Click to play videoIs the Congress in trouble and is the Government the cause of it? Those are the two key questions Karan Thapar asked Congress General Secretary Digvijay Singh in an exclusive interview on Devil’s Advocate.
Karan Thapar: Mr Digvijay Singh, after losing Punjab and Uttarakhand, the Congress has no real presence in the Hindi heartland of Northern India expect for little Haryana and even smaller Himachal Pradesh and Delhi. Can you accept that this is not a happy position for Congress to be in?
Digvijay Singh: Well, if you see the post-96 scenario, we had less states then than what we have today. When everyone was writing off the Congress, it came back.
Karan Thapar: Except that to slip back all the way to 1996 is not a happy way of consoling yourself.
Digvijay Singh: We have not yet gone to’96 situation. But you know these are all state-specific issues…we were in government (in Punjab and Uttarakhand).
Karan Thapar: No, let me interrupt you there. If you look at the map of India and exclude the Northeast, there are only three Congress governments and three coalition governments out of the 19 states. Surely, that has weakened your position as a mainstream party?
Digvijay Singh: Certainly not. We are in government in Government of India and we are either in government or are the largest Opposition in the states.
Karan Thapar: Increasing, unfortunately, in the states you are in Opposition.
Digvijay Singh: Again, Karan, you are going back to the same thing. We have been doing consistently well, and in these two states, we had anti-incumbency as a very major factor. Let me tell you anti-incumbency is a major factor in Indian politics today.
Karan Thapar: Maybe, but anti-incumbency means unhappiness with the sort of rule you provided. That is damaging for a party that is ruling…
Digvijay Singh: It is not only that, it is not only governance, but something else also. There is anti-incumbency against the local candidates too.
Karan Thapar: You are absolutely right that it is not just anti-incumbency, it is much worse. Because in fact the situation is going to get worse, not better. To begin with, you are not going to cover yourself with glory in Uttar Pradesh. There is a very good possibility that you could lose Goa and you are unlikely to win Gujarat. The future is going to get worse and worse.
Digvijay Singh: No, you are pre-judging the issue and you are jumping the issue. The point I tried to make was that anti-incumbency is not only against the government, it is against the incumbent legislator too.
Karan Thapar: Except the problem is that in this instance, the party that is benefiting from the reserves you are suffering is your arch-rival, the BJP. They have taken 16 urban seats from you in Punjab, dislodged your government in Uttarakhand and you failed to dislodge them in the Mumbai municipality.
Digvijay Singh: Probably, Karan, you were asking the same question to the BJP when we won Punjab and Uttarakahnd at that time.
Karan Thapar: Except at the moment I am asking the question to Congress, and there is not much consolation that the BJP has been through it.
Digvijay Singh: This is what I was trying to say that this is a process which will keep on happening. There are a number of other factors also. After all, in Punjab in spite of being an incumbent government, our vote share has gone up.
Karan Thapar: Yes, but you lost power and that’s what counts.
Digvijay Singh: We lost mainly in urban areas…it was more because we could not change the candidates.
Karan Thapar: You could have, you just failed to.
Digvijay Singh: This is what I am saying, but in rural areas we did much better than last time.
Karan Thapar: So in addition to anti-incumbency it was the folly of persisting with candidates you should have changed.
Digvijay Singh: Selection of candidates is always a very tricky and very difficult issue.
Karan Thapar: But if you can admit now that you should have changed them, then you should have changed in advance. Not now, afterwards.
Digvijay Singh: The point I am trying to make is that selection of candidates is not easy — it is an assessment.
Karan Thapar: Can you accept that you got it wrong?
Digvijay Singh: Obviously, in certain constituencies…
Karan Thapar: In 16 constituencies in Punjab which you lost to the BJP you must have got it wrong?
Digvijay Singh: I was talking to the ex-chief minister of Punjab, Captain Amarinder Singh, and he was telling me that certain districts where we had won last time we were just swept away…
Karan Thapar: Quite right, and that’s something adds to the problem you face. That even where were winning you can’t retain your hold…
Digvijay Singh: But we won from other areas where we had lost the last time.
Karan Thapar: Then, in addition to not getting rid of candidates you should have got rid of, you got your campaign strategy wrong as well. You failed to secure what you had because you went after you didn’t have.
Digvijay Singh: Karan, it is easy to analyse as you are analysing today — it’s a much complex issue. But let me tell you that the Congress, as it stands today, does not feel threatened at all. We are confident — the performance of the UPA Government and the preparation we are going to go through for the 2009 election — we will again make it.
