tytler added.

ALSO SEE 1984 anti-Sikh riots: Court orders reopening of case against Jagdish Tytler

He also pointed out that the second witness, Jasbir Singh was an absconder in the case. "Jasbir Singh is an absconder as per the court of law. The investigating agencies found out that Jasbir Singh was in Jodhpur during the time of the incident," Tytler said.

Tytler also claimed that he provided a shelter to the Sikhs at the time of the riots. "I'm the only person who arranged camps for the Sikhs and stayed with them. In my constituency I got people to stay in my house during the incident and also stopped a mob," Tytler claimed.

Tytler also questioned as to why the Bharatiya Janata Party didn't take any action when it came to power. "The BJP government came twice, they too could have taken action against me," Tytler said.

Tytler maintained that he was innocent in the case, but will not accept any responsible position till his name is cleared. "When I resigned I took the moral responsibility. Till my name is cleared, I won't ask for any position," he said.

The Congress leader said he was "100 per cent open to probe in the 1984 riots case."

A Delhi court had on Wednesday ordered that tytler's role in a case related to the 1984 anti-Sikh riots be re-investigated. The Karkardooma court which ordered the re-investigation set aside the order of a trial court which had accepted the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) closure report of 2009 that had given a clean chit to Tytler.

The closure report was later accepted by the magistrate in 2010 who said there was no evidence against Tytler to try him in the riots case. The case against Tytler relates to the killing of three persons near a gurudwara in Pul Bangash area of the national capital on November 1, 1984.

Below is the full transcript of the interview:

Rajdeep Sardesai: Welcome to this special at the moment. Joining me now is someone who is making all the news. He has been in the headlines. Remember, only yesterday, a court in New Delhi has asked for a further investigation into the 1984 anti-Sikh riots case and asked for probe in the case. A further investigation in the case. And the man who therefore finds himself under the scanner once again is former union minister and Congress leader, Jagdish Tytler. Remember Mr Tytler is someone against whom there was a closure report that the CBI had moved for. Now the court has asked for the case to once again be heard. Ok, that's the big story at the moment.

But joining us now is the newsmaker of the moment, joining me now is Jagdish Tytler himself, breaking his silence for the first time since that court order yesterday. Appreciate your joining us Mr Tytler. Let us first talk specifically about the court order which has come in the Karkardooma Court yesterday. It says that the CBI is directed to conduct further investigations and to record the statements of witnesses who claimed that you were there when the mob on November 1, 1984 was there at a gurudwara, which resulted in three people dying. And you have been accused of inciting that mob. Does this mean that Jagdish Tytler once again is under the scanner for his alleged role in 1984?

Jagdish Tytler: I don't think so. Because first of all, as per the witnesses which they have given, the mob came at 10 o'clock. But if you see Nanavati, on whose report the whole thing started off, which says the mob came at 1:30. So where does the 10 o'clock come from? That's the first wrong thing.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Ok.

Jagdish Tytler: And the second thing is this that, I happened to be at Indira Gandhi's body. Of which I have a proof that I was there. So how can I be at two places? If I am there with Indira's body, of which the proof is there with Doordarshan, how can I be there?

Rajdeep Sardesai: Let's come one by one. August 2005, Nanavati Commission which probed the 1984 anti-Sikh riots says, "There is credible evidence against Jagdish Tytler that he very probably had a hand in organising attacks on Sikhs", recommends the government to take further action as may be found necessary. So let's be clear, Commission appointed by the government finds that there could be 'very probably a hand that you had in organising attacks on the Sikhs. That's where your name comes back again.

Jagdish Tytler: No, it comes on the basis of the statement given by Surinder Singh. And another fellow Jasbir Singh who is out of the country.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Right.

