BJP betrayed trust: Orissa CM Naveen Patnaik

Orissa is considered a key state in these elections, not just because the Chief Minister is contesting for the third consecutive term but also because of the impact it could have on the national government in Delhi. Karan Thapar speaks to the man who is central to both those elections, the Chief Minister of Orissa, Naveen Patnaik.

Karan Thapar: Chief Minister, the polls are suggesting that you might be in a position to form a government on your own in Orissa after the elections. Half way through the voting with just one more round left, are you confident?

Naveen Patnaik: As a matter of fact, I am confident. I think with the blessings of the people of my state the Biju Janata Dal (BJD) is certainly coming through with a single majority. The party is having its own majority both to form a state government and to send a number of MPs to the Lok Sabha.

Karan Thapar: But on the question of the Lok Sabha, the problem is that the same polls are suggesting that you are going to end up with fewer seats than you had in 2004. Now can you accept that?

Naveen Patnaik: No, I don't think so. It is possible because at that time we were fighting only 12 seats and out of them we got 11 and this time we are fighting 18 seats, I expect to do much-much better this time.

Karan Thapar: The problem is that the risk you took when you broke your 11-year-old alliance with the Bharatiya Janata Party is that you could end up splitting the anti-Congress votes. Now even if the Congress may not win, it is going to be in a much stronger position than it has been for the last five to 10 years. Do you regret that?

Naveen Patnaik: Well, no. I don't regret that at all because the BJP in Orissa has been discredited over almost a decade for really being incompetent and then of course their association with the terrible happenings in Kandhamal a few months ago.

Karan Thapar: So, given that the BJP has been discredited you are happy to see a stronger Congress?

Naveen Patnaik: I am not happy to see a stronger Congress because our political parivar (family) has always been anti-Congress ever since my father left Indira Gandhi in the late 1960s.

Karan Thapar: Absolutely, which is why I asked the question. Your breaking up with the BJP has given them (Congress) an opportunity which they never ever had as they have now.

Naveen Patnaik: It was important to break up with the BJP because I don't consider them healthy any longer for my state after Kandhamal - which I think is very apparent to everyone. Before Kandhamal, we were lucky in the early years of the state government not to have a serious communal problem at all. But Kandhamal was very tragic and serious.

Karan Thapar: So, you are saying that after Kandhamal you couldn't have continued with the BJP in any circumstances?

Naveen Patnaik: It had become very, very difficult.

Karan Thapar: You hold the BJP and their associated allies responsible for what happened in Kandhamal?

Naveen Patnaik: When you interviewed me a few months ago about Kandhamal, I made it very clear that our administration had arrested a number of persons who belong to their sister organisations for the violence in Kandhamal.

Karan Thapar: I want very much to talk about your relationship with the BJP and why it ended in the way it did but first let us concentrate on the elections. If you don't get an outright majority in the Vidhan Sabha, then you might look at the BJP for the extra seats that you need?

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Naveen Patnaik: That will never happen; that we have already clarified.

Karan Thapar: In which case if you don't get a majority on your own will you form a minority government or prefer to sit in the Opposition?

Naveen Patnaik: Well, I don't doubt for a moment that my party will clear majority by itself.

Karan Thapar: That is your confidence but if you don't then?

Naveen Patnaik: As a matter of fact, I haven't thought about it at all.

Karan Thapar: So, you are ruling out the possibility of sitting in the Opposition?

Naveen Patnaik: In a democracy every party has to sit in the Opposition one time or the other.

Karan Thapar: So, even though you are denying it, you are mentally prepared for that possibility?

Naveen Patnaik: I don't think that eventuality is a possibility in this election at all.

Karan Thapar: That the election will tell us in just four weeks time. Let's come to the Centre. You have repeatedly said you will support a non-Congress and a non-BJP government, so does that mean that you are going to support the Third Front?

Naveen Patnaik: The BJD will not support a Congress-led government or a BJP-led government.

Karan Thapar: You have laid a lot of emphasis on the word 'led' so could you support a government in which the Congress and the BJP are a part but not in the leadership position?

Naveen Patnaik: Well, I see a situation which is very fluid at the moment as far as the Lok Sabha elections are concerned.

I perceive that the two national parties (the BJP and the Congress) shrinking even further in the numbers to what they have been in the recent past and there is a possibility of another force - call it a Third Front or a Fourth Front or any front - coming up.

And the interest of my party is to support a government which would fulfill the just demands of my state which have been neglected by the Central Government perpetually.

Karan Thapar: Let me explore that for a moment with you. Many analysts believe that the most likely outcome is what you just called the Fourth Front, where the present allies of the Congress, the BJP and may be the Left party or the members of the present Third Front get together with possibly the Congress party being a part of it or supporting it from the outside.

The critical question is that as long as it is not ruled by the Congress, which you just ruled out, can the BJD participate in such a national government?

Naveen Patnaik: Let us see how things turn out on May 16, we don't have to wait for long.

Karan Thapar: But you are not ruling it out, that is an interesting thing.

Naveen Patnaik: I am not really going to expand on that. I have said it very clearly and I will repeat it again that the BJD will not support any Congress-led or BJP-led government.

