BJP has to follow the NDA: Arun Jaitley

Karan Thapar in conversation with the chief election strategist of the Bharatiya Janata Party and also one of its most important general secretaries, Arun Jaitley.

Karan Thapar: Mr Jaitley, in the last ten or fourteen days, the press has been full of stories of BJP candidates who are making hate speeches or of Jaswant Singh, who has been giving money to people in his son's constituency but says he has done nothing wrong.

Or people like Neera Yadav who have been accused of corruption but have been made members of your party, or even Manoj Pradhan, who is reported to have seven murder cases against him and has been made a member of your party in Orissa. People ask if this is a deliberate strategy on the part of the BJP or is it desperate?

Arun Jaitley: I think it is the other way round. You see, the media has a right and I am conceding that right to you and to the rest of the media to judge us by the standards we profess. You have candidates, let us say some of the biggest mafias in UP and Bihar, either contesting themselves for a BSP, SP, Lok Dal or a LJP ticket.

Those who cannot contest are putting up their wives (in elections). There are people who have been convicted. The Samajwadi Party tried to put up someone who had been convicted. The normal habit is that the media will not judge those parties by any kind of ethical standards because they know that they do not display those kinds of standards.

Karan Thapar: You have high standards, therefore you get judged by those high standards.

Arun Jaitley: That is because we have been professing high standards. I think it is our duty to maintain those high standards. And even if we are found to err marginally, people are entitled to tell us: are you not living up to the standards you profess?

Karan Thapar: Alright.

Arun Jaitley: For example, I looked after the BJP in two elections in Bihar which at that time had a notorious reputation and Nitish Kumar has now cleaned up that reputation. We made sure that out of the 104 Assembly seats that we contest; we do not give our seats to people with a criminal image.

Karan Thapar: Perfect. You say you have high standards so the media has a right to criticise you when you do not live up to that. Let me ask you this, it is then fitting that someone like Neera Yadav who has been removed by the Supreme Court from her post as Chief Secretary of UP, who's considered by her own peers as the second most corrupt IAS officer in the state, should be made a member of the BJP?

Arun Jaitley: You see, I am given to understand that her husband who is a former legislator and a former minister in the BJP government in UP, rejoined the BJP and she accompanied him to the function. Most of us are unaware that she is a member; she probably is not a member. That is what we have been told.

Karan Thapar: She was inducted by your party.

Arun Jaitley: The function was essentially a part of the campaign where her husband who came back and he does not have these cases against him. She has accompanied him; we have not given her a ticket, and we have not made her an activist or an office bearer.

We have not given her a responsibility and she accompanied him, therefore this confusion was created. But I do not want to go into this issue of personalities--X or Y.

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The fact that the people in the BJP are concerned about this; the fact that you are asking me about it are proof enough that even in a case where people are not assigned any responsibility, there is still a concern that people who join my party should be people who can at least inspire confidence.

Karan Thapar: If the BJP is concerned even about the belief that Neera Yadav has joined the party, leave alone the fact that your own party president has inducted her, then to what extent is the BJP concerned by the fact that someone like Manoj Pradhan, who according to the ‘Indian Express’ has seven murder cases against him is your candidate for Udaigiri?

Arun Jaitley: I too have read about this case. I do not know the details of the case but let me tell you one after Swamiji's murder in Orissa, there have been these stray districts where almost thousands of people belonging to the BJP have been charge-sheeted and have been prosecuted with FIRs registered against them.

I am not aware if some of these cases are in relation to some hard crime they created or are these cases in relation to participation in a protest.

For example, I can understand Varun Gandhi and speech-making controversy. But the Mayawati government has put him in for attempt to murder, national security. Surely, in these two later cases, you won't ask me the same question in relation to these two later cases as you are putting in the case of Pradhan?

Karan Thapar: I will come to the Varun Gandhi case in a moment's time. Let me tell you why Pradhan is an important time for the BJP to answer. The BJP considers itself as a party morally superior to others.

You in fact call yourselves a party with a difference. Now, the DSP of Baliguda in Orissa has gone on record to say that Manoj Pradhan faces seven murder cases out of ten charges all-together. Now, this is something so well known in Orissa, BJP seems to overlook that to choose him.