Jagdish Tytler: But Surinder Singh gives the statement, first he gives the statement in English. And then he realises that my name is there, and he goes back and buys the paper and writes the paper in Gurumukhi and hands it over to Justice Nanavati and says that I did not name Mr Tytler. But Nanavati says that once he gives the statement that Mr Tytler was there, and second time he says he was not there, so on that basis these comments came.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir, he says 'very probably had a hand' in organising attacks on the Sikhs. This is a former Supreme Court judge and he did cast a needle of suspicion in your view, as a result of which your political career also suffered a setback at that time.

Jagdish Tytler: I am sorry but you must understand.. In the report, there is nothing else mentioned except the affidavit of Surinder Singh.

Rajdeep Sardesai: It seems Surinder Singh is the key person. The granthi at the time who came out to say that he saw you. He saw you inciting a mob at the gurudwara on November 1. I just want to play what Surinder Singh had said to us, so you can respond. Because there have been various conflicting views of what Surinder Singh has said. Just listen to what he said to us in 2007 and I will get you to respond.

Sir there he is very clear. He is very clear that you were present at the spot and were inciting a mob. This is Surinder Singh on hidden camera, sir.

Jagdish Tytler: But why don't you put the tape which I have given you, where he says that he was made to speak like this. He has given you.

Rajdeep Sardesai: No you are saying that Surinder Singh was pressurised by likes of Mr Phoolka, the lawyer for the witnesses, the lawyer for those who died, the victims, he was pressurised to do so. But here we put no pressure on him.

Jagdish Tytler: But that's all right. Another colleague of yours who done this interview on the face, where he says I was forced to do this. So who do you believe? Do you believe this or do you believe that? And he has changed his statement five times. Five times.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Yes. But the point is sir, the very fact that his statement, which he gave before the Nanavati Commission, was enough for a judge to say that he very probably has a hand in organising attacks on Sikhs and subsequently, to the Karkardooma Court. Now we have more witnesses who are ready to, you get a closure report. The CBI files a closure report in your case in 2009. Subsequent to that, other witnesses come up and say they saw you there. Based on that, the Karkardooma Court says now lets reinvestigate.

Jagdish Tytler: No, that's not what it is. They should do it.

Rajdeep Sardesai: You are saying they should not.

Jagdish Tytler: No, I have no objection on that. But I want to say where were the witnesses when the case was registered in 1984?

Rajdeep Sardesai: They could have been pressured.

Jagdish Tytler: Pressured with who?

Rajdeep Sardesai: Mr Phoolka said...

Jagdish Tytler: 22 years, they were pressurised by whom?

Rajdeep Sardesai: Mr Phoolka says Jagdish Tytler has people who were pressurizing witnesses not to depose against him.

Jagdish Tytler: Now this is only vague. Can you imagine a responsiible person talking like this? And then why would his son, his father says that Surinder is telling a lies. I have shown you the affidavit he has given to the CBI. His brother says that my brother is telling lies. We were with him. The gurudwara president says he is telling lies. The gurudwara general secretary says he is telling lies. And in the end, he writes to the Prime Minister saying, "I am sorry. I told a lie."

Rajdeep Sardesai: What would Surinder Singh have against you? What would Surinder Singh have against you to put out a false affidavit against you? Why would a granthi take you on? What is it that would make him say that you were there inciting a mob?

Jagdish Tytler: But I said he didn't do it. He didn't say.

Rajdeep Sardesai: He said it sir. You heard it on tape.

Jagdish Tytler: Have you seen the statement which he gave to the court? Ultimately it is the court..

Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir I will tell you what Mr Phoolka did..

Jagdish Tytler: One second.. 164 he says that here is this gentleman who made me write this. I did not see Mr Tytler. Mr Tytler has nothing to do with this and I want to put this on record in the court. Unfortunately, the man died of cancer.

Rajdeep Sardesai: That's right. Sir, Mr Phoolka came on my programme yesterday. He said there was an attempt to discredit the key witnesses against you, by using people, including your cook, your driver, 32 people who he claimed had been bought over by Mr Tytler to discredit the prime witnesses that the prosecution had.

