'Afghans will decide what our children should see'

Afghanistan has the “best freedoms of speech” in its part of the world and it is not returning to Taliban-era restriction on individual liberties, says President Hamid Karzai. The ban on some Indian TV serials is a cultural issue and has nothing to do with politics, he told Karan Thapar on Devil’s Advocate. Afghans need time to ensure greater liberties. “Afghanistan must have the freedom to decide that this is not what our society wants, or this is not what our children should see,” he said.

Karan Thapar: President Karzai, let’s start with Pakistan. How do you view the new government in that country?

Hamid Karzai: Well, it’s an elected government, it’s a government we have good relations with. I’ve already met Prime Minister Gillani once and I’ve spoken to him on telephone many times. We feel good about it.

Karan Thapar: You had a very close effective relationship for six years with (Pakistan) President Musharraf. Are you confident that you can have a similarly effective relationship both with Prime Minister Gillani and PPP President Asif Zardari?

Hamid Karzai: We already have that and as a matter of fact, this relationship is already one we have done well with, on both sides.

Karan Thapar: So, it’s got off to a good start.

Hamid Karzai: Yes, yes, it’s got off to a very good start and we will continue it as such.

Karan Thapar: Let me put to you one of the problems we faced: the new government in Pakistan has changed the country’s policy towards the Taliban. Instead of tackling them militarily, they’re looking to make peace deals, something which General Musharraf attempted in 2006 and gave up. Does this worry you?

Hamid Karzai: Well, it has two sides to it. Talking to those who are not a part of al-Qaeda, who are not part of the hard-core extremist terrorist networks and who are not bent upon hurting the common people around the region – that’s all right. It should be done. They should be brought back to normal life and to the mainstream of society. But talking to the militant groups, the extremist groups who are – in their mindset – part of the international terrorist networks, part of the al-Qaeda, that is not correct. That should not be done and that neither us nor them nor anybody should do.

Karan Thapar: Let me put to you what they’ve done: They’re talking to Beitullah Mehsood, they’re talking to Maulana Fazlullah, both of whom have been accused of not just terrorism but one of them was accused of killing Benazir Bhutto. And recently, the Pakistan Government has released 55 militants in exchange for 20 soldiers. Dawn newspaper in Pakistan says that $2.5 million were paid to get the release of Tariq Aziz-ud-din, the former Pakistani ambassador in your country. Is this sort of thing the right way of proceeding?

Hamid Karzai: I cannot comment on that, on who’s been released and who’s not because we don’t know the details of that. I can only speak in principle that speaking to those Taliban who want to return to normal life is good, but the hard-core ones, the extremist al-Qaeda elements or other terrorist networks, who are bent upon hurting people, running schools, hurting the innocent, killing people, that is wrong.

Karan Thapar: So, peace deals or barter arrangements with Beitullah Mehsood, who is accused of killing Benazir Bhutto, that is wrong?

Hamid Karzai: With the killers of Benazir Bhutto – whoever they are – dealing is wrong.

Karan Thapar: The other thing that lies at the heart of these peace deals is an arrangement for the Pakistanis to either withdraw their troops or relocate them, and in return, for the Taliban to stop carrying out terrorist attacks within Pakistan, or attacks on security forces. Is that acceptable to you?

Hamid Karzai: If they are making deals with them to stop attacks on Pakistani installations or Pakistani forces, and if the deal holds, and if they surrender their weapons, that’s a good thing. But that deal must also include preventing these forces from carrying out any attacks outside of Pakistan, especially in Afghanistan.

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Karan Thapar: Unfortunately, that’s the one thing the deal doesn’t include.

Hamid Karzai: It has to include that. If it doesn’t, that will bring with it a lot of misunderstandings in Afghanistan.

Karan Thapar: Would people in Afghanistan think that if the deals don’t mention carrying out attacks in Afghanistan that– in a sense Pakistan–is buying peace at the cost of Afghanistan?

Hamid Karzai: That shouldn’t happen, that definitely is some thing we are concerned about and we hope that our brothers in Pakistan will not allow that.

Karan Thapar: Prime Minister Gillani, I know, has been in touch with you. Apparently, he was speaking on the phone to you about the food crisis the other day. Have you raised this with him?