Arun Jaitley: I am certainly going to look into this, and find out if these are in relation to some hardcore crimes he has been committing or are these in relation to participation in protests after Swamiji's assassination.

I have a lurking suspicion--I don’t have material to say that--that and so I am going to certainly find this out and get back to you in some future programme about this.

Karan Thapar: Let us come to Mr Jaswant Singh, a colleague of yours in the Rajya Sabha and in fact Leader of the Opposition in the Rajya Sabha. When he was seen on national television giving out 100-Rupee notes to the people of his son's constituency, not only did he say that he had done nothing wrong, he also said the law differs. The law is to be assumed to be an ass.

Arun Jaitley: I do not think you are being fair to Jaswant Singh.

Karan Thapar: I quoted him, exactly.

Arun Jaitley: Mr Jaswant Singh is one person who maintains utmost probity in public life. All that they have said is--I have read his son's statement--that this is a matter where there is a convention in Rajasthan that if someone asks you for assistance or there are folk dancers, you give money after the performance and they touch your feet. This is not considered ‘bribery’ in the sense of election law.

Karan Thapar: But after the declaration of elections and the model code of conduct in force, these are the interpretations.

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Arun Jaitley: So it is best to leave it to the Election Commission.

Karan Thapar: I asked you about Neera Yadav, Manoj Pradhan and about Jaswant Singh. These are all elements of the BJP, most importantly Varun Gandhi, who have been accused of making hate speeches. Suddenly, the party that believes that it is a party with a difference is becoming a party that has to make a hundred excuses. Your moral image just when it should be shining is blemished.

Arun Jaitley: I come back to what I said. Since we claim to be a party with a difference, you are entitled to pick up and start examining minute details. And then you say, well, this is one black spot on you.

None of you were very deeply concerned that you had eight ministers with a tainted record in Dr Manmohan Singh's cabinet, and he spent the last five years getting to subvert the CBI to make all those cases.

Karan Thapar: Because Congress does not claim to be superior, you do.

Arun Jaitley: I am glad you say that for the simple reason that if eight tainted ministers having CBI to subvert to remove those cases, the media is not concerned. But if there is a controversy whether someone was giving (money) to a folk dancer or bribing voters, this by itself would be a great calamity.

I think the media also has to be a little fair to us. By and large, the BJP has maintained standards of probity in its governments which are much better than any other political parties.

Karan Thapar: You say ‘by and large’ and then you want fairness. But let me remind you that the BJP manifesto, which was launched in Delhi on Friday, has on its cover where the party's priorities are listed, something even Mr Advani drew attention to.

It is the fact that right at the top, the most important point is good governance. How can you deliver good governance when your party members were involved in morally-compromising situations? When you cannot be sure of the honesty of your own people, where does the good governance come in?

Arun Jaitley: I am very glad you raised this question. It’s a point of view that I have always personally expressed inside and out of the party. We have a freedom to do so. We must bring in those people who are in politics, who exercise that kind of power such that it can only exercised by men of great integrity and ethics and not by people who are given in to these kinds of moral aberrations.

Karan Thapar: Absolutely! And in fact it is widely know that you have fought with people in your own party over an issue of appropriateness and suitability of people who are appointed. Aren't you today embarrassed by what your party is doing?

Arun Jaitley: Well, I would be happier if these incidents had not taken place. But I am still satisfied for two reasons. One, because we are a democratic party where you have the freedom to raise these issues and still be working for the campaign and the party, two because campaigns of this kind will perhaps encourage those who want to cleanse up the entire political system.

Karan Thapar: I want to now bring up Varun Gandhi. He is widely accused in the public of making violent and hateful comments about the Muslim community and yet the 'Hindustan Times', the 'Mail Today' and perhaps other papers have quoted L K Advani of having equated Varun Gandhi with Atal Behari Vajpayee and Jai Prakash Narayan. How do you explain that?

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Arun Jaitley: Well, I think that in analysing media, perhaps you are cleverer than me. This is in fact one of the silliest pieces of journalism that I have ever seen. Mr Advani makes a statement that you do not detain candidates under National Security Act during elections.

