Click to play videoNew Delhi: Magsaysay Award winner and Anna Hazare's chief lieutenant Arvind Kejriwal defended Anna saying that the anti-Congress stand in Hisar by-polls is not political. He also came down strongly on the critics of Anna Hazare who say his call to vote against the Congress in the upcoming Hisar by-polls is the first step towards electoral politics.
Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil's Advocate. Recent comments by Anna Hazare have created widespread concern. But has he been correctly understood or has he been misunderstood? That's a key question I should put to his chief lieutenant Magsaysay Award winner Arvind Kejriwal.
Mr Kejriwal, let's start with Anna Hazare's decision to campaign against Congress in next week's Lok Sabha elections in Hisar and his threat to do the same in the state elections next year if the Jan Lokpal Bill is not passed by Parliament during the winter session. How do you justify this deliberate and unprovoked anti-Congress stand?
Arvind Kejriwal: You see, it is a duty of the ruling party to get any Bill passed in Parliament. Now there has been so much anger against corruption in the country, there has been such a demand for a strong anti-corruption law. A campaign has been going for a Jan Lokpal Bill. Despite that the Congress, the ruling party has been playing politics and the way they have tried to crush the movement at every stage. Now all that Anna is saying that if they do not pass the Jan Lokpal Bill by winter session, then he will go and campaign against Congress.
Karan Thapar: Except for the fact that why does Anna believe that if the Jan Lokpal Bill isn't passed in the winter session, the Congress alone is to blame. The UPA is a coalition. Why won't Anna campaign against the NCP as they too will be standing for the elections? They are equally responsible for the failure.
Arvind Kejriwal: That correction I can make through your interview. It is basically what he means is the UPA only. It is just because that the states which are going to elections in the next few months are where none of the UPA partners have a stake.
Karan Thapar: So Congress you are telling is the short form of the UPA as a whole. But in fact the truth is, that there are many parties in Parliament that have reservations either in part or in whole with the Jan Lokpal Bill. Why isn't Anna, if the Bill fails to pass, attributing some measure of responsibility to them and blame to them. Except for the fact that these parties too will be needed particularly for those sections of the Jan Lokpal Bill that require a constitutional amendment? Why will he not campaign against BSP and SP in Uttar Pradesh and Shiromani Akali Dal in Punjab?
Arvind Kejriwal: Because Jan Lokpal Bill does not require any constitutional amendment.
Karan Thapar: If you want to bring MPs under its ambit as the Jan Lokpal requires, then that's 102. If you want to bring the disciplinary control of government employees under the Jan Lokpal, you have to tackle 311. Those require constitutional amendments.
Arvind Kejriwal: No they don't require constitutional amendments. What is written is that MPs will be subjected to Jan Lokpal Bill taking into consideration Article 105.
Karan Thapar: That is therefore, an amendment.
Arvind Kejriwal: It is not an amendment.
Karan Thapar: You have done interviews with me. Annaji was present where you have said yourself that if a constitutional amendment is required, why shouldn't it be done. You said there are 102, then why not one more.
Arvind Kejriwal: I agree with you we have said it. But we have got examined subsequently. It does not require constitutional amendment.
Karan Thapar: What about 311?
Arvind Kejriwal: 311 also does not require constitutional amendment. In fact we are in touch with some of the state governments, some of the state governments are likely to announce. What is being suggested is that a disciplinary action would be recommended against an officer which will be binding on the appointing authority.
Karan Thapar: I won't quarrel with you whether 105 or 311 require constitutional amendments or not. Let me simply say this, leading members of the government and the Opposition, Arun Jaitley, are firmly of the belief that it does require a constitutional amendment. But leave that aside, I want to comeback to the key point. If the Jan Lokpal Bill doesn't pass, why won't Anna also campaign against parties like the Samajwadi Party or the BSP or the Shiromani Akali Dal that also have expressed public reservations against parts of the bill? Why won't he campaign against them? Why only UPA parties?
Arvind Kejriwal: They are not involved in the passing of the Bill. It is UPA that has to ensure the passage of the Bill in Parliament. So if UPA does not pass this bill, Anna campaigns against them.
Karan Thapar: Depending upon how you do the numbers, the UPA may well need BSP and SP support. Many a times in the past when UPA numbers were tested.
Arvind Kejriwal: So we will do it. We will take their support.
Karan Thapar: So if the BSP doesn't give support, why not also say that you will campaign against the BSP? Why exclude them?
Arvind Kejriwal: I don't think so. It is the duty of the government. As we said, it is the duty of the ruling party, the ruling coalition, it is the duty of the government to get any Bill passed in Parliament.