Hamid Karzai: I did not raise it in this particular manner, but we both spoke of the need to fight extremism and terrorism and his voice on that was very, very clear and I am sure he means it.

Karan Thapar: But if it emerges–both to the Press and otherwise–that, in fact, the peace deals that Pakistan is striking exclude Afghanistan, thus leaving the Taliban free to carry out attacks across the border in Afghanistan, then will you take this up formally?

Hamid Karzai: If a thing like that happens, of course, we will definitely take that up and I hope that will not be the case and I hope that that will not happen. We must be very careful; we cannot, under no circumstances, allow elements that are inimical to this country or that country to operate from either territory against the other territory.

Karan Thapar: This is a very strong line you’re taking.

Hamid Karzai: Absolutely. That’s the line that I have to take.

Karan Thapar: And there is no compromise on this?

Hamid Karzai: Nobody can have a compromise on that.

Karan Thapar: So there is a message here that if the Pakistani peace deal–which is still not officially revealed–but if it excludes Afghanistan and leaves the Taliban free to carry out attacks on Afghanistan then Afghan government would be very upset.

Hamid Karzai: Oh, not upset, but extremely angry and it will do everything it can to prevent things like that.

Karan Thapar: This will affect relations.

Hamid Karzai: My friend, if a terrorist is coming to Afghanistan to attack my country, then we will speak with our brothers in Pakistan, in all friendship and brotherhood, that that should not happen.

Karan Thapar: Now, the Press in Pakistan itself reports that these deals happened with the knowledge of the Americans, sometimes– it even suggested–with the concurrence of the Americans. Does that dismay you?

Hamid Karzai: You are again quoting the Press.

Karan Thapar: But it’s the Pakistani press I’m quoting.

Hamid Karzai: But again, it’s the Press and it may not be true.

Karan Thapar: Given that you have concerns about these peace deals, have you checked with the Americans?

Hamid Karzai: No, we have not, because we know what’s going on. We and the Americans talk about issues like that regularly, rather, very regularly, and our friends in Pakistan talk about issues like that very regularly. We have a lot of contact and we have a lot of information so, we know when something’s wrong, we know it and we raise our voice to the concerned people.

Karan Thapar: You spoke at the end of April to the New York Times and you said that you would like increasingly ISAF (International Security Assistance Force) forces to target not Taliban in Afghan cities but Taliban safe hideouts, particularly those across the border in Pakistan. Given what we are not seeing happening in Pakistan, is that at all likely to happen?

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Hamid Karzai: I did not say that we must attack Taliban hideouts in Pakistan. I said we must conduct this war against terrorism in a manner that we are sooner closer to success rather than later. That means that we must go and find out where the sanctuaries of these terrorists are, find out who is financing them, find out their training elements. Now, if that is happening in Afghanistan, we should do it here; if that is happening in Pakistan, or in any other country in this region, we should exactly go and do the same.

Karan Thapar: And are you also suggesting that the ISAF forces should have the freedom to do this on both sides of the Afghan-Pakistan border?

Hamid Karzai: Pakistan is a sovereign country. I and Afghanistan cannot send ISAF to Pakistan. So, that’s very clear. We are trying to fight terrorism and fight it regionally and fight it internationally. I hope that all of us can join hands for the good of all of us and do a good job in fighting terrorism.

Karan Thapar: That’s your real message to the Pakistani Government?

Hamid Karzai: That’s my real message to all of us.

Karan Thapar: President Karzai, let’s talk about India. You’ve been President for six years. During that period, how would you characterise your relationship with India?

Hamid Karzai: More than excellent–a very, very good relationship, a relationship that Afghan people cherish–one of a lot of results for Afghanistan, as far as India and Afghanistan are concerned.

Karan Thapar: Is India doing everything that you would like it to do to put Afghanistan back on its feet, or are there other areas where you would want the Indian Government to step in and help?

Hamid Karzai: India has helped a lot. India has helped in the reconstruction of Afghanistan, India is building a new Parliament for us, India is building a very important road from Zaranj (in Iran) to Dilaram (in western Afghanistan). India is giving us a thousand scholarships a year for five years, India has invested in our electricity networking, India has done a lot more. India is not traditionally a donor country, but India has given to Afghanistan almost $800 million and for that we are very, very grateful.

