Click to play videoTwo days before he retires from office, outgoing Chief Election Commissioner N Gopalaswami has finally broken his silence on the Varun Gandhi hate speech.
Gopalaswami, who retires on Monday, says that all three election commissioners were shocked after watching the CD that contained Varun’s speech.
In an exclusive interview with CNN-IBN’s National Affairs Editor Diptosh Majumdar, Gopalswami also spoke about issues like the controversy regarding removal of election commissioner Navin Chawla and conducting free, fair and safe elections.
CNN-IBN: The Naxalite violence that we experienced in the first phase (of elections) taking a huge death toll - is this the first sign of imperfection creeping (into the election commission’s system)?
Gopalaswami: I don’t think so. I think there has been a lot of uninformed criticism of the decision to have the entire Naxalite belt going to polls. It was the same in 2004, same in 2009.
CNN-IBN: The Red Corridor went to the poll at the same time ….
Gopalaswami: Yes, last time also. In fact, last time there were more constituencies; there were 141 constituencies which included parts of Maharashtra which were not Naxal-hit, entire Gujarat which was not Naxal-affected, so those we cut down. We added Kerala this time where no force was given…they managed it themselves. So all the force was actually given to the Naxal areas and the reason why we took that entire area was: No. 1, you can put in the force at least three to four weeks in advance to do area domination to ensure that your forces get familiarised, they sit there; see to it that there is as much control as is possible. Second, you allow phased coverage of the area, you allow people also to move from phase to phase.
CNN-IBN: But it couldn’t have been as strong as what it was in 2008 when you conducted the Assembly elections…
Gopalaswami: Comparison with 2008 election is totally wrong. It was a standalone election for a particular state. If we are going to compare Uttar Pradesh Assembly election 2007 with Parliament election in Uttar Pradesh, Bihar standalone election with Bihar Parliament election, I don’t think the comparison can ever be right…
CNN-IBN: The two elections can never be the same.
Gopalaswami: So you really have to compare with 2004 Parliamentary election - Parliament election to Parliament election. That’s a correct comparison. From that point of view, you’ll see that we actually went in for less number of constituencies this time, 124 as against 141 - so that you can use more force in this area whatever was available we used. But the fact remains that over a period of time, their influence has increased. Therefore may be this is one of the reasons why they could have done more than what might have been expected in area but it is not that the Commission had not anticipated trouble in the first place. This was the most difficult phase as far as we are concerned. And therefore we had planned accordingly.
CNN-IBN: But in your preparations you discussed the whole strategy with the Home Ministry and you were given an evaluation, was there any hint in the evaluation of a possibility of so much violence?
Gopalaswami: (Of) Violence possibility in this area, nobody needs to tell you. It’s been there all along, we have seen it in 2008 elections, we have seen it before…it’s been a continuing problem. You tell me you saw this great spectacle of 300 people in the Nalco area with 20 people trying to guard it..
CNN-IBN: So basically what you are saying is that Naxalite presence has increased in the Chhattisgarh, Jharkhand and Orissa compared to what it was in the previous election.
Gopalaswami: That is possible. 2004 to now, over a period of time, they have become better organized, may be. You can have 50 policemen and you can have one casualty, you can have 50 policemen and you can have ten casualties depending on what kind of strategy or weapons are used. So, I don’t think this comparison is right. If we had tried to do anything different from what we have done, there could have been a disaster. Because after that, all the other phases would have been with less and less police force.
CNN-IBN: So the most difficult phase of the elections is over now.
Gopalaswami: Yes, over now.
CNN-IBN: So, second to fifth, we don’t expect this kind of violence?
Gopalaswami: Well very small areas – Naxal-affected areas in West Bengal and Orissa. To that extent, there can be some possibilities, but definitely this kind of area where they have lot of potential there is no longer there….
CNN-IBN: Moving on to another hot topic of discussion, did the Varun Gandhi speech shock you?
Gopalaswami: Well yes, it did. Otherwise how would the Commission come to a conclusion to do that, send out that advisory?