Karan Thapar: But the ruling coalition if it doesn't have the numbers on its own, then they will need the support of BSP and SP.
Arvind Kejriwal: It has the numbers.
Karan Thapar: Well that's a moot point. People have done calculations. Let's not go into that. I am putting to you a simple proposition, if the BSP and SP numbers are necessary and they are not available to the UPA, will Anna then also campaign against them?
Arvind Kejriwal: Let us see. Let them bring the law in Parliament. Let us see.
Karan Thapar: It's very interesting. You are equivocating over BSP, SP, you are not equivocating against Congress or any UPA party. Why there is a difference in a treatment?
Arvind Kejriwal: Because it is not the duty of BSP to present the Bill in Parliament. It is not the duty of SP to present the Bill in Parliament. It is the duty of the ruling coalition to get the Bill passed in Parliament.
Karan Thapar: It is a very well narrow base upon which you are building upon but let me put this to you. People around are saying it and people in ordinary life are saying it that this anti-Congress stand is proof, one is that Anna is now gently but steadily making his way into electoral politics. Indirectly but nonetheless he is doing it. Can you accept that?
Arvind Kejriwal: I don't know how would you say that.
Karan Thapar: Because he is telling people whom to vote for and whom not to vote for. That's a participatory role even if he is not standing himself.
Arvind Kejriwal: But that is what every citizen's ought to do.
Karan Thapar: Suppose Anna has a role above politics. He is stepping down of the podium and mingling with the frame. That's the change that is happening.
Arvind Kejriwal: I can clarify if you give me one minute. In my colony, suppose my roads are bad and I go to the authorities telling ten times and they don't repair the roads. I comeback and I campaign for the ruling party saying that don't vote for this party because this party is not doing their job. Am I getting into electoral politics? Just one second.
Karan Thapar: You are playing a role in telling people how to vote. When Anna takes sides and that's what he is doing, he is taking sides against Congress. He is in danger of losing his credibility. Your credibility as a person who is a social campaigner is so different to Anna's who is taken as an icon. Is not that a danger for you?
Arvind Kejriwal: I don't think so. That is exactly what I said. Anna is taking up a larger issue. Someone is taking up the issue of road in his locality. Anna is taking a larger issue of anti-corruption or corruption in this country. And Anna says we need a strong Lokpal Bill. And if you don't deliver a strong Lokpal Bill, the country has waited for 42 years; I would encourage people to vote you out of power.
Karan Thapar: You are not scared that stepping into this electoral frame and taking sides against Congress may damage Anna's esteemed credibility.
Arvind Kejriwal: On the contrary, the kind of feedback that we are getting is that people say that this is the right move.
Karan Thapar: Let me then bring up a second issue. Anna Hazare has declared that he would be campaigning against the Congress candidate in Hisar because the Congress leadership has not given him a letter supporting the Jan Lokpal Bill. But by implications quite clearly of not campaigning against either two is despite the fact that they come from parties and families that are riddled with corruption. Is it then a contradiction for a man who is a fighter against corruption?
Arvind Kejriwal: As I said this entire campaign is on Jan Lokpal Bill. Now as far as Hisar is concerned, I had gone to Hisar. We had a meeting of about 40-42 very important citizens in Hisar. And it was decided in the coming poll how to make Lokpal into an issue. So if you ask all the candidates that you give it in writing, all the candidates will give it to you. So please ask the party presidents to give it in the writing.
Karan Thapar: I am taking your point. I am putting to you that the consequences of your strategy of not campaigning against two candidates who come from parties and families riddled with corruption.
Arvind Kejriwal: Anna's call is don't vote for Congress. But when you are voting for others, look for candidate jo charitravaan hai, jo imandar hai (who is of a good character and honest). He is not saying vote for this and vote for that.
Karan Thapar: But why is Anna not recognising the obvious taint of corruption and hands over the parties and families that represent the other candidates that speaking out against it.
Arvind Kejriwal: He is not giving a character certificate to each of the candidates that this guy is bad and don't vote for him. It is for the local people to do it.
Karan Thapar: I will take that as your answer but I will point out that many would think that it is very dubious and once again it's equivocation with principle rather a stand that's firm. Let me put something else to you. Anna Hazare has decided to campaign against the Congress because they have not given a letter supporting the Jan Lokpal but at the same time he has allowed himself to be either misled or fooled into believing that the BJP supports the Jan Lokpal Bill. It's absolutely crystal clear from what the BJP has been saying publicly that they don't support the Jan Lokpal Bill. Why is Anna not taking that into account? Why is he being fooled by a letter by Mr Gadkari?
Arvind Kejriwal: You see whether a political party that would deliver or not will be proved in Parliament.