Jagdish Tytler: I think you should take action against Phoolka for saying my driver. My driver, my cook. All these are nonsense. They are 37 witnesses who are staying near the gurudwara. Is the president of the gurudwara my cook? Is the secretary of the gurudwara, is the lady whose husband's shop was looted, whose employee was killed, is she my employee?

Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir, my limited point to you is that, you say Surinder Singh kept changing his statements, Mr Phoolka on the other hand has been consistent. He is one person who has fought for the victims. Why would Phoolka have something against you only specifically?

Jagdish Tytler: Well I want to know, why did he make him write this? When he promised him...

Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir, Mr Phoolka didn't make Surinder Singh say this to us on camera.

Jagdish Tytler: What?

Rajdeep Sardesai: What you heard Mr Surinder Singh has said..

Jagdish Tytler: You are giving your version.

Rajdeep Sardesai: I am giving the version that he gave us.

Jagdish Tytler: But I gave you a tape also. Why don't you listen to that tape?

Rajdeep Sardesai: Sure.

Jagdish Tytler: And you will find shocking things in that tape. His son writes from America, to say my father is being pressurised. Why would his son say this?

Rajdeep Sardesai: Which he has also said on affidavit that my father is being pressurised.

Jagdish Tytler: By who?

Rajdeep Sardesai: By Mr Phoolka. Or so was the whole claim.

Jagdish Tytler: The whole game is, what is this game?

Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir, my point is...

Jagdish Tytler: This means there are people, there are people, I didn't want you to say this thing because there is another thing, but there are people who are wanting this kind of a thing to happen.

Rajdeep Sardesai: People meaning who? Now let's be clear. Are you saying your political adversaries are wanting this?

Jagdish Tytler: No, no.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Who are the people?

Jagdish Tytler: Will you take five minutes and I will give you this thing.

Rajdeep Sardesai: No, tell us.

Jagdish Tytler: There was once a man who came to my house. A ruffian looking Sardar came to me. He said I have to see you. I said I don't want to see you. He insisted on seeing me, so he came back and I said, 'Yes?'. He says I just spent 12 years in prison. I was one of the persons who shot Beant Singh. And I have come back now. I have come back now and I want to lead a normal life but I have been pressurized.. There is a certain group, that you go and shoot this man and when you are caught, say Mr Tytler gave it. I at once called the IB people, I didn't let him leave the thing, I called the IB people and I said please, this is the man and that's what he is saying. The IB people took him with them. He gave his statement, where the camps are, where Lahore camp is, where German camps are, where all this game is being played. So I think those are the people who made it.

Rajdeep Sardesai: But you are hinting, you are claiming that someone within your own party, or one of your political adversaries, have set up the likes of Surinder Singh? Let's be clear.

Jagdish Tytler: No, I would not like to say this. I think this simple man was used because here is this gentleman who claims that, because according to the affidavits given by this son, the affidavit given by Surinder Singh, that here is this man who misled them.

Rajdeep Sardesai: But Mr Phoolka is also a respected lawyer of the court, Sir.

Jagdish Tytler: Is this a respectable thing? To make affidavits of this kind? You call him a respectable man?

Rajdeep Sardesai: You are claiming these are false affidavits, you can of course make this point before the courts sir...

Jagdish Tytler: No no, it is the CBI who investigated. Not me.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Point taken. There are questions being raised over the CBI's bona fides also. Because the Director of CBI then become a Governor who files a closure report. There are questions that... people call the CBI today the Cover-up Bureau of Investigation or Congress Bureau of Investigation.

Jagdish Tytler: No no. I think that you must know this, and the nation must know this, the closure report was first made when Advani was the Home Minister. How was that?

Rajdeep Sardesai: Are you now suggesting somewhere that this entire issue has been a political conspiracy against you?

Jagdish Tytler: Well no. I think they just want you to take advantage, make money out of this. I think Phoolka was getting a lot of money from the gurudwara people...

Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir you are now making an allegation against Mr Phoolka.

Jagdish Tytler: I am saying maybe.

Rajdeep Sardesai: You are saying he made money from the gurudwara.

Jagdish Tytler: I said maybe.