Karan Thapar: Let me approach it a bit differently. You have made it clear that there is no way you can support Manmohan Singh for another term as the Prime Minister of India but if it were to emerge that Sharad Pawar, with whom you have a seat-sharing arrangement in Orissa, could be a possible prime minister would the BJD support Sharad Pawar?

Naveen Patnaik: We can certainly look into that with a great level of possibility.

Karan Thapar: What does that mean?

Naveen Patnaik: It means what I have said. I assume or I think that there will be a government which will not be led by the Congress or the BJP.

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Karan Thapar: But if it is led by Sharad Pawar, would you support it?

Naveen Patnaik: Let us put names aside. I have said it earlier and I repeat that the BJD's interest is in supporting a government which will fulfill the just demand of my state. Orissa has been neglected for ages by the Central Government.

Karan Thapar: And given that Sharad Pawar has an alliance or a seat-sharing arrangement with you, would you support him?

Naveen Patnaik: That might be considered.

Karan Thapar: Suppose the Left parties were to agree to join this Fourth Front, in those circumstances could you support a Communist Party of India-Marxist (CPI-M) prime minister?

Naveen Patnaik: That too could be considered, because at present we have seat-adjustments with the CPI, CPI-M and Sharad Pawar's party, the Nationalist Congress Party (NCP).

Karan Thapar: If a CPI-M prime minister can be considered, which will be your preference: Prakash Karat or Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee?

Naveen Patnaik: I am quite open on that matter.

Karan Thapar: So, both would be acceptable?

Naveen Patnaik: Yes, indeed.

Karan Thapar: Many would say that Karat is a hardliner, you don't have a problem with that?

Naveen Patnaik: As I have said that those who would fulfill the demands of Orissa could certainly be supported, as long as they are not the Congress or the BJP.

Karan Thapar: Today, the Left and the BJD have a seat-adjustment but not just six months ago during Kandhamal the Left and the CPI-M in particular wanted action to be taken against your government under Article 355 of the Constitution.

Brinda Karat was publicly saying that you have done absolutely nothing for the helpless Christians who were butchered by the Vishwa Hindu Parishad and Bajrang Dal. Is that all forgotten now?

Naveen Patnaik: In fact the government has done a great deal. We had taken action, many were arrested.

Karan Thapar: I am not talking about the actions. I am asking if you have forgotten all that was said about you?

Naveen Patnaik: At that time, when it was a very worrying and a heated situation, on the spur of the moment some things might have been said.

Karan Thapar: So, they have been forgiven?

Naveen Patnaik: Well, as I have said - time moves, history changes. Let us see what the election results bring.

Karan Thapar: So yesterday's opponents have become today's friends.

Naveen Patnaik: I guess there is no point in letting one's imagination run wild. Let us see what the election results bring, which are not far away.

Karan Thapar: Let's talk about the end of your 11-year alliance with the Bharatiya Janata Party. So far you have told the world that this alliance ended because the two parties couldn't agree on certain seat-adjustments for the future. But beyond that, to what extent had you begun to feel suffocated by the BJP's anti-minority ideology?

Naveen Patnaik: Well, as you know, a few months ago when Kandhamal took place, it was very disturbing and very worrying. It was horrifying what happened and ever since then the unease began between my party and the Bharatiya Janata Party.

It had been there earlier too because they hadn't been the most honest of allies. In various elections they would try to undercut my party, but those are minor things in comparison to what happened in Kandhamal and its aftermath.

Karan Thapar: So Kandhamal in a sense was a breaking point for you.

Naveen Patnaik: Yes indeed, and their behaviour as allies within the Assembly and outside it was incorrect in many ways.

Karan Thapar: When Kandhamal happened, the urban-middle classes began to compare you with Narendra Modi. Some people even called you a second Narendra Modi. Did that upset, even hurt you?

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Naveen Patnaik: I would never personally consider myself anything like that. I think in a secular manner, I have a secular background, so I never consider that as a correct allegation.

Karan Thapar: Which means that the comparison with Narendra Modi must have been deeply hurtful.

Naveen Patnaik: I found it just unbelievable, that is all.

Karan Thapar: When I interviewed you just after what happened in Kandhamal, you said to me that every single bone in your body was secular. Would you say today that the break with BJP proves that to be the case?

Naveen Patnaik: What would you say Karan? You have known me all my life.

Karan Thapar: I would say that is the case.

Naveen Patnaik: Thank you.

Karan Thapar: Was it done with that in mind?

Naveen Patnaik: One always stands by one's beliefs in the end, don't you think? Or one should stand by one's beliefs.

Karan Thapar: Many would say that it took Naveen Patnaik nine years to stand up to his belief. Those who know you have always known that you were secular, that you were liberal and that you were modern.

They were astounded to know that you actually had an alliance with the BJP and that it lasted for so long. Why did it take you so long to stand up for your beliefs?

Naveen Patnaik: You'll have seen that for the last dozen years, the BJP has a number of secular allies. You can think of Mamata Banerjee, Hegde, Farooq Abdullah, George Fernandes or even Nitish Kumar - they have a number of secular allies.