During the Emergency, he says, JP and Vajpayee were detained. Some two newspapers come up and say, well, is Varun Gandhi, Jai Prakash Narayan? If this is the understanding of the front pages of these two esteemed papers, I will probably have to reassess their editorial policies.

Karan Thapar: In which case, clarify something. Are you saying today that there is no sense in which Varun Gandhi is the equal of Atal Behari Vajpayee or Jai Prakash Narayan?

Arun Jaitley: They were legends in politics, he is a beginner in politics. I think that all that Mr Advani said was, during a campaign you do not detain candidates, and it is a bad precedent. It happened during the Emergency and it let it not happen now. I think that the comparison begins and ends with that.

Karan Thapar: I want to talk to you about the BJP manifesto which was released in Delhi on Friday. It is the first manifesto the party has launched in 11 years--in 2004 you came up with a vision statement, which at the time Pramod Mahajan repeatedly said would last 20 years. So which takes precedence, the manifesto or the vision statement?

Arun Jaitley: I think times change. There is no fundamental difference in the structure and the basic point of the two, but the requirement of the day brings about certain additional. And those additionalties have been brought into the manifesto.

Karan Thapar: There is considerable difference. On Article 370 your manifesto says the BJP is committed to its abrogation: Article 370 was not mentioned even in the vision statement.

Arun Jaitley: We have been conventionally been releasing BJP manifestos. In 2004 we called it a vision statement, and we have also been releasing what are called agendas of governance. Normally in the agenda for governance we mention only points of agreement, like a common minimum programme which the NDA allies all agree to

Karan Thapar: But this was not a NDA document; it was a BJP vision statement.

Arun Jaitley: In a BJP manifesto or our vision statements our basic core issues of beliefs are generally mentioned even though unless we get a majority they may not be implementable because we go by the NDA.

Karan Thapar: Forgive me, I have to interrupt you. You say your basic core beliefs are generally mentioned (but) Article 370 which is a fundamental belief was ignored in the vision statement.

Arun Jaitley: I don’t think whether you mention it or not makes any difference, because the BJP has never given up its belief on Article 370. I don’t BJP has ever given up its beliefs and I categorically clarifying it to you today.

Karan Thapar: Let us come to your second important belief: the Uniform Civil Code. In your vision statement you said categorically that this cannot come into being unless one has a social and political consensus in its favour.

Arun Jaitley: I even today believe it.

Karan Thapar: You may believe it but that is not what your manifesto says today.

Arun Jaitley: Let us not hair split.

Karan Thapar: I am not hair-splitting.

Arun Jaitley: Assuming that the BJP were to get majority on its own, even then before bringing a Uniform Civil Code it is not beliefs one religion which are going to be enforced--we will require larger consensus.

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Karan Thapar: Your manifesto says the BJP will set up a commission to draft a Uniform Civil Code. You didn’t mention that in the vision statement—in the vision statement you only talked about the need to create social and political consensus. Now you have ditched the consensus. You have gone on to establishing a commission—suddenly you have hardened your belief.

Arun Jaitley: Any government of the day which brings changes in personal laws certainly consults communities. When I was the Law Minister I brought basic changes to Indian Divorce Act, which is a law applicable to the Christians.

It was only after a consensus of the Church that we were able to do that. There is no question of forcing this on the people. You discuss with people; you bring out the best points of the law that you require and then you bring this about.

Karan Thapar: Let me put it like this. The manifesto that was launched in Delhi on Friday is clearly the manifesto of an ideologically committed party but what Mr Advani said on March 25, 2004 is very different. He said a country as vast and pluralistic as India cannot be ruled by an ideological party. Suddenly the manifesto launched on Friday contradicts what Mr Advani said five years ago.

Arun Jaitley: I don’t think so. I think when you say ideological parties Mr Advani’s statement consistently has been you take up your ideological positions but when it comes to ruling the country a lot of it depends on ideas and idealism. This is a statement which he has been making consistently for the last 10 years in that context. Please don’t confuse that with any form of dilution of the BJP’s character.