Rajdeep Sardesai: I wish you had Mr Phoolka in this programme against you.

Jagdish Tytler: I would want that one of these days, you bring Mr Phoolka.

Rajdeep Sardesai: I am ready to do bring him. I can bring him now also if you want.

Jagdish Tytler: No, no. I would want you to do it with the documents I gave you to see. Make him face those documents.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir, just one more thing. It is not just Surinder Singh, there was also one more person. Jasbir Singh.

Jagdish Tytler: Yeah.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Let's just hear what Jasbir Singh told us. I want you to respond to what another witness said about your role. Listen in to Jasbir Singh now.

Jagdish Tytler: Do you believe his statement?

Rajdeep Sardesai: No he is a person who is making a statement. Are you saying everyone is manipulated by Mr Phoolka?

Jagdish Tytler: No, no. Listen.. The CBI did investigation.. He was not even in Delhi. And the day he is telling there is a curfew in Delhi. And he says that 30 kilometres away he comes and sees me.

Rajdeep Sardesai:Mr Tytler, the CBI filed the closure report against you first in 2007, then 2009. The CBI's closure report is twice rejected by the court. And in both instances..

Jagdish Tytler: No, no. Only once it is rejected..

Rajdeep Sardesai:But that then throws a question mark. Why would.. If as you are saying Surinder Singh was pressurised into giving a statement against you. If you are saying Jasbir Singh is a false witness then the court should say there is nothing against Mr Tytler. Why doesn't the court day we found nothing against Mr Tytler.

Jagdish Tytler: Do you know Jasbir Singh is an absconder. He is wanted by the law.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Yes, but there is also the question whether the CBI has been serious about investigating and inquiring.. Infact CNN-IBN tracked the down Jasbir Singh.. Something that the CBI should have done..

Jagdish Tytler: But did you know this.. The CBI also tracked down that he is not even in Delhi but Jodhpur.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Yes, but my point is..

Jagdish Tytler: No.. Just tell me.. The man is in Jodhpur.. How can he make a statement that he is in Delhi?

Rajdeep Sardesai:Sir, my limited point again.. Whether it is with Surinder Singh, whether it is with Jasbir Singh, you seem to be suggesting all these witnesses have been planted against you. Why only against you?

Jagdish Tytler: Well, I don't know why..

Rajdeep Sardesai: You are the MP at that time..

Jagdish Tytler: I am telling you this..

Rajdeep Sardesai:Yes..

Jagdish Tytler: But there is not a single complaint against me from my constituency. I have majority of Sikhs from my constituency. Not a single affidavit in 12 commissions from my constituency.

Rajdeep Sardesai:Sir, can I just tell you what happened then.. Indira Gandhi dies on October 31. Riots start the next day. I won't even call it a riot, I will call it a genocide. Three thousand Sikhs were massacred. Six people have been convicted till now. No senior Congress leader was touched. Therefore, the perception.. and you became a Union Minister subsequent to that, you won four elections. The perception is Jagdish Tytler used his clout to get away. That is the perception.

Jagdish Tytler: First of all..

Rajdeep Sardesai: How do you.. How do you avoid that perception given the fact that the Congress is seen to be using the CBI to settle scores?

Jagdish Tytler: I just want to tell you one thing.. What happened in 1984, it doesn't make anybody happy. It is a shameful thing.

Rajdeep Sardesai:And only half a dozen people are convicted.

Jagdish Tytler: No, no. Let's not.. You listen to me.. I have served the Sikh community. My house from October 31 night to one month, my house was full of the Sikh families. I did not allow a single family in my constituency to stay in their homes. We used to sleep on the ground. But we allowed these people to stay in our place.

Rajdeep Sardesai:But Sir..

Jagdish Tytler: Listen to me.. I only want to talk about myself.. I am the only person, who arranged the camps.. And I stayed in the camps..

Rajdeep Sardesai: Did people not die under the watch of your government when you were a MP?

