'Counter-insurgency takes a toll on Army'

How does Chief of Army Staff General Deepak Kapoor perceive the security situation confronting India and is it just the borders that the Indian army is defending, or is it playing a large role in combating internal insurgency and communal violence as well. Karan Thapar asked this to Chief of Army Staff, General Deepak Kapoor on Devil’s Advocate.

Karan Thapar: Let's start with Pakistan. For almost a year that country has been in a state of political turmoil. What are the security implications for India in this situation?

General Deepak Kapoor With the elections now having taken place, I think the security situation as far as Pakistan is concerned should improve. When the situation was turbulent, we were a little worried that the extremists may want to infiltrate into our territory. Therefore we were very vigilant on the borders. However, now the elections have taken place, hopefully in the next two days they will have a new government formed and we will be able to talk to a democratically elected government to resolve our outstanding differences with them.

Karan Thapar: So the threat perception has lowered vis-a-vis Pakistan?

General Deepak Kapoor I would say that the threat perception has lowered. At times the infiltration that takes place in our areas is calibrated from the other side. It is only when we see that those signs have vanished and then it can be safely said that the threat perception has lowered.

Karan Thapar: What is the state of infiltration at the moment? Has it lowered, has it risen or is it stable?

General Deepak Kapoor Let me give you a comparison between 2006 and 2007. In 2006 the infiltration was approximately 343 as per our count and in 2007 it was 311. There is very marginal decline as far as infiltration numbers are concerned, but in terms of attempts, they were slightly higher in 2007.

Karan Thapar: Last year, when there was increasing critical turmoil and it seemed that Pakistan might come off the rails, were you as Army Chief worried that the Pakistan Army might be prone to some sort of ambitious action on the border just to deflect the tension at home.

General Deepak Kapoor That kind of a worry can always be there. But we have taken the kind of measures that we were needed to take. We were maintaining a regular vigil on our borders and were ready for any kind of eventuality. But with the kind of commitment that the Pakistan Army has on its western borders and within the country, the possibility of this kind of adventurism would not be very high.

Karan Thapar: The Pakistan Army is now in the hands of General Ashfaq Kiyani. How do you assess him?

General Deepak Kapoor I think General Ashfaq Kiyani is a professional soldier and he has gone through so to say the mill and come up as a capable officer, and I think he will be able to handle the Pakistan Army professionally.

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Karan Thapar: So in a sense he is a reassurance in terms of being at the top of the Pakistani Army?

General Deepak Kapoor Going by the measures that he has taken, I think it is reassuring to have a person who is a professional at the head of the Pakistani Army.

Karan Thapar: Let's turn to china. Recently, head of the Indo-Tibetan Border Police revealed, that in the year ending October 2007, there have been over a 140 incursions across the Line of Actual Control. Indian newspapers say that in the last two years there have been perhaps some 300 incursions, some of them going inside five km in the Indian territory. How serious is this?

General Deepak Kapoor I think degree of misperception has been built on this particular issue of incursions and I have talked about it earlier also to the media. First of all, it is a matter of perception. Chinese have a different perception of the Line of Actual Control, as do we. When we come up to their perception, we call it incursion and likewise they do. If we tell you in the year 2007, the level of total number of incursions, if we put all of them together, it is somewhat similar to what has been in the past. So the feeling that too many incursions are taking place in the Indian territory is not right.

Karan Thapar: So you are saying two important things. First of all you are saying that there has not been so called increase in Chinese incursions. And secondly you are suggesting that just as they incur into our territory, we probably as often incur into their territory, because of the difference in perceptions where the line is.

General Deepak Kapoor That’s right.

Karan Thapar: So they could just as easily turn around and say that India is incurring into ours…

General Deepak Kapoor Which they would call it an incursion onto their side, to that extent we would be as much blameworthy for that kind of incursion while going up to our perceived line of the line of actual control.

Karan Thapar: So the way the press fears that the incursions are a sign of muscle flexing and perhaps something worst to come. That is not the view you share?

General Deepak Kapoor I don’t share that view at all and this issue that you raised about them coming somewhere around five km inside the Indian territory. I don’t think that any such instance occurred and that’s why I say that the press has not been very fair in reporting it accurately.

Karan Thapar: Lets come to the second aspect of the Indo-China border. Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee has readily accepted that the Chinese infrastructure on their side of the border in Arunachal Pradesh, roads and railways in particular, 'to use his words' are far superior to us. The question is what is far superior. Is there any truth to the belief that the Chinese can virtually drive a luxury car up to their side of the border but on the Indian side, for at least 10 miles, access is limited to foot patrols and mule tracks?