CNN-IBN: It shocked all three of you
Gopalaswami: Oh yes, oh yes, absolutely.
CNN-IBN: All three of you were unanimous in that advisory you sent out?
Gopalaswami: Absolutely, absolutely.
CNN-IBN: But the Opposition is criticising and is not even obeying that advisory. Doesn’t that humiliate the Election Commission?
Gopalaswami: Well, it doesn’t, it doesn’t because the point is you advise, you give an advice but it not absolutely mandatory that the advice should be taken. But you see the moral pressure it created. You seen the whole model code of conduct has to be renamed moral code of conduct. It’s actually moral pressure. Well we are trying to tell you it’s your document. You people have created it. This particular action of yours is not keeping with the provisions of that code. We are now trying to tell you please refine yourself, please correct yourself.
CNN-IBN: This criticism that is coming in of Election Commission’s overreach, Election Commission’s activism in the way you talk of judicial activism…you don’t agree with those statement.
Gopalaswamy: You see there’s always a very funny response to these things. If you don’t say you’ll say you have not said anything at all, you are saying the same thing, if you say then you’ll say you are saying something new - either way you’re going to find fault with us. For saying it you’ll find fault with us, you have not said anything at all you’ll say that you say the same thing to every body. So what’s the big deal? So I think in this particular case, we genuinely felt that we should go beyond than what we normally do.
CNN-IBN: But how do you distinguish between the scales of these remarks, the kind of fine distinctions that you have to make when such remarks are made by a number of politicians? For example the Opposition is blaming you for not taking on their opponents, Imran Kidwai, D Srinivas of Andhra Pradesh and Lalu Yadav who threatened to drive a road roller over Varun Gandhi.
Gopalaswami: Believe me, believe me if you sit down and see all these CDs you would not come to any other conclusion. That definitely this is grave. You can’t just compare this with others and you can’t just treat everybody equally on this when you know and you seen and you feel that this is far more serious.
CNN-IBN: So Varun Gandhi’s speech goes beyond permissible limits completely…
Gopalaswami: Absolutely. That’s why we said what we said,
CNN-IBN: So that standards are set and in future nobody does it, emulate that example.
Gopalaswami: Hopefully, yes.
CNN-IBN: The other issue which is coming to the fore is the use of money power. We are seeing people like Mulayam Singh, Jaswant Singh, very senior politicians who should be setting examples they are distributing money in public.
Gopalaswami: Again, you have to make a fine distinction. In the case of Mulayam Singh it was in a Holi Milan in his own village organized by some body who organizes it regularly. And something happened there. Distinguish it against another case where there is is a campaign meeting and somebody does it there. That’s totally different. You can’t treat them on an equal footing. So that is why we waited and decided in this particular case an advisory is sent.
CNN-IBN: But doesn’t it send out bad examples to other politicians. Well, they are distributing money to gain votes.
Gopalaswami: I will tell you something. I don’t think, beyond even this, what really happens on what they call the katal ki raat is 48 hours before the polls, the nights, the reports of the distribution, it happened in Bellary in Karnataka and our observers tackled it very beautifully, very effectively. In fact they could even smell the money in an ambulance. So this ambulance was stopped. And this observer who was very observant, he found that suddenly many ambulances were plying, so he realised that there was something wrong there. So he stopped one ambulance and found that there was no patient there, just wads of money. So well, that is far more serious than few politicians here and there giving something by way of baksheesh. This is also bad. It sets a bad example. But I’ll tell you outside of this, there is an area where a lot of money is flowing. We saw it in Thirumangalam in Tamil Nadu, the kind of luring of voters through what they call biryani melas or meetings - all kinds of tricks are used. It’s far more worrisome.
CNN-IBN: So money part is proving to be a bane which you are not being able to control.