Jagdish Tytler: Listen.. I know.. If you go through my interview to Blitz magazine in month of November and when I went to see with Madan Lal Khurana, the Governor.. And he was having a beer. I said if I had a gun, I would shoot you the way Delhi is being treated. This is a statement I made at that time.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir, my point to you is.. 3000 people died, 29 years later half a dozen people are convicted. All the Congress MPs of the time - whether yourself or HKL Bhagat, Sajjan Kumar, Dharamdas Shastri have been under some scanner or the other. My limited point to you again is - how can you all completely escape responsibility. The fact is there were mobs on the street, did you do enough to stop those mobs?

Jagdish Tytler: Yes, in my constituency, yes I did that. I did that. And another thing.. I have got a record of 31 people or 21 people who were convicted.. FIR was registered against BJP leaders.. Known BJP leaders.. Now why was this application withdrawn? I want to ask you this. Hindustan Times published those things in detail. How were these applications or the FIRs against the BJP leaders withdrawn?

Rajdeep Sardesai:Sir, my limited point again to you will be that here you have. At the end of the day the case against you is based by two prime witnesses. It went before the Nanavati Commission; it went before courts of law. None of them have openly exonerated you. Why? Why have you not been openly exonerated?

Jagdish Tytler: By who?

Rajdeep Sardesai: By either the commissions of enquiry or by the courts to say Jagdish Tytler had nothing to do with the case. Then they should exonerate you?

Jagdish Tytler: But the case has not come in the court. There is no FIR against me.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir, the closure report has come before the court.

Jagdish Tytler: The closure report has come and it was accepted by two courts. And the third judge says that there are three witnesses, the CBI has not taken interview of.. they should have also been accounted for

Rajdeep Sardesai:That means, there are more witnesses coming up.. Maybe for 29 years, they were intimidated.

Jagdish Tytler: But what were these witnesses doing from 1984 to 2008?

Rajdeep Sardesai: You are a very powerful minister.

Jagdish Tytler: No, no...

Rajdeep Sardesai: Are you saying that at no stage did they.. No, that's the implication that is being drawn by critics.. That you pressurised witnesses..

Jagdish Tytler: Can anybody be named? One person? Who I pressurised?

Rajdeep Sardesai:Sir, Mr Phoolka..

Jagdish Tytler: Don't talk about Mr Phoolka. Phoolka has got his own target and which he is going to be exposed. I can tell you this. I served the Sikh community of my constituency. I arranged the camps and I am proud of the fact that I did not let this happen.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Are you proud of the fact that 300 Sikhs got massacred?

Jagdish Tytler: No, no. No listen I told you.. What happened in 198 was a shameful thing. And nobody could say that anyone is proud of it. One is very sorry that this has happened. But I am saying this to defend myself..

Rajdeep Sardesai:Sir the reason I ask you this is that Rajiv Gandhi was the Prime Minister at the time. He makes a statement on November 16, that "when a big tree falls, the earth will shake". The general, therefore, impression is that the Congress under its watch allowed this to happen. All the MPs including yourself have to take responsibility.

Jagdish Tytler: Mr Sardesai, will you let me complete one sentence?

Rajdeep Sardesai: Yes, yes.

Jagdish Tytler: The day Mrs Gandhi's body was lying, all the seven MPs were standing around it.. And at that time when the information was coming, it was Rajiv Gandhi who shouted "what the hell are you doing? Go back to your constituency".

Rajdeep Sardesai: The same Rajiv Gandhi..

Jagdish Tytler: No, no.. Listen.. I have not yet completed my statement. And then he said "Jagdish hop in. Let's go to your constituency" and he drove the car and I sat next to him. And he went down to Mukherjee Nagar, Model Town..

Rajdeep Sardesai:Sir, there is no way 3000 people would have died..

Jagdish Tytler: Don't blame Rajiv Gandhi.. No..

Rajdeep Sardesai: Are you saying that the Prime Minister of the country should take no responsibility when 3000 people die in the city? You ask for Narendra Modi to take responsibility for 2002. But the Congress doesn't want to take responsibility for 1984..

