Devil's Advocate: Uma Bharti

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Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil’s Advocate. As India prepares for a spate of state elections, how relevant is Uma Bharti and her Bharatiya Janshakti Party? That’s the question I shall ask today in an exclusive interview to the lady herself.

Ms Bharti, one year after you broke with the BJP, your own party, the Bharatiya Janshakti Party, has failed to take off and you yourself have lost your credibility. Have you ceased to be relevant?

Uma Bhrati: I think there are two questions in one question. One is the relevance of the party and second is the credibility of the party and the person - me.

Karan Thapar: And I am saying both of them have collapsed.

Uma Bharti: No, no. What I am saying is that the credibility is always dependent on ideology, on the character of the person -- in which I can say that I am more credible than anybody in Indian politics right now.

Karan Thapar: You mean you are the most credible politician in India today?

Uma Bharti: Yes.

Karan Thapar: You mean that?

Uma Bharti: Yes.

Karan Thapar: That’s not an exaggeration?

Uma Bharti: No.

Karan Thapar: All right. Let’s come to the facts. Last year, in your won home state Madhya Pradesh, you contested three by-elections. You lost all three. In Vidisha, you came third with just 22 per cent of the votes. In Pandhana, you came third with 13 per cent of the votes. And you say you are the most credible politician in India!

Uma Bharti: Yes, because credibility cannot be counted by votes. It can (only) be counted by ideology. If you compromise on ideology, then you lose your credibility.

Karan Thapar: But if your ideology is being rejected, how does it matter?

Uma Bharti: Karan, let it be my show also. Let me say something. What I am saying is that you see BJP's record and you see Congress’ record. When the BJP was in the ruling, could the Congress win any by-election? And when the Congress was in ruling, when Digvijay Singh was ruling for 10 years in Madhya Pradesh, the BJP lost all the by-elections.

Karan Thapar: No doubt. But let’s stick to your own record rather than BJP record or Congress record. May I come back to Vidisha to start with? In Vidisha, not only did you lose, but the BJP had 1,20,000 votes more than you, Congress had 36,000 more than you. In Pandhana, BJP's vote-share was three-and-a-half times greater than yours, the Congress vote-share was two-and-a-half times greater than yours. Your party is irrelevant. It has no credibility with voters in your own state.

Uma Bharti: Now again, I shall separate the issues. Relevance is a different thing, credibility is a different thing. The BJP is a more than 50-year-old party. They have lost most of their deposits in Uttar Pradesh in the recent by-elections. And about the credibility, again I will say, tell me which party has got the credibility? The Congress used to use Mahatma Gandhi's name…

Karan Thapar: But you are going to the Congress. Stick to Bharatiya Janshakti Party, that’s your party.

Uma Bharti: No, no. What I am saying is that credibility is (counted) with ideology. And I am saying that in eight months, if I’ve come even fourth or fifth in a state like Madhya Pradesh, where there is a no third party except the BJP and Congress, for that you must appreciate me.

Karan Thapar: Ms Uma Bharti, I will appreciate you. The problem is that even in your own constituency Malhara, you failed and you failed badly. Compared to December 2003, when you stood as a BJP candidate, this time around, when your candidate Rita Yadav stood, the amount of vote had fallen by 40 per cent and your share of vote had fallen by 60 per cent. If you can’t retain your own constituency in your won home state, what hope have you got?

Uma Bharti: (For) Bada Malhara constituency, the BJP couldn’t find a candidate from BJP, you know?

Karan Thapar: But their candidate won and your candidate lost and you were the polling agent yourself, which is even worse.

Uma Bharti: Just a minute. Because you keep on saying, I have no time to say anything. So, the programme should be like that that the other person should be allowed to speak. What I want to say is that in Bada Malhara constituency, the BJP couldn’t find anybody in their own party. And they had to field a candidate, who is from Communist background. So, even if they won there, they did not win. They had no confidence to win…

Karan Thapar: Can I interrupt? Clearly, if they won, it suggests that people of your constituency prefer a BJP candidate, who, as you say a Communist, rather than your own chosen candidate. They have rejected your nominee in favour of a BJP nominee, that’s what count.

Uma Bharti: No, they didn’t…

Karan Thapar: They did and your candidate lost.

Uma Bharti: In Bada Malhara, in Vidisha actually elections did not take place in a democratic system. There was a total loot…

Karan Thapar: Now you are sounding like a bad loser.