Gopalaswami: Well I don’t think we really were successful. And you can’t, you know. I am not saying this is an excuse but in practical terms. You see, when the EC comes into the picture, the day after the nominations complete. From there 15 days, when all this tamasha takes place. We have one observer, two observers, three, four, five. But there is a limit to how many observers will be there in a constituency. We can’t really fill every nook and corner of the constituency with observers. No. Of course you people are also observers and you give us the feedback. So with all this, we try and do as good a job as possible. But if everybody decides to break the law in a big way, I don’t think a few policemen can really provide the answers.
CNN-IBN: So the problem is over the past 15 years, Election Commission has been praised for empowering people who are disempowered, who can’t vote, who previously never voted, who are coming out to vote in huge numbers. Poll percentage has gone up over the years but the fact remains that there is also the fact that now a lot of people cannot contest because they don’t have the money. Do you agree with that view?
Gopalaswami: Yes. Yes, in a way.
CNN-IBN: That probably we have brought in democracy through the vote giving exercise but to go and contest there and be a vote winner is very difficult even now.
Gopalaswami: This is where the political parties’ role comes in. You see if the political parties would like to not necessarily give to persons who are capable of spending.
CNN-IBN: So frankly, in your assessment, is this election going to be the costliest exercise even taking into account the parallel economy which will happen?
Gopalaswami: Well, well… Difficult to say. But one thing I can tell you now - it is being far more talked about, it is being far more filmed about and being far more mentioned about. It is possible that earlier also something of this kind might have taken place but the kind of media attention which these things are now getting. The proliferation of the media because of which there is a lot more news coming, information coming… and we also track these candidates and others with our cameras. Many people feel free to write so all this has now created this thing as though this is the only election where money power is going. Yes, definitely much more than before but it is not as though it was totally absent.
CNN-IBN: And as far as abuses go, as far as communally divisive speeches go, is this election according to you one of the worst track record?
Gopalaswami: Looks like it. I mean, so far. But I think it is kind of tapering off. There’s not much that happened after (some incidents).
CNN-IBN: Is it the first time? Have these incidents – these kind of speeches, this kind of abuses - increased in number? Or is it being recorded more?
Gopalaswami: I think because it is being recorded there is some amount of pressure on the candidates. I think it is coming down barring a few speeches. There are not many speeches.
CNN-IBN: There are a lot of personal attacks.
Goapalaswami: Personal attacks. One is the communal side. But personal attack, yes. There has been much more of it. But I don’t think anybody keeps statistics of what happened in the 2004 elections for us to be able to compare and say there was 150 times last time and this time it has been 170 and therefore it is more than the previous. I think this has happened before also.
CNN-IBN: Would you suggest that political parties meet with the Election Commission to discuss what is a communally divisive dangerous speech and also the role of money power? Because money power has been talked about in the past and nothing much has happened at all. There are committees which have been set up, suggestions which have gone forward Mr Advani has his views, this government has its views. So how do you solve the problem?
Gopalaswami: I think on the second issue, the Commission is deliberating. I am quite sure that the next CEC will be taking up the issue with the political parties. I am quite sure of it.
CNN-IBN: Sir, you are leaving behind an Election Commission which has done a fantastic job, but of late, some controversies have crept in. There has been talk of division. Do you believe divisions are good because it promotes the health of the Election Commission as long as they are kept within the premises?
Gopalaswami: Well, it’s something like this. If there are three people, to expect three opinions may not be incorrect at all. That’s quite normal. Then a consensus emerges and things are resolved. There could be occasions when it doesn’t get resolved that way. That’s also possible. But I don’t think as a body, the commission has let down anybody and commission has been found to be non-neutral.
CNN-IBN: Sir, be brutally honest on this. You have headed the Election Commission and you have been an Election Commissioner under another Chief Election Commissioner. Would you say that the friction that happened towards the end of your tenure is greater than what you experienced as an Election Commissioner?
Gopalaswami: It’s bound to happen. It can happen once in a while. It can happen.
CNN-IBN: Would you say once in a while? You yourself gave a number of instances of disagreement with a particular Election Commissioner.