Karan Thapar: Recently, your defence minister was in India and it’s believed that he asked the Indian Government for help in refurbishing Soviet era MI-35 helicopters and for fuel tankers.

Hamid Karzai: Uh-huh.

Karan Thapar: The Indians have not been immediately forthcoming. Does that worry you?

Hamid Karzai: Well, that’s a detail that I am not aware of but if Afghanistan asks India for co-operation in any field, I am sure India will not say no. We are sure of that.

Karan Thapar: The West is particularly keen that India should join ISA. Would you like to see Indian soldiers play a role in ensuring peace and security in Afghanistan?

Hamid Karzai: This is a decision for India and the international community. We would like to do all that would bring security to Afghanistan and an effective war against terrorism in the region, but not to bring something that would bring rivalries in the region.

Karan Thapar: So does that mean–and I am trying to interpret your answer–that if India’s involvement with ISAF would create problems with Pakistan, then you wouldn’t want it to happen?

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Hamid Karzai: We don’t want any problems between India and Pakistan to affect Afghanistan, as we do not want our relations with Pakistan to affect our relations with India, or our relations with India to effect our relations with Pakistan. India is a very strong, steady partner of Afghanistan and we have made it very, very clear to all the countries around, including Pakistan.

At the same time, we have reassured Pakistan that our relations with India are, in no way, going to cause harm to our relations with Pakistan. So, we are trying to bring co-operation, we are trying to bring integration to the region, not competition and rivalry.

Karan Thapar: There are two issues that concern people in India about Afghanistan. The first is the safety of Indian nationals working in development projects in your country. Four have died this year, 12 have been injured; how can you assure people that this is only a temporary phase, that Indians who come here are not going to be targeted?

Hamid Karzai: The Afghans were pained very much when the Indian workers were hurt. This is something we are extremely worried about; this is something that we really, really want to be addressed. Indian workers here have given their lives for Afghanistan and Afghanistan respects that immensely and shares the pain with India.

Karan Thapar: The second issue that has attracted a lot of attention in India is the decision by your Minister of Information and Culture to ban Indian soap operas from Afghan screens. He seems to have decided after four years that these are against Afghan culture and religion.

Hamid Karzai: No, it’s not all the Indian dramas and soap operas; it’s out of 10 or 12 that are running on Afghan television channels in the country, only two have been asked –

Karan Thapar: - I thought it was five

Hamid Karzai: No, I believe it’s only two.

Karan Thapar: But they were the most popular.

Hamid Karzai: Regardless of that. Now you have in India a case against that famous painter M F Husain because of the paintings that he had done and the case went to the courts and then courts decided in his favour. So, these are cultural issues, issues of interpretations by societies, nothing to do with politics or relations.

Karan Thapar: I take your point completely. You said that these are cultural issues and that’s why I want to quote to you what Jahid Mohseni, the Director of Tolo TV, says. He says that these serials have become an icon for free speech. Abdul Mubaris, the President of your own National Union of Journalists, says, “There is nothing against our religion in these shows, we strongly believe these actions will endanger our democracy,” and even your own Deputy Minister for Women Affairs, Najiba Sharif says, “I am worried that there will be another Taliban era ahead of us”. Are they all wrong?

Hamid Karzai: That’s really going too far.

Karan Thapar: Najiba?

Hamid Karzai: Everybody that you have quoted. First of all a drama is not freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is doable, presentable in a lot of other ways and Afghanistan has, perhaps, the best freedoms of speech in this part of the world, maybe close to Indian freedom of speech.

You look at our media, you look at our television channels – politically, the freedom of speech in Afghanistan is guaranteed more than any other country in this part of the world.

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Now, cultural issues are different. You have in India, a board of censorship for Indian movies, you have in the United States for television programmes warnings, parental guidance, this, that. Now, Afghanistan began a journey six years ago in which it has gone too far, indeed.

It took you 50 years, it took the Americans 200 years, it took us six years to get where we wanted to be. But, Afghanistan must have the freedom to decide that this is not what our society wants, or this is not what our children should see, and stop it.