Jagdish Tytler: I just said this, you know, nobody is happy that this has happened. Nobody. It is a shameful thing. May god.. Never this kind of thing should happen..

Rajdeep Sardesai: But will the Congress take the responsibility of what happened in 1984? It happened under your watch sir.

Jagdish Tytler: It is for the court to decide that who is responsible. Let the court decide.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir the fact is that various commissions of enquiry have been appointed.. There has been a feeling that those commissions of enquiry also did not all do a very honest job. Mr Ranganath Mishra, sorry to say sir, former Supreme Court Chief Justice then became an MP, brought into the Rajya Sabha by the Congress party. Various CBI directors who have probed this case have been given various benefits - they become Governors, therefore there is a question to ask..

Jagdish Tytler: Twice the government of BJP was there, and the commissions were there under them also..

Rajdeep Sardesai: They claim they appointed the Nanavati Commission..

Jagdish Tytler: Ah.. What happened to the previous two ones? Why did they not take actions? Don't tell me this that they are the goody ones and we are the bad ones..

Rajdeep Sardesai:What is the difference between 1984 and 2002 then? 3000 Sikhs die in a genocide.. The BJP raises that issue time and again..

Jagdish Tytler: Let them do it.. I don't want to compare Modi with 1984. Let me tell you this.. Because 1984 was something in which my name is being cropped up and that is why I am here. I said I want to do this interview with you because I wanted to bring the record right.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Yes, you please.. I am allowing you to put yourself..

Jagdish Tytler: Here is a man who organised camps, who stayed in his constituency and the Sikhs brought me back four times as a MP. There is not a single person you can bring out today from my constituency.. I don't know who these three witnesses are.. They are not from my constituency..

Rajdeep Sardesai:But these are three witnesses.. Sir I have got them on tape.

Jagdish Tytler: Where?

Rajdeep Sardesai: I have got them on tape.

Jagdish Tytler: From where. From where they come? Where they are living?

Rajdeep Sardesai:Surinder Singh you know sir was a granthi..

Jagdish Tytler: No Surinder Singh..

Rajdeep Sardesai: Surinder Singh we have discussed, Jasbir Singh we have discussed.. My point, sir, is that why 29 years later that the shadow then still continues? Why are there more witnesses who come up? Why is that the CBI's closure report is rejected by the court? Are these not valid questions to raise?

Jagdish Tytler: Court has not rejected the CBI's report. The court has said that there are three witnesses, please examine them.

Rajdeep Sardesai:That's right.

Jagdish Tytler: Let them come and then decide.. Let the court decide who is guilty or not guilty.

Rajdeep Sardesai: What does then this mean, sir, for you and what is your step ahead politically? Do you agree, because you have been denied your ticket in the past, because of this case.

Jagdish Tytler: When I resigned, I took the moral responsibility because this accusation is on me. I did not want the party or the Prime Minister to be embarrassed. That's why I did it. And I stand, till today, also. Till my name is not cleared, I would not like to ask for any thing..

Rajdeep Sardesai: Would you also concede that till your and the name of other Congress leaders is not cleared, your moral high ground versus Narendra Modi in 2002 doesn't remain? So long as the shadow of 1984 remains over the Congress, the party cannot claim the moral high ground over any incident over Gujarat?

Jagdish Tytler: That's your version..

Rajdeep Sardesai: I am asking you this..

Jagdish Tytler: No, no that's not right.. Modi has got his own agenda.. What he did, everybody knows.. It has reached up to the Supreme Court. Let the decision be taken on that. 1984 riots, those who are convicted they should be punished. If I am convicted..

Rajdeep Sardesai:But they haven't been punished, sir.. 29 years later..

Jagdish Tytler: Who.. The case is going on..

Rajdeep Sardesai: 29 years..

Jagdish Tytler: But cases are going on..

Rajdeep Sardesai: Justice takes 29 years in this country?