Gopalaswami: I take you back to Seshan’s time. There were quite a few incidents of this kind. But I don’t think this kind of comparisons really take you anywhere.
CNN-IBN: Sir, you are bowing out of office, you are retiring, people will ask that since the Election Commission plays the role of an arbiter, plays the role of the judge, a referee, an umpire whatever you call it, the fact remains the Election Commission must appear to be just. Are you very satisfied that you are leaving behind an Election Commission which is not only just but appears to be just?
Gopalaswami: See as far as the Commission is concerned, I have no doubt at all.
CNN-IBN: That it will be able to conduct elections justly and fairly.
Gopalaswami: Absolutely. It has had an image. It will continue to have an image as a neutral umpire and there’s absolutely no derogation of that. Men may come and men may go but as they said but I go on forever,
CNN-IBN: What about appearance, just appearance?
Gopalaswami: You people are better judges of what appearances are, you’ll judge it. And I am quite sure, you’ll not be disappointed.
CNN-IBN: Did you experience in any way any discomfiture with the Opposition when you took over.
Gopalaswami: No, not at all.
CNN-IBN: In fact, the question of your proximity with any political party did not come at all before you sent the recommendation to the President on the removal of a particular Election Commissioner . Did that hurt you sir?
Gopalaswami: You see, the point is that perceptions could be there. You don’t have the control over perception that others have about you. They are after all perceptions.
And it’s for other people to judge.
CNN-IBN: Do you believe that a removal of an Election Commissioner other than the CEC can be done at the behest of the CEC? Does the Constitution allow that?
Gopalaswami: Well, according to my understanding, yes.
CNN-IBN: According to your understanding, yes. But there are other jurists who think otherwise.
Gopalaswami: Yes there are contrary opinions. Therefore I think the best way to describe it as one of the jurists, eminent jurist Mr Fali Nariman, said somewhere it is a grey area. Yes, suppose it is.
CNN-IBN: Partly a grey area. But it was not grey enough so that you send out.
Gopalaswami: I didn’t feel it was. But others felt... one doesn’t have the power. So. Then the opinion is there is something on this side, something on that side so this is grey area. That’s what Fali Nariman described it to be. I suppose he’s right.
CNN-IBN: Wouldn’t it have helped the Election Commission’s image which was sullied completely and it was holding great elections from Uttar Pradesh to Gujara. The fact remains that wouldn’t it have been great if the entire controversy was kept within the bounds of the Election Commission and not leaked out? Were you angry with the fact that it was leaked out deliberately?
Gopalaswami: Well I don’t want to… you see these are all value judgements. Whether leaked out or not , I don’t think one should get into these issues. It’s a matter that’s well past. It’s finally decided. And for me, that is period.
CNN-IBN: There are two differences of opinion… there are several that are being talked about but there are two that come to my mind and which are there in the popular consciousness is the fact that there was a point of time when a particular political party didn’t want to hold elections in Karnataka, it didn’t suit them at that point of time. Is it true that at that point of time you stepped in?
Gopalaswami: Nothing of this kind. You see both…I suppose your, your other query is regarding Kashmir. In both the issues the Commission took the right decision.
CNN-IBN: In both Kashmir and Karnataka Commission took the right decision. But there were…
Gopalaswami: Certain differences of opinion. Yes.
CNN-IBN: There were differences of opinion.
Gopalaswami: Yes.
CNN-IBN: But differences of opinion as you are saying will suit the health of the Commission.
Gopalaswami: Yes. Unless that comes out, how do you appreciate another point of view?
CNN-IBN: What message are you leaving behind for you successor?
Gopalaswami: Well. The Commission is great. And I am quite sure you’ll do well as anybody who has preceded you.
CNN-IBN: Was there any moment during this entire friction when it was happening in the Election Commission that work had stopped, work had been affected?
Gopalaswami: Not at all. Not at all. Our professional relations were absolutely on even keel.
CNN-IBN: Thank you for talking to CNN-IBN.
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