Uma Bharti: No, I am not. I am not sounding like a bad loser because there is an election petition in the court. And the petition has been admitted. So when the court accepted (the petition), that means something is wrong with it.

Karan Thapar: Let me slightly change the subject and come back. Let me come back to what you said just a few weeks before those by-elections.

Uma Bharti: Karan, again, I have to say something.

Karan Thapar: Happily, I will give you full chance. Just a few weeks before those by-elections, you said about the BJP government in Madhya Pradesh, I am quoting you, "Saffron rule in Madhya Pradesh will collapse because of its own mistakes and after its fall, we (means your Bharatiya Janshakti Party) will form the government. What happened? The BJP government is intact, your party, instead, has collapsed.

Uma Bharti: First, I did not make this statement, but I agree…

Karan Thapar: You did, you said it to PTI on the 25th of February.

Uma Bharti: Just a minute, just a minute, just a minute, just a minute. I said BJP rule, not saffron rule. Because BJP is not saffron, BJP is green. BJP is totally coloured with Jinnah's colour…

Karan Thapar: The point still holds. The BJP government is still intact, your party is collapsing.

Uma Bharti: Now come to second thing. My party is a nine-month-old baby.

Karan Thapar: Very interesting. At nine months, babies are beginning to stand up and walk. Your little baby is unable to do anything. That’s the point I am making here.

Uma Bharti: Give me three years.

Karan Thapar: Three years!

Uma Bharti: Yes.

Karan Thapar: Three years!

Uma Bharti: I will give my performance only in 2008. Before that you should not be talking about the relevance of Janshakti. Talking about the irrelevance of Janshakti, talking about the credibility of Janshakti is highly unjustified because a nine-month-old baby cannot be compared to 100 years or 50 years old parties.

Karan Thapar: I am bringing up the credibility of Janshakti for the simple reason that on the 16th of January, that’s one month ago, you said that, in fact, in 2009, the Bharatiya Janshakti Party would win 50 seats in Lok Sabha.

Uma Bharti: That’s why I am saying give me three years.

Karan Thapar: Three years? In 2009, you are going to win 50 seats in Lok Sabha?

Uma Bharti: That I have said in 2006.

Karan Thapar: You mean that?

Uma Bharti: Yes.

Karan Thapar: 50 seats?

Uma Bharti: Yes.

Karan Thapar: And did you know the other thing you said? You said, in 2015, the Bharatiya Janshakti Party will come to power in Delhi on its own.

Uma Bharti: Yes.

Karan Thapar: You will form the government in Delhi?

Uma Bharti: Definitely, we will - not me - we will.

Karan Thapar: When you say "we will", will you Uma Bharti be the prime minister?

Uma Bharti: No. There will be more than 90 per cent of the BJP with us at that time…

Karan Thapar: Will it be the BJP that comes to power or the Bharatiya Janshakti Party?

Uma Bharti: I don’t know who will be the prime minister. The Janshakti Party will form the government and it will have a prime minister from the Janshakti Party.

Karan Thapar: In which case, will it be Uma Bharti?

Uma Bharti: I can’t say that.

Karan Thapar: But who will it be? Someone from your party?

Uma Bharti: How can I say that?

Karan Thapar: In other words, you are either saying that you will be the prime minister of India in 2015 or you will be the person who creates the prime minister.

Uma Bharti: No, what I will say is that the Janshakti will be spread to the level that we will be able to form the government at the Centre and the Janshakti will have its own prime minister in the country.

Karan Thapar: And that prime minister could be Uma Bharti?

Uma Bharti: I cannot say that.

Karan Thapar: But you are not ruling out the possibility?

Uma Bharti: No, but I cannot say that.

Karan Thapar: You know people listening to this will be smiling, if they are not laughing. They will say, Uma Bharti lives in her dreams.

Uma Bharti: I am laughing now.

Karan Thapar: They will say she lives in her dreams. She has lost contact with reality.

Uma Bharti: Because people have to come with me. People like you have to come with me. You have to leave your air-conditioned office and you have to come with me in the train, in cars on the road and you have to talk to the people and you have to see while I am talking to the people. I will tell you something Karan, you have lost touch with reality. Otherwise, you would not have compared my party with the Congress and the BJP. You are being so impractical now…

Karan Thapar: Have you kept in touch with reality or are you dreaming?

Uma Bharti: Yes, I am always (in touch of reality). See, I told you, don’t even talk about the credibility and relevance of my party right now. I told you this.