Karan Thapar: Well let’s test that grand claim. Sonia Gandhi, at the recent Parliamentary party meeting, publicly said that one of the main reasons why the Congress was defeated was inflation. The problem is inflation hits the aam aadmi more that it does anyone else. In effect, is the Congress’ claim to be the party of the aam aadmi today damaged?
Digvijay Singh: Inflation is definitely an issue. But it was an issue during the NDA government also — during 2000-2001, we had 8 per cent inflation for 12 weeks and more than 6 per cent for 48 weeks…
Karan Thapar: Again, that is no consolation. Today, the inflation is hitting the aam aadmi and you claim to be the aam aadmi party. The BJP never did.
Digvijay Singh: The difference is that then Government of India did not take adequate steps to contain inflation.
Karan Thapar: Is your government taking steps?
Digvijay Singh: We did. We have done.
Karan Thapar: Let us question that. Sonia Gandhi identifies inflation as perhaps the major reason why the Congress was defeated. I put it to you that it is another way of saying that the real cause of Congress defeat is the Manmohan Singh government’s inability to handle inflation. The government is the cause of your problem today.
Digvijay Singh: Again, you are simplifying thing this whole thing. The Congress Working Committee debated this issue twice, and we have come out with specific steps. Number One, we have taken out pulses and wheat from commodity exchange.
Karan Thapar: After six weeks of the Left clamouring; long after the Congress Working Committee suggested to the government. So the government doesn’t move?
Digvijay Singh: The other thing is we withdrew the earlier 2002 Government of India order — of the NDA government — which had withdrawn power of the states.
Karan Thapar: But there was a long gap between the Congress Working Committee, this action and the Government moving on it. Sometimes, there was a gap of almost three months. In other words, the point I am making holds, the government and its failure to tackle inflation is the cause of the Congress losing elections.
Digvijay Singh: No! To some extent maybe yes.
Karan Thapar: You accept it? To some extent.
Digvijay Singh: The Congress President accepts it, so who am I? But the point I am trying to make is that in the first (Congress) Working Committee meeting the decision was taken…
Karan Thapar: Name the date and you will suddenly realise the point I am making is being made by you today. Name the date to that meeting.
Digvijay Singh: I don’t remember the date.
Karan Thapar: It was six months ago.
Digvijay Singh: But the order to give powers to the state governments, to impose restrictions on holdings of essential commodities was taken within a month.
Karan Thapar: Mr Digvijay Singh, if there is a six-month gap between the Working Committee advising the government and the government acting, you are proving my point. The government is the problem you are facing today.
Digvijay Singh:Only one month, only one month after the Working Committee this order to…
Karan Thapar: Can I put something else to you? It is not just the handling of inflation by the government that has worked adversely for the Congress, there are two further steps it is contemplating that you don’t like.
The government’s position on SEZs is almost an anathema to the Congress. Secondly the belief that the government is prepared to permit large corporate houses and FDI in retail is an anathema with you. You keep advising caution, Sonia Gandhi keeps writing letters, the PM doesn’t bother.
Digvijay Singh: It is absolutely not correct. The Prime Minister did take action on the first Congress Working Committee recommendation — that of withdrawing the restriction on state governments on holding of essential commodities. Now the state governments also have to…
Karan Thapar: Where is inflation today? Has it come down? It is at 6 per cent.
Digvijay Singh: It has come down in those states where the governments took action. Maharashtra, Andhra Pradesh…
Karan Thapar: Are you saying that there different levels of inflation in different states and that you take some kind of pride in this?
Digvijay Singh: It is different from city to city, commodity to commodity.
Karan Thapar: Your voters don’t see it that way; your party cadres don’t see it that way; your general secretaries don’t see it that way.
Digvijay Singh: No, no. I am telling you from my own experience the prices are not uniform, not even in Delhi.
Karan Thapar: The sad part is the country doesn’t share your experience. The country today is complaining about prices. The Prime Minister concedes prices are high and yet suddenly the Congress that was worried about prices is now turning around.
Digvijay Singh: Karan, it is not the first time inflation has taken place in the country.
Karan Thapar: But you are in power today and you carry the can.
Digvijay Singh: State governments are also responsible for controlling inflation by, No. One, restricting the holding capacity of traders in essential commodities and No. Two, they take a strong de-holding exercise.
Karan Thapar: Let us move beyond inflation. Are you telling me that the Congress is not concerned by the impact of the Government’s economic policies and more importantly by the impact of some of the government’s economic loud thinking on its electoral fortunes.
Digvijay Singh: Special Economic Zone, the issue is simple: adequate compensation, market rate compensation to the land oustees — No. One. No Two, share of the stakeholders in the projects.