Karan Thapar: So what is the value of the letter that he has got from Gadkari?
Arvind Kejriwal: Listen, what is the value of a manifesto? When elections are held, manifestoes and promises are made, it is on the basis of the past record and the promises on the basis of which people will go out and vote. Now if the BJP or any other political party does not deliver, this country goes to election in some or the other part.
Karan Thapar: People are distrustful of the manifestoes and you are doing the opposite. You are putting faith in Mr Gadkari's letter knowing that the BJP in interviews on this particular, specifically on the 4th of September, Arun Jaitley made it clear that they have serious disagreements with the Jan Lokpal Bill and do not support it. How then you are allying Mr Gadkari's letter to fool you into believing the opposite?
Arvind Kejriwal: Are you trying to say that the Congress did not give the letter because they were much more honest and they didn't want to give the letter.
Karan Thapar: I am not commenting on Congress. I am commenting on Anna's acceptance and forgive the word gullibility in accepting the BJP's letter at face value.
Arvind Kejriwal: It's not just about BJP. That you can charge with other candidates also.
Karan Thapar: Here Anna has developed an strategy on the basis of a letter from Gadkari and from your answers now you are accepting that you can't trust the letter.
Arvind Kejriwal: You can put the same charge against other candidates also. There are other candidates also that they have given in writing they support Jan Lokpal Bill. You can put that charge against them also. And there were lot of people when we were discussing
Karan Thapar: But this not quite an answer to my question.
Arvind Kejriwal: Can I answer? Actually I am not very good at my language so I don't have this thing of putting my answers in one or two lines.
Karan Thapar: Arvindji this is not about language. I am asking why are you being gullible?
Arvind Kejriwal: Give me time to answer. So if any of these parties actually goes back on their word, next elections in UP, we will go out and say don't believe in BJP. Because BJP gave a letter and did not deliver.
Karan Thapar: Do you notice the difference between your treatment of Congress and BJP. In Congress's case they haven't given a letter, you are campaigning against them. Even a letter you reconcile with your answers is possibly fraudulent, yet you have been gullible enough to accept it.
Arvind Kejriwal: We don't know. Whethet the letter Chautala has given also fraudulent
Karan Thapar: Let's stick to BJP.
Arvind Kejriwal: Why?
Karan Thapar: I will tell you why the BJP because on the 4th of September 2011 in this very programme Arun Jaitley made crystal clear in great detail that the BJP only agrees with one of Anna Hazare's three striking points. And beyond that BJP disagrees and does not accept the Jan Lokpal formulation for handling the higher judiciary, for handling MPs, for disciplinary control of a government employee, for the appointment mechanism, for power to tap phones and even possibly over the CBI. So how can then you accept Gadkari's letter which says to you that it supports Jan Lokpal Bill? When Arun Jaitley made it clear that there is range of problems they have with the Jan Lokpal. This is why I asked.
Arvind Kejriwal: You see all the issues that you have raised, these are issues that would have been discussed at various platforms and these are issues which are possible to be resolved. For instance, as far as MPs is concerned, now we discussed with the government also, we had a discussion with the BJP also, we had a discussion with many other parties and it was discussed that we put it in a particular formulation, it'll be acceptable.
Karan Thapar: Mr Kejriwal, did you hear your own words? All the issues that you've raised are issues that can be resolved, meaning they have to still be resolved. Therefore, at this moment they are not resolved, and therefore, at this moment the BJP has problems until you resolve them. Yet, you've accepted Gadkari's letter claiming he supports the Jan Lokpal. Your own answer shows that you can't believe that Gadkari is correct and true.
Arvind Kejriwal: You see, Gadkari's letter is right or wrong cannot be decided in Karan Thapar's show, it has to be decided on the floor of Parliament.
Karan Thapar: You have to have a basis for trusting and believing and I'm putting to you, you have no basis for that.
Arvind Kejriwal: I am depending on the letter, I'm not depending on Karan Thapar's show.
Karan Thapar: You're taking it at face value even though you know…
Arvind Kejriwal: Right now I'm taking it at face value because…
Karan Thapar: Even though you have good reasons to distrust it because you had Arun Jaitley on this programme pointing out the differences.
Arvind Kejriwal: How do I say that Arun Jaitley was right and Gadkari is not right or Gadkari was right and Arun Jaitley is not right, because it was your program, so you tend to believe that your program is right. What I'm trying to say is that if any of these parties actually go back on their words, at least first give it to us in writing. Give the people in writing, make a commitment as a manifesto. Congress has not even done it.