Karan Thapar: Let me then test a simple thing. You say you are in touch with reality, I am saying you have lost all touch with reality.

Uma Bharti: Give me an example.

Karan Thapar: Let me test it. You are putting up 18 candidates in the forthcoming elections in Punjab and 36 candidates in Uttarakhand; and I am not counting the Independents who may be supported by you. People don’t believe you are going to win even one. They say, what you are going to do is spoil the chances of the BJP. So, I put it to you, are you a serious politician or are you just a spoiler of other people’s chances?

Uma Bharti: How do you begin (in politics)? The BJP used to lose its deposits in the Jan Sangh days for 30 years. This is how you begin.

Karan Thapar: Come back to your party. You are going to, therefore, lose your deposits for 30 years too?

Uma Bharti: Karan, this is a reality. You have to be in contact with reality. Don’t live in dreams and don’t imagine things about others. You live in reality.

Karan Thapar: Do the people of India really think Uma Bharti will be the prime minister?

Uma Bharti: The Jan Sangh and the BJP used to lose their deposits for almost 30 years. And they were such a big and great party! So when we’re fighting in Uttarakhand, I don’t claim we’re going to win all the seats. And the second thing, which you have said, that my party’s performance is going to damage the BJP. No, (it's not my party), the sins of the BJP, the ill-doings of the BJP are going to damage BJP.

Karan Thapar: All right. That’s what you say. The voters will have their say. Let’s turn now to the new tactic that you seem to have started - making personal, intemperate and very derogatory remarks about the leaders of the BJP. You do this because it is the only way you can attract attention?

Uma Bharti: Give me an example.

Karan Thapar: I will give you several. You said of Rajnath Singh, the President of the BJP, that he is a criminal and you said that he is corrupt. Do you have any proof of this?

Uma Bharti: No, I never said it.

Karan Thapar: You said it.

Uma Bharti: No, I am sorry.

Karan Thapar: I am going to quote you. "When will Rajnath Singh give up politics of crime and corruption?" November the 4th. That clearly suggests that he is criminal and corrupt.

Uma Bharti: No, no, I am so sorry.

Karan Thapar: You said it.

Uma Bharti: Never ever.

Karan Thapar: So, you withdraw these words?

Uma Bharti: Yes. No, no, I am not withdrawing it, I didn’t say it. I condemn these words and I condemn the person and the paper, which quoted it.

Karan Thapar: “When will Rajnath Singh give up the politics of crime and corruption?”, November the 4th. You withdraw it?

Uma Bharti: No, I am not withdrawing it. I did not say it, how can I withdraw it? I did not deliver it.

Karan Thapar: But you are quoted rightly in the papers.

Uma Bharti: No, I don’t know which paper it is.

Karan Thapar: Several.

Uma Bharti: I condemn the papers. No, no, I did not read it also.

Karan Thapar: You didn’t read it?

Uma Bharti: No.

Karan Thapar: Let me give you another example. Last year in November, you said of Atal Bihari Vajpayee and of LK Advani, "Atalji and Advaniji are in the grip of power brokers. They are like widowed aunts, whose feet everybody touches, but whose advice nobody listens to."

Uma Bharti: I said this.

Karan Thapar: Do you think this is the right thing to say?

Uma Bharti: Yes, definitely.

Karan Thapar: You called them father figures when you were in that party.

Uma Bharti: They are father figures even now.

Karan Thapar: And you say this of father figures!

Uma Bharti: What’s wrong in that?

Karan Thapar: I thought Hindu sanskriti required that one is respectful to people…

Uma Bharti: I am respectful to them.

Karan Thapar: This is respect?

Uma Bharti: Yes, I am showing sympathy to them.

Karan Thapar: This is sympathy?

Uma Bharti: Yes.

Karan Thapar: You called them widowed aunts.

Uma Bharti: Yes.

Karan Thapar: You said they are in grip of power brokers.

Uma Bharti: Yes, this is how they are right now. Everybody touches their feet, but nobody listens to them.

Karan Thapar: You seem to have lost all respect for them.

Uma Bharti: No, I love them, I respect them, but this is the reality I am saying.

Karan Thapar: You love them so much to call them “in the grip of power brokers”?

Uma Bharti: Yes, they are in the grip of power brokers. And they were in the grip of power brokers since 2002, not before that.

Karan Thapar: For many people, you are the symbol of Hindu sanskriti. And this is how you talk of people, who are 80?