Karan Thapar: That is not what Sonia Gandhi said in Nainital. There she asked for something more than market-rate compensation, she asked for share in the development. That is not being given.
Digvijay Singh: She said market price to the oustees and share of the stakeholders in the project.
Karan Thapar: The government has not agreed to the second.
Digvijay Singh: They have. They are drafting a resettlement and rehabilitation policy, and it is again a state-specific issue.
Karan Thapar: The key question is: does the Congress have concern about the government’s economic policies or not?
Digvijay Singh: I have already told you.
Karan Thapar: Just give me a simple answer. Yes or no?
Digvijay Singh: We are all concerned about the economic issues. It’s not only the government, it is the party, everyone.
Karan Thapar: And is the party concerned that these economic policies and some of the loud thinking by ministers is going to work adversely?
Digvijay Singh: As far as SEZs are concerned, we are more concerned about the land oustees for whom we have taken appropriate steps.
Karan Thapar: You have not taken action. You have suggested it, it has not been agreed to.
Digvijay Singh: We have, and at the same there is a group of ministers which is considering this. We have conveyed to the state governments that they have to take into consideration the market price and stick to it.
Karan Thapar: So you are telling me that the government’s economic policies are now ceasing to be a matter of concern. You are happy with them?
Digvijay Singh: It will always be a matter of concern. It is a question of on what issues. As far as the whole price index is…
Karan Thapar: Don’t blind us with details, stick to the big picture. If the Congress remains concerned about the government’s economic policies, are you telling the Prime Minister that some of those policies are working against Congress’ interests?
Digvijay Singh:We have showed our concern about inflation, there is no doubt it. No. One. No. Two, we have brought the issue of land oustees in that meeting.
Karan Thapar: Have you got a response from the government that you think is adequate and suitable?
Digvijay Singh: The prices of wheat have started falling. The price of sugar has fallen. The price of pulses, if the de-holding exercise is done by the state governments, will come down.
Karan Thapar: So inflation has ceased to be a concern?
Digvijay Singh: No, it is a concern but the action taken by the Government of India is showing results now.
Karan Thapar: Are you happy with the speed at which the action is happening?
Digvijay Singh: Well it takes time. But this government acted, the last government did not act.
Karan Thapar: That is another matter but the problem is this government is the government you can influence. You couldn’t influence the last government.
Digvijay Singh: It has influenced. The Congress Working Committee has met twice to show its concern and because of this actions have been taken which has resulted in decline of prices.
Karan Thapar: Is it happening fast enough?
Digvijay Singh: Yes, fast enough.
Karan Thapar: So you are satisfied with the government?
Digvijay Singh: Totally.
Karan Thapar: Mr Digvijay Singh, we are talking about how actions or policies of the Manmohan Singh government are damaging the Congress. People say nothing has done greater damage to the Congress and particularly to Sonia Gandhi’s image than the government’s handling of Quattrocchi. The government bungled but Sonia Gandhi and the Congress are paying the price.
Digvijay Singh: Certainly not, the government did not bungle at all. Mr Quattrocchi was in India till 1993. Mr V P Singh…
Karan Thapar: Let us not go into history. Let us talk about the specific instance that has just happened. For 17 days, the government withheld information that Quattrocchi had been detained in Argentina. It sat on this information and only revealed it when it was leaked. Given that everyone knows that Quattrocchi is potentially embarrassing for Congress and specifically embarrassing for Sonia Gandhi, this was the wrong way of handling it.
Digvijay Singh: Certainly not. The government did not sit over it.
Karan Thapar: What did it do? It didn’t reveal it.
Digvijay Singh: It responded immediately to the demands of the Argentinean…
Karan Thapar: But it didn’t tell the Indian public.
Digvijay Singh: It made the issue public.
Karan Thapar: It didn’t make it public; it was leaked out.
Digvijay Singh: The minister in the Rajya Sabha came out with specific details on the entire process.
Karan Thapar: After the leak and after the Opposition and the press had prevailed upon the government. The minister did not explain in that note in Parliament why for 17 days the government was silent.
Digvijay Singh: It was not silent.
Karan Thapar:It was completely silent.
Digvijay Singh: It was responding to the Argentinean government; it was responding on every point, every day it was responding.
Karan Thapar: As far as the public was concerned, the government’s silence created suspicion. Let me explain why. After the Congress government had failed twice to appeal dubious judgments of the Delhi High Court and after the government was involved in the de-freezing of Quattrocchi’s accounts, many people, including many Congress supporters, were beginning to believe the worse. This silence, this deliberate refusal to make public added good cause for them believing the worse.
Digvijay Singh: You see the media and the Opposition have hyped the whole issue. But the point is that the NDA government had six years to implicate Quattrocchi.
