Click to play videoExternal Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee has “tremendous faith” in Pakistan’s people that they would resolve the crisis in their country, but says India has to deal with whoever is in power there. In an interview to Karan Thapar on Devil’s