Karan Thapar: You know what you are saying. Ideology is okay at the manifesto level but when it comes to ruling it is ditched for what you call ideas and idealism

Arun Jaitley: No, I am not saying that. Even in regard to our ideology when you are in governance and have responsibility of governance, therefore you will try and bring a larger consensus before you can implement some of those points.

Karan Thapar:The truth here, that the three cardinal principle of article 370, the uniform civil court and the Ram temple were party of the BJP's ideology right up to 1998 but then they were jettisoned and put in the backburner so that you could form the NDA. It is going to happen again. Why bother with the manifesto and committing yourself when you can't implement it?

Arun Jaitley: The truth, if I put it differently, it is not that we jettisoned our belief, the truth is that we don't get an absolute majority as a BJP, we get it as an NDA and therefore governance is as per the strength and the manifesto or the agenda of the NDA.

Karan Thapar:But you know you are not going to get an absolute majority as the BJP, you know you are dependent on the NDA.

Arun Jaitley: Well, the CMP knows that it doesn't get an absolute majority so it doesn't give up its Leftist economic principles. The Akali Dal knows that it doesn't get a majority, it doesn't still give up its Anandpur Sahib resolution.

Political parties in the elections don't give up their ideology. When they form a government, their agenda for governance is what is implementable keeping in mind the structure of the government.

Karan Thapar:Except for the fact that you are a party with a difference, you are an honest party or a transparent party one hopes and what you are doing by this manifesto is to delude the faithful. You are convincing them of the possibility knowing that it is impossible

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Arun Jaitley: An ideology represents the ideological personality and the direction of that party. If that party doesn't get a majority on its own and it forms a coalition government, it is a hard reality of politics, you can't implement what others don't accept and you will implement what others agree to.

Karan Thapar:Let me point out what Nitish Kumar said exactly a week ago on the March 26. He said: "We want the Ayodha issue to be solved either through talks or court decision."

Your manifesto holds up on the possibility of legislation, he is against it. Then he continues, "There should not be anything like abrogating Article 370 or common civil court." Now as far as he is concerned, your manifesto is a no, no, no.

Arun Jaitley: Let me answer you clearly on all the three points. If you read our manifesto this time on Ayodhya, it is not different from what Nitish Kumar has said. It is almost identical to what we had said in the NDA agenda.

Karan Thapar:Forgive me, I have to interrupt you because your manifesto on Ayodhya says the BJP will explore all the possibilities including negotiations and judicial proceedings. Where all possibilities include the possibility of legislation. He is excluding it.

Arun Jaitley: I think that is what you are trying to bring in to create a problem between me and Nitish Kumar.

Karan Thapar:What does all possibilities mean?

Arun Jaitley: All possibilities specifies these two possibilities.

Karan Thapar:No, it says including, not limited to.

Arun Jaitley: We haven't mentioned any third possibility here. Our manifesto on Ayodhya says exactly what the NDA agenda in 2004 said. Uniform civil court, we have said exactly what the constitution said we must try to do under Article 44.

On Article 370, we said exactly what the constitution has been saying since 1950 that it is a transient and temporary provision, one day it has to go. Therefore, what we say on these two issues, the latter two, is probably on the right side of the constitution. The rest of the politics, may think differently.

Karan Thapar:In which case, why put it in the backburner to form a government. It is even more bizarre that if you position is constitutionally correct and morally correct , it is even more bizarre that you put on the backburner?

Arun Jaitley:There is a logical, hard reality answer to this. I don't have a two-third majority to amend the constitution.

Karan Thapar:But you are casting principles to the winds to try and form a government, power before principles?

Arun Jaitley: I am aware of this hardcore reality, I can't do it until I have a two-third majority in parliament. If I go on an alliance with others which is a reality, I am going, I have to agree on a common agenda.

Karan Thapar:Is power more important that principles, powere is more important that truth and ideology?

Arun Jaitley: I think the reality is, your strength must dictate the reality and the strength is when you have a majority, you can probably enforce you ideas through government. If you don't have a majority, you agree on the common minimum programme. A courtly must have governance and that is the reality.

Karan Thapar:Governance at any cost. Arun Jaitley, a pleasure talking to you.