Uma Bharti: This is Hindu sanskriti I am talking. Because I feel so sorry about the ladies, who live in the old days as a widow in their parents’ house and everybody touches their feet, but nobody listen to them. So, right now this is the condition of Atalji and Advaniji - nobody listens to them. Otherwise, what happened last year couldn’t have happened.

Karan Thapar: Uma Bharti, let me move beyond intemperate and personal remarks you made about the BJP leaders, let me say…

Uma Bharti: No, this is not personal remark at all.

Karan Thapar: This is not personal?

Uma Bharti: No.

Karan Thapar: Calling someone a widowed aunt, saying in the grip of power brokers is not personal?

Uma Bharti: They are in grip of power brokers, what is personal in that? It is a political remark I am making, that great leaders of a great party are in the grip of power brokers. It is not a personal remark at all. Comparing Sonia Gandhi with Monika Lewinsky is a personal remark. That was a personal remark made by our general secretary.

Karan Thapar: Calling Rajnath Singh in the grip of crime and corruption politics is personal. You are conveniently denying it now, but you said it.

Uma Bharti: No, I didn’t say it. What I said, I repeat.

Karan Thapar: Let me…

Uma Bharti: No, I have been misquoted. I know what is it. Now you have to give me a chance to speak.

Karan Thapar: Go ahead.

Uma Bharti: That is that, actually some people are very angry with the BJP, media also. So, what I said, they also put their mind in the words.

Karan Thapar: Journalists are putting their words in your mouth?

Uma Bharti: No, not in my mouth, their own sentiments in the words. See, what I said in Uttar Pradesh, I said that before ’97, Kalyan Singh gave a very good government in ’91 and he was a very good chief minister. And he did not support crime and corruption at all.

Karan Thapar: I am not talking about Kalyan Singh.

Uma Bharti: No, no, just a minute. But after ’97, when they made the government again, they took the support of criminals and corrupt people and that injury was done by Rajnath Singh. That is my (word) and I can challenge you to prove me wrong.

Karan Thapar: Let me move to another example. You said of Nitish Kumar, "Nitish Kumar has failed as Chief Minister. The governments under Lalu Yadav and Rabri Devi were far better than the present one."

Uma Bharti: I did not say it.

Karan Thapar: You did.

Uma Bharti: No.

Karan Thapar: Indeed.

Uma Bharti: No, I will not. I will not admit this.

Karan Thapar: You…

Uma Bharti: No, I am not even withdrawing, because I didn’t deliver it.

Karan Thapar: On 4th of November, you were probably quoted by six newspapers and by three news agencies.

Uma Bharti: Anybody can quote, but I did not say it.

Karan Thapar: How convenient! Every time I find out something embarrassing, you deny it.

Uma Bharti: No, not convenience. I accept that I said they are widowed aunt…

Karan Thapar: Can I put something to you? Today, when I am pointing out the silly things that you said, and I am using the word 'silly' deliberately, today when I am pointing out the vain, glorious and far-fetched boast that you made, you suddenly don’t want to acknowledge them. Do you suddenly feel embarrassed, when this is pointed out?

Uma Bharti: No. Actually the truth is, like Karan Thapar, if somebody comes and tells me that you have stolen somebody’s watch, I will see the FIR first. Because a person like Karan Thapar will not steal somebody's watch. So, the same thing, anybody can say anything, we have to verify at least some thing. And just by quoting…

Karan Thapar: Uma Bharti, these are the types of comments, that a lady, who has ceased to be relevant, makes.

Uma Bharti: I didn’t compare Nitish Kumar government… and I did not read it also. That is I am saying. Because I read all the newspapers. So, which newspapers you are quoting - I am surprised and shocked?

Karan Thapar: Let me put it like this. You are widely known to be a volatile lady. People say you go to extremes.

Uma Bharti: That statement is anti-woman. This is a caste, class and gender bias, which is coming out of your mouth.

Karan Thapar: I don’t think this is either class, caste or gender bias, it is factual.

Uma Bharti: Yes, Karan Thapar, people like you are suffering from that complex and you are using this word just because you are caste, class and gender-biased.

Karan Thapar: No, I am going to repeat my words if the audience can hear it. You are widely thought to be a volatile woman.

Uma Bharti: Because you people created my image like that when I entered politics. And when I entered Parliament, people like you and people who don’t want to work on the streets, they want to do everything in air-conditioned (rooms), they are so zealous of me and they could not find anything against me. So they started saying these things.