Jagdish Tytler: Well, then ask people who are asking for 40 years for justice.. But I am saying that let special courts be formed, whatever you want do it.. Nobody is denying the fact on that.. Twice the BJP formed the government, they could have done it..

Rajdeep Sardesai: I am going to ask you in conclusion, Mr Tytler.. I know that your political career has been affected.. By what happened in 1984..

Jagdish Tytler: No.. I am not feeling bad..

Rajdeep Sardesai: It doesn't worry you at all?

Jagdish Tytler: No.. It doesn't worry me..

Rajdeep Sardesai:But do you believe that the only way to set the record straight is to allow yourself to be open to complete scrutiny?

Jagdish Tytler: 100 per cent..

Rajdeep Sardesai: Because until now the impression has been that the CBI has been used.. That commissions of enquiry have all not done the kind of job that they should have and the government of the day since 1984, since majority of the governments have been Congress governments, they have not acted. Would you concede until that public perception goes away and that can only go away if there is a transparent order given by the highest court in the land, you and the others involved will remain under the scanner?

Jagdish Tytler: Well, I will not say.. I can speak for myself.. that I would not even dream of taking a responsibility..

Rajdeep Sardesai: You will not dream of taking till you name is fully cleared?

Jagdish Tytler: No.. Not at all. I believe in principles. That I would not think of a MP or legislative assembly or anything of that sort.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Will you go and appeal this verdict?

Jagdish Tytler: There is nothing against me as yet. There is nothing.

Rajdeep Sardesai: You are saying that reinvestigation ordered by the court of the CBI does not directly indict you in any way?

Jagdish Tytler: Till now.. Nobody has even put a question mark on me except your media..

Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir, Nanavati says "there is credible evidence against Tytler that he probably had a hand in organising attacks on Sikhs recommends the government to take further action as may be found necessary". The fact is that the government of the day did not really choose to take the kind of action recommended.

Jagdish Tytler: If Surinder Singh's statement is a contradiction has this order.. that has come on me because of that.. Because there is nothing else..

Rajdeep Sardesai:So you are saying that it is now virtually your word against that of Surinder Singh.. Surinder Singh is no longer there.. It's your word against..

Jagdish Tytler: His father is there who was present.. His brother is there who was present.. His mother is there who was present.. The granthi.. The head granthi who was present.. President of the gurudwara was present.. The general secretary of the gurudwara was there.. They all are there.. Not one of them came and said..

Rajdeep Sardesai: Can I then ask you in conclusion sir.. There were 3000 Sikhs who were massacred.. There are number of widows who are living a life if penury or living virtually on the margins even today have not recovered from the scars. What would you, Mr Tytler, would like to tell all of them? What is that you are willing to hold yourself open to?

Jagdish Tytler: Well, I am open to any accusation on me which should be proved. A credible person should come and say that Mr Tytler you were there. And second thing, if you go to my constituency in Sangam Vihar, I allotted all those flats there to the widows. I made sure the children got the jobs.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Many of them still live in the extremely traumatising conditions..

Jagdish Tytler: I am telling you myself.. I lost my father during the partition time.. We cam as beggars and all practically lived in gurudwara. But I am saying I know what the trauma the ladies must be going through.

Rajdeep Sardesai: You don't believe that the Congress party, sir, has blood on it hands for 1984?

Jagdish Tytler: Well, since you are making words.. And I say, well responsibility was there. The Governor was there, the police was there..

Rajdeep Sardesai: The Prime Minister was there..

Jagdish Tytler: The Prime Minister did everything possible to stop the riots..

Rajdeep Sardesai: Okay.. Mr Tytler, I appreciate that you have come and given your viewpoint and expressed where you stand at a time like this.. Thank you very much for joining us and telling your side of story..

Jagdish Tytler: Thank you.

Rajdeep Sardesai: That was Jagdish Tytler telling us exactly where he stands a day after the court order of reopening of the case in terms of a reinvestigation of those witnesses who claim they saw Jagdish Tytler on that day of November 1, 1984.

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