Karan Thapar: Forget that, let us talk about your government, don’t go back to the NDA.
Digvijay Singh: My government responded the minute it came its notice.
Karan Thapar: Why then are your allies, D Raja of CPI and Sitaram Yechury of the CPM, publicly saying the Congress government’s handling of Quattrocchi has created suspicion? They are your allies; they are your allies—they should be supporting you but they are criticising you.
Digvijay Singh: I would not comment on remarks of my colleagues in the Left. But the point is that the CBI did not wait for an hour, they responded immediately.
Karan Thapar: It is not just that the government and the CBI withheld this knowledge from the Indian people, in addition they withheld it from the Supreme Court. Even when the Supreme Court was hearing a related matter. The Hindu, a paper which supports you, has described this as outrageous. Leading lawyers have said it is gross impropriety.
Digvijay Singh: I would not like to comment what The Hindu has said, but the point is the Government and the CBI did not delay the matter. They responded promptly, and there was no delay as far as the CBI’s handling of this case was concerned.
Karan Thapar: Mr Digvijay Singh, let me ask you for a little bit of confirmation. It is speculated that Rahul Gandhi and Priyanka Gandhi met up in February with Quattrocchi’s son Massimo when he was in this country. Did they?
Digvijay Singh: It is rubbish.
Karan Thapar: How do you know?
Digvijay Singh: Because it is rubbish.
Karan Thapar: How do you know?
Digvijay Singh: Because it is rubbish.
Karan Thapar: Did you ask Rahul and Priyanka?
Digvijay Singh: But did you ask Mr Quattrocchi’s son.
Karan Thapar: You are having to deny it; I am not happen to confirm it. I am simply asking it is speculated, how can you deny it?
Digvijay Singh: It is speculative and totally speculative.
Karan Thapar: But you have not checked with Rahul or Priyanka?
Digvijay Singh: There is no need to.
Karan Thapar: So then how do you know it is not true?
Digvijay Singh: Because it is rubbish.
Karan Thapar: Let me ask you specifically. Did Rahul and Priyanka meet with Massimo Quattrocchi at Jai Panda’s brother’s party in the Ahoka Hotel in February? That is the speculation.
Digvijay Singh: Well this is a speculation which some people have come out with but I don’t agree with this.
Karan Thapar: You don’t agree with it. Do you think it is possible they may have met and you don’t know about it? It is possible.
Digvijay Singh: The point I am trying to make is that the Government of India has never interfered in the investigation of the CBI…
Karan Thapar: I am talking about Rahul Gandhi and Priyanka Gandhi.
Digvijay Singh: As far as Rahul Gandhi and Priyanka Gandhi are concerned, they have nothing to do with it.
Karan Thapar: They have nothing to do with it officially but it is possible they may have met up at that party at The Ashoka.
Digvijay Singh: Well, I don’t know Quattrocchi’s son. So I don’t know about his whereabouts.
Karan Thapar: But you know Rahul Gandhi and Priyanka Gandhi.
Digvijay Singh: I don’t know about their whereabouts also.
Karan Thapar: Was there any contact, direct or indirect, any communication, direct or indirect, between Sonia Gandhi and Massimo Quattrocchi when he was in the country in February.
Digvijay Singh: Well, how can I come out with these statements.
Karan Thapar: So, there well may have been. You can’t deny that.
Digvijay Singh: There is no question, I have said so. It is totally speculative and this information is absolutely rubbish.
Karan Thapar: Let me end by putting it this way: Which is in the Congress’ greater interest? To secure the extradition of Quattrocchi and run the risk that he may say something that could compromise and embarrass the Gandhi family or fail to secure his extradition, incur the wrath of the press and the opposition but protect the name of the Gandhis? Which is in your interest?
Digvijay Singh: It is in the interest of the country, the CBI and the Congress and everyone that we successfully bring Quattrocchi back.
Karan Thapar: Most people are saying today that in fact whilst the Government is creating an impression that it is doing everything to extradite Quattrocchi, the Congress Party doesn’t want the Government to succeed.
Digvijay Singh: It is not correct at all. The CBI is working independently, the Government is not interfering in its functioning and CBI has taken all steps to get the extradition done.
Karan Thapar: Does the Congress Party want Quattrocchi extradited to India?
Digvijay Singh: Yes.
Karan Thapar: Does Sonia Gandhi want Quattrocchi extradited to India?
Digvijay Singh: Yes.
Karan Thapar: You have no doubt about it?
Digvijay Singh: No.
Karan Thapar: Digvijay Singh, a pleasure talking to you on Devil’s Advocate.
Digvijay Singh: My pleasure, sir.
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