And in Orissa, we were fortunate enough that during the first eight years of my tenure there were no serious communal incidents. It's not till Kandhamal happened that the whole picture changed.

Karan Thapar: People say that the whole problem you had over seat adjustments was in fact deliberately manufactured by you as a way of ensuring that the alliance would end and this is proven by the fact that when you made them an offer which you could live it, it was--even as you described it in your own words--a deliberately humiliating offer because you knew they would not accept it.

Naveen Patnaik: I have never called it in my own words, 'a deliberately humiliating offer'.

Karan Thapar: (BJP MP) Chandan Mitra said you did.

Naveen Patnaik: Well then I don't know what he is talking about.

Karan Thapar: But did you deliberately offer a derisory number of seats so as to force the alliance apart?

Naveen Patnaik: No, I think my offer was pretty realistic for they really could not afford to stand for more than a few seats because their whole period in the state government marked quite a lot of incompetence.

The people of Orissa are a peace-loving people and I think that they had gone off the BJP after Kandhamal, and you will see that after the results in the coming election, the results that come out on May 16.

Karan Thapar: It's interesting that the offer which I described as derisory and humiliating, you described as realistic. That suggests to me that as far as you were concerned, you weren't prepared for them to have more and you were offering them something they couldn't accept, then in fact it was a way to break the alliance.

Naveen Patnaik: I had given them a realistic offer and indeed it did break the alliance. Now you may read whatever you like between the lines.

Karan Thapar: Many people were surprised with the swiftness with which you managed to find new allies almost immediately thereafter.

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Had you been in touch with the Left parties and the NCP and had they given you some understanding or assurance that if you did break with the BJP, they would be there to stand behind and beside you?

Naveen Patnaik: Well Karan, you may look at the other side of the picture. They could have found me rather than me finding them, the new seat-adjustment partner parties.

Karan Thapar: The only problem is that they would be re-finding you. The Naveen Patnaik that they thought they had as a friend and an ally from the days of the Janata Dal--when you first succeeded and took over from your father--is very different from the Naveen Patnaik that existed when you were with the BJP.

So if they found you, that's actually re-finding you. You went back to the Janata Dal principles that you stood for in those days and the 11 years with the BJP was an aberration.

Naveen Patnaik: You mean Naveen Patnaik revisited?

Karan Thapar: Absolutely. But let me get back to this more serious point. Had you been in touch, had you sent out feelers to the NCP and the Left?

Naveen Patnaik: In politics of course, as you know, one meets friends from all parties and we all air our points of view. We moved very swiftly once the alliance broke down. Our new friends very quickly offered their support for which I am very grateful.

Karan Thapar: If I read you correctly, then you had been in touch with them - perhaps quietly, perhaps surreptitiously - but you had a sense of assurance that they would be there.

Naveen Patnaik: Nothing surreptitious about it at all. It's all quite clear.

Karan Thapar: Done quite openly?

Naveen Patnaik: I think Karan sometimes you will see things in black and white. Things are sometimes a bit more subtle than that.

Karan Thapar: Who was your point of contact with the Left? Was it A B Bardhan of the CPI or was it the Karats of the CPM?

Naveen Patnaik: I have a number of friends in all parties.

Karan Thapar: So despite the fact that the Left had been critical of you during Kandhamal just six months earlier, you still had a relationship that you could rely on in this hour of need.

Naveen Patnaik: One has many long-standing friends in some parties, yes indeed.

Karan Thapar: That sounds like you are talking about Brinda Karat.

Naveen Patnaik: Like you I have known her virtually all her life.

Karan Thapar: And it was a relationship which was politically useful?

Naveen Patnaik: I don't think we use each other politically.

Karan Thapar: But you came to each other's assistance because it suited both of you.

Naveen Patnaik: I don't think it is as simple as that. It is a straight, clear-cut seat-adjustment with three parties - the CPI, the CPM and the NCP.

Karan Thapar: You have been now in politics for 11 years. Would you accept today that politics is your profession or would you simply describe it today as your present day occupation?

Naveen Patnaik: I would describe it as myself being very fortunate to be in this position because one can really be of service and do good.

Karan Thapar: Well that is a politician answering and it is a glib answer but it's not answering my question. Is politics your profession or occupation?

Naveen Patnaik: I would consider it my full time profession and occupation, whichever you like.

Karan Thapar: Which one would you call it because there is a difference between profession and occupation. I would say one is temporary and the other is a calling.

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Naveen Patnaik: Well as of now it is a profession.

Karan Thapar: If you win, will this be your last term as Chief Minister or having finished then 14 years in office would you want a fourth term?

Naveen Patnaik: Let's see how it goes.

Karan Thapar: You mean you could be hungry for more?

Naveen Patnaik: I think that as long as - and you may think this is a very hackneyed or cliché way of speaking - but as long as one is interested and can do good and the people wish to elect you, then there is no harm in that at all.

Karan Thapar: All right. Naveen Patnaik, a pleasure talking to you.

Naveen Patnaik: And to you Karan.