General Deepak Kapoor The fact that China has developed their infrastructure in the past few years is not in doubt. Even our Raksha Mantri (Defence Minister) praised their infrastructure while visiting Nathu La. The way the infrastructure has come up, it firstly has led to a tremendous amount of development in the area and secondly it gives them the capability to bring additional troops, if and when they do want to bring in. So that’s an area where we need to be on equal footing from our side. The fact that our infrastructure is not so developed is a fact and that’s why our government is taking measures with the aim to speed up that basic infrastructure.

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Karan Thapar: It is said in the magazine India Today for example that only three Indian posts in Arunachal Pradesh are accessible by road and all the others have to be accessed by mule or foot.

General Deepak Kapoor The infrastructure is already coming up and it is a matter of time that we will be able to link up most of our posts by road.

Karan Thapar: But at the moment the disparity does exist?

General Deepak Kapoor There is a disparity and we are seriously looking into it and we are trying to change it.

Karan Thapar: But it is a fairly sharp disparity? The last few miles for the Indian army are the difficult miles to cove, whereas the Chinese can come right up to their side.

General Deepak Kapoor Mr Thapar, it must be understood in the context that are we in any way in a difficult position as far as the Line of Actual Control is concerned. If you were to ask me that question, then I would give you an answer that 'No we are not'. We are on our side fully vigilant and we are capable of looking after ourselves even with the kind of infrastructure that exists.

Karan Thapar: You are saying that there is a disparity but not a disparity that we can’t handle. In a way the army has learnt to operate with what is effectively a disadvantage.

General Deepak Kapoor I would not call it a disadvantage. We as an army are deployed all along the Line of Actual Control and we are quite deployed in areas where we need to hold them strongly and we have plans to be able to hold them well.

Karan Thapar: Just a moment ago you mentioned that their infrastructure allows them to move troops very quickly. Recently the Indian Express reported that with the result of roads and railways, the Chinese can move two divisions amounting to 10,000 troops within a space of 20-25 days. Earlier it would have taken three-six months. Does that worry you a little?

General Deepak Kapoor Well that is a matter of concern, but the fact is that if and when they move, there are also images available through the means of satellite when any such movements take place. So there is ample opportunity for sufficient notice to meet such a challenge, if and when it does arise.

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Karan Thapar: So with satellites, you mean that every time China moves troops substantially, you know in advance and you can take counter measures.

General Deepak Kapoor The ability to look deeper across the Line of Actual Control is much greater.

Karan Thapar: So technology has helped you overcome the disparity as well. Let's broaden the picture a little now. It’s said that the Chinese have something between 3,00,000-5,00,000 soldiers in Tibet. Maybe as many as 14 military bases, 10 missile bases and then there is what’s called famously the Chinese 'String of Pearls' stretching from Burma through Bangladesh, all the way across Tibet, Pakistan and also the interest in the Indian ocean. How do you view this situation?

General Deepak Kapoor Let me put it this way. Every nation, while developing its infrastructure, while meeting up its economic needs, develops a set of basis and roots for itself in terms of infrastructure development and what you would like to say its base in the Indian ocean, which you talked about. If you notice that the bulk of energy needs of China for example are being met through the Middle East route through the Indian Ocean.

Karan Thapar: Because they need a base?

General Deepak Kapoor So they would need some of the staging areas for supplying all these to them.

Karan Thapar: You are suggesting that these aren’t necessarily threats to India. These are part of China’s strategy to protect it’s on economic interest.

General Deepak Kapoor Let us face it that both China and India are developing economies and both are developing very fast. And that assured, there would be a degree of competitiveness for the resources that are there. That is a separate issue altogether. But every one of the base that China develops may not necessarily be seen as its attempt to encircle India.

Karan Thapar: There are some people who say that the 'String of Pearls', even if it may not be China’s intention, should be viewed as a portentous encirclement of India. Would you as an Army Chief, who is responsible ultimately for the country's security, see it that way, or would you say that it is an exaggerated way of looking at it.

General Deepak Kapoor When we sit together and discuss any threats to our national security, we would take all this into our discussions and then come to a conclusion wheher what should be taken as a threat and what should not be.

Karan Thapar: Does that mean that you do bear in mind the possibility that 'String of Pearls' could be an encirclement but it does not worry you.

General Deepak Kapoor Any developments occurring in the region are a matter of study and they must be therefore studied in the light of security considerations and it must also be seen in a context of what do we need to do, should there be a requirement that they pose a challenge to us.