Karan Thapar: Can I finish the question?

Uma Bharti: I am a very nice person, very soft-hearted person, the only thing is that I speak my heart out and I know my drawbacks. I am not a God, I am a human being. My drawbacks are that I am very emotional, I speak very fast, I don’t pause. That is it, otherwise ok.

Karan Thapar: Should a person with those drawbacks be in politics?

Uma Bharti: Now see, I have come so far in politics, it’s very difficult to revert myself. So, I am trying to improve myself to be here.

Karan Thapar: People say because of your drawbacks, you are not cut out to be a leader. Are they wrong?

Uma Bharti: I don’t want to be a leader at all. I just want to be a good citizen of the country.

Karan Thapar: People say that you were a disastrous chief minister of Madhya Pradesh, which is why the BJP didn’t give you a second stance. Which is why you broke with them.

Uma Bharti: I just don’t care about these remarks. Because when my government was there, I won 25 seats out of 29 seats in Lok Sabha.

Karan Thapar: You are great at winning Lok Sabha seats, you are a brilliant speaker, you are an extremely entertaining person. But the problem is, are you a leader? Are you a ruler?

Uma Bharti: No, I will not support these things about myself. I cannot do the politics of self-appreciation. I will not say I am a great leader. I will speak factually.

Karan Thapar: I want you do the politics of self-criticism. Do you think that in November 2004, when you stormed out of the BJP general secretaries' Meeting, you behaved immaturely, worse, you damaged your own standing and credibility?

Uma Bharti: No, I think the immature behaviour was on the part of Advani and other people, who were sitting there. Because, Advani should have taken care of this, that he was condemning me for speaking against a colleague in media but he was doing the same thing (too). He was speaking against me in the media (as well). So he was not practising what he was preaching.

Karan Thapar: But, should you not have corrected Mr Advani in a way you didn’t damage yourself? You ended up damaging yourself. People said, look at her, she has walked out, she is immature.

Uma Bharti: Karan, do you believe in God?

Karan Thapar: Is that relevant?

Uma Bharti: No, let there be a question from angel. All the questions should not come from the devil.

Karan Thapar: But, is it relevant? Come back to my question, do you think…

Uma Bharti: Tell me, do you believe in God?

Karan Thapar: Actually I do.

Uma Bharti: Can you accept the fact that it was God's design that I have to be out from the party? Because the ideology is badly damaged and bruised…

Karan Thapar: Because God motivated you to behave 'madly'?

Uma Bharti: No, because the ideology of Hindutva and the ideology of pure politics were badly used, abused and misused by the BJP. Somebody had to protect it. So, God designed this. I believe in this. It’s a divine intervention.

Karan Thapar: Is God's hand on your shoulder even now?

Uma Bharti: Yes, always.

Karan Thapar: Do you think the God is guiding you?

Uma Bharti: Yes, always, I believe.

Karan Thapar: Do you think the God is leading you, as you claim, to victory in 2015?

Uma Bharti: You know what I believe? When I do a wrong thing, I believe I didn’t listen to God.

Karan Thapar: Do you think God wants you to rule India in 2015? Could you say you will be in a position to do so?

Uma Bharti: Not me, not me.

Karan Thapar: Your party?

Uma Bharti: Yes, my party.

Karan Thapar: God is doing that?

Uma Bharti: Yes, because he has given me the courage and strength.

Karan Thapar: Are you fooling yourself or are you fooling the people of India?

Uma Bharti: You should be there in 2015 to know who was the fool - me or you.

Karan Thapar: You really mean that, Uma Bharti? By coming back full circle, you really mean in 2015, your party will be ruling India?

Uma Bharti: Yes, I mean it.

Karan Thapar: You will be in position to either be a prime minister or to create a prime minister?

Uma Bharti: No, I don’t second your statement. All I am saying is that my party will be in the ruling in 2015, and somebody from Janshakti will be the prime minister. Uma Bharti may be a peon there, but somebody from Janshakti will be the prime minister.

Karan Thapar: The stories they tell about Shake Chili, maybe I should shake hands with Uma Bharti.

Uma Bharti: No, I am not Shake Chili. As a Shake Chili, I will not shake my hands with you. I shall shake my hands with you as Uma Bharti.

Karan Thapar: A pleasure talking to you, Ms Uma Bharti.

Uma Bharti: Thank you.