Karan Thapar: I think it's only fair that the audience should hear your answer, but I've pointed out that I think are the problems with it, but it's right and fair that the audience should hear your answer and judge for themselves. Let me come to a third worrying point. Anna Hazare once again is saying that Parliament must pass his Jan Lokpal Bill in the winter session and none other. I put it to you that this is not just disregard, it is defiance of Parliament's right to pass whatever bill it deems fit. How do you justify this demand?
Arvind Kejriwal: You see discussions have already been going on for quite some time. The Jan Lokpal Bill has been drafted after large number of consultations and at Ramlila Maidan also we have been saying that whoever wants to have a discussion is most welcome on the stage.
Karan Thapar: But you're denying Parliament the right to pass a bill different to the Jan Lokapl one.
Arvind Kejriwal: We're making a demand of Parliament, we can't direct Parliament.
Karan Thapar: Making a demand of Parliament is pretty close to giving a direction if you threaten to go on a fast yet again.
Arvind Kejriwal: As a citizen he has every right to say that this particular law is good and it should be passed and if is not passed I'll protest. He's doing it, if the people accept it.
Karan Thapar: Can I put a simple litmus test question to you? Does Anna Hazare accept an honour, the right of Parliament to pass a strong Lokpal Bill, but which may be in very significant respect different to his Jan Lokapl.
Arvind Kejriwal: He has already said that if there are good suggestions, they must be incorporated and if after the passage of the bill, he feels that it was changed and it has changed for the better, he may accept it.
Karan Thapar: He may accept it? He still deserves the right to expression?
Arvind Kejriwal: Of course he deserves the right as a citizen.
Karan Thapar: So he's putting himself above Parliament?
Arvind Kejriwal: Of course he's putting himself above Parliament, every citizen is above Parliament. Let me just caution you, every citizen is above Parliament and the citizen has the right to say that Parliament is not…
Karan Thapar: In your eyes, therefore, the supremacy of Parliament is not final?
Arvind Kejriwal: No it is not. The citizens are more supreme than Parliament. It is there in the Constitution.
Karan Thapar: So you're saying to me that Anna Hazare is knowingly putting himself above Parliament.
Arvind Kejriwal: Anna Hazare, or every citizen of the country is more supreme than Parliament. I think the Constitution of India says that.
Karan Thapar: Alright, let's leave it there. Once again, let the audience decide how to respond to that answer. In an interview to the New York Times on October 4, when asked if there was disunity between yourself and Prashant Bhushan on the one hand, and Anna Hazare on the other, Anna Hazare said, 'I will try and change them, there were some ego problems. I was not getting the right feedback. They are good people, but I need to change them and I will change them.' Are there problems in your relationship with Anna Hazare?
Arvind Kejriwal: There is absolutely no problem. In fact, Anna has already sent out a clarification that this is not at all what he said.
Karan Thapar: I have seen Anna's clarification, he says he was misquoted. But the New York Times, which is a highly reputable paper has a reputation for getting its quotations correct, stands by its story.
Arvind Kejriwal: I have spoken to Anna, Anna says that. Why would Anna change his stand in three days? If it was on October 4, we're now on October 7.
Karan Thapar: It's not just what Anna said, or allegedly said to the New York Times that creates suspicion in people's mind. This is what he posted on his blog on September 17, just three weeks ago and barely two and half weeks before the New York Times article. He said, 'Many a times people, even those who are close to me make statements that do not collaborate with my thinking,' and then he adds, 'henceforth, through the medium of Internet, I will personally make sure that my thoughts and views reach over to the people.' That seems to corroborate what he allegedly said to The New York Times.
Arvind Kejriwal: You see, he has recently said that there are people who have been paid huge amounts of money to create a fissure in the team. Nowhere he is referring to people close to him, there are people in Pune and around Ralegaon Siddhi that he is referring to.
Karan Thapar: Not Prashant Bhushan and Arvind Kejriwal?
Arvind Kejriwal: No, I can't name those people that he is referring to, I know them.
Karan Thapar: So, you're absolutely clear about one thing that when he says, 'even those who are close to me,' it's not you, it's not Prashant Bhushan.
Arvind Kejriwal: No, not at all. I can say that with all authority.
Karan Thapar: My last question. Many people say that Anna Hazare's two prime qualities are his goodness and his simplicity, but sometimes people say, 'is Team Anna taking advantage of that goodness and simplicity?'
Arvind Kejriwal: Do you think he was taken advantage of in the last 20 years that he's been fighting? This is his 16th indefinite fast. Who was taking advantage? If you've known Anna, he is simple, but he is very politically sharp. He knows what he's saying.
Karan Thapar: Let that answer be the end of this programme. Pleasure talking to you.
Arvind Kejriwal: Thank You.
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