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Karan Thapar: Eternal vigilance is what gives you peace of mind

General Deepak Kapoor That is perhaps very aptly said by you.

Karan Thapar: It is not only the borders that the Indian army is defending, you also play a large role in combating internal insurgency and communal violence. Does it worry you the army is increasingly involved in the internal security.

General Deepak Kapoor First and foremost, I would like to say that the army’s primary role remains the defence and maintaining the territorial integrity of the country.

Karan Thapar:: And that’s what is should be!

General Deepak Kapoor Yes, and that is what is should be. The secondary role is to come to the aid of civil authority and that should invariably happen once the civil authority has utilised all other resources.

Karan Thapar: So this is the last resort?

General Deepak Kapoor The armed forces must always be seen as the last resort, if and when they are called upon. So it’s a decision that the civil authority takes, having exhausted all its law and order resources. If they do feel that the situation is out of control, I think they are well within their rights to ask the army to come and assist them.

Karan Thapar: When they ask you, instantly you provide support. But what is the cost to the army when the soldiers are to fight their countrymen. I know they are trained to fire on the enemies, but what happens when they have to shoot their own countrymen?

General Deepak Kapoor Before that I would like to say that when our troops are called for counter-insurgency operations, it does happen at the expense of the training that we do for war against the enemy.

Karan Thapar: And at the cost of war preparedness as well.

General Deepak Kapoor Also there is a degree of involvement within our own country which may detract from the primary role which we always have to keep at the back of our minds.

Karan Thapar: Given also that your army consists of people from all over the country. It could have a cohesion effect on soldiers and their relationships with the regiment as well.

General Deepak Kapoor As far as the cohesion part is concerned, I think the army is very well trained not to worry about this aspect of cohesion being touched in any fashion. But the fact is that the first and foremost the army must be used only as the last resort for any of these contingencies. Secondly it should be used for a minimal period so that the deterrent effect in the area where it is used should stay when the army withdraws.

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Karan Thapar: So prolonged and frequent use of the army actually undermines its deterrent effect. It begins to erode the fear and awe that the army should create in people.

General Deepak Kapoor That is right. But having said that, if the need of the situation demands that the armed forces have to be deployed, I think what has happened in Jammu and Kashmir and Northeast, there was very much a requirement for armed forces to be deployed to meet that situation. And perhaps, that is why today you find, thanks to the actions of the security forces at both these regions, the situation is much better.

Karan Thapar: There is an understandable reason why in Jammu and Kashmir and Northeast the army has to be used, but would you say that bringing the army in the Naxal conflict, even in limited districts of Chattisgarh would perhaps be a little hasty and unwise.

General Deepak Kapoor I do not think anyone in the army or within the hierarchy of the government is contemplating that the army should be used in the Naxalite area. Infact the Raksha Mantri (Defence Minister) has been very forthright in that the army should not be used in these areas. Firstly because we have not come into that last resort situation where the army has to be called in. Secondly there are enough resources with the state law and order agencies and the central government to tackle the situation. The army is always there in the background to assist in training the police forces and carry out those operations against Naxalites and also to talk about doctrines and train people of the paramilitary forces and the state police in tackling the Naxalites in their very areas.

Karan Thapar: You have said almost three or four times that the army should be used only as a last resort and it should only be used for a minimum period. Do you sometimes get a feeling that perhaps the army is used a little before it is needed and its use is little prolonged longer than needed?

General Deepak Kapoor I think there is a little misplaced feeling because all I meant was that as a concept it must be viewed as an element of last resort and used as such. Otherwise in the normal course there are adequate police forces both at the state and centre to tackle situations.

Karan Thapar: Can I give you an example where people might ask was it necessarily the last resort. Recently there was in December or end of November, trouble in Kolkata and the army was called in and it had to flag march and control the situation. Do you think the state government was a little hasty in calling the army and that it should have waited a little longer and used its paramilitary forces?

General Deepak Kapoor I would say that once the state government made a request, we went ahead and did it, because we thought the situation could be brought under control in a faster time frame and I think in that point in time it was done rightly.

Karan Thapar: The message that you are giving is that use the army, the army is there and it will do its job but bear in mind that it must be always a weapon of last resort and must be used minimally for the minimum period required. You must bear in mind that when you use the army, there are costs incurred in terms of training, in terms of war preparedness and possibly in terms of feelings of psychological emotions of soldiers when they have to shoot on their countrymen.

General Deepak Kapoor You summed it better than even I could do.