Karan Thapar: Let me ask you, how far should this freedom go? Once again, I am quoting The Guardian but they report that your Parliament is considering a ban on make-up, on men’s jeans, on long hair, even on couples talking in public. Would that be going to far?

Hamid Karzai: That will not happen – no.

Karan Thapar: It won’t happen?

Hamid Karzai: It will definitely not happen.

Karan Thapar: That’s a personal assurance you are giving me?

Hamid Karzai: It’s the assurance of the Afghan people.

Karan Thapar: When I last interviewed you – in 1992, you were the Deputy Foreign Minister in Sibghatullah Mojaddedi’s government and at the time you said that Indo-Afghan relations were affected by Indian’s support for the Soviet invasion and it would take many years for the relationship to come back to where it was. Today, 16 years later, is that friendship fully restored?

Hamid Karzai: Absolutely! India did magnificently well in Afghanistan in the past six years and the Afghan people see that clearly.

Karan Thapar: The other thing you said in that interview 16 years ago, when you were Deputy Foreign Minister, was that if Afghanistan had a question asked of it, it could consider supporting a just movement for Kashmiri independence, or accession to Pakistan, and you also warned India about how it treats its Muslim population.

Hamid Karzai: I don’t remember that.

Karan Thapar: But that’s not your position today?

Hamid Karzai: No, but I don’t think that I’ve given an answer like that, ever. You have a copy of that answer?

Karan Thapar: Yes, it was Eyewitness, May 1992.

Hamid Karzai: Maybe you interview somebody else.

Karan Thapar: No, it was you.

Hamid Karzai: You sure?

Karan Thapar: Absolutely, one hundred per cent sure it was you and, in fact, it was in May of 1992, done in the Foreign Office in Kabul.

Hamid Karzai: Ah! I can tell you that those are not my words precisely but anyway, the issue of Kashmir is something for India and Pakistan to resolve amicably between themselves.

Karan Thapar: I am glad to hear that. Many people in India would be glad to hear that, but your exact words in May 1992 about India’s Muslim population were, “Our relations with India will very much be affected depending on how the Muslim community in India are treated,” and I asked you –

Hamid Karzai: What if you were asking about Muslims in India, that would be my answer today, too. Muslims are a great part of India, Muslims are a great contribution to Indian civilisation and India treats them as such, so I see no conflict there.

Karan Thapar: India treats them as part of the country and treats them as great people

Hamid Karzai: Absolutely, absolutely! Well, you had Presidents from the Muslims in India, you had Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed, you had Professor Abdul Kalam, you had Dr Zakir Hussain, you’ve treated them exceptionally well.

Karan Thapar: So there’s no problem about how India treats Muslims?

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Hamid Karzai: Not at all, who says that? In all walks of life!

Karan Thapar: Similarly, in May 1992, I asked you whether Afghanistan would support any movement for accession to Pakistan by Kashmir or any movement for independence, your answer was, “We support every movement that is just. We will very much support any movement that we consider just”; but I take it again – that was of that time, that’s not your answer today.

Hamid Karzai: Now, this is something else you’re saying – well that’s a good answer! If I’ve said everything that’s just is good, we’ll support the same justice today. Thanks very much, I’m running out of time.

Karan Thapar: My last question: How do you today view Indian democracy and secularism?

Hamid Karzai: Indian democracy is a beacon to the rest of the world and Indian democracy is something that Afghanistan can and should learn a lot from.

Karan Thapar: Indians take a lot of pride in the fact that you studied at Himachal University, that you stayed for a couple of years in Simla. Does that association mean as much to you as it does to Indians?

Hamid Karzai: It means a lot more to me, a lot more.

Karan Thapar: India is a country that means a lot to you, personally

Hamid Karzai: Absolutely because I am a product of India’s education and of the values that they have – Gandhiji’s values are of immense importance to me and surely to a lot of other people around the world and I hope India will remember that.

Karan Thapar: So, there’s a little bit of India always inside Hamid Karzai?

Hamid Karzai: Oh, a lot of it, a lot!

Karan Thapar: President Karzai, a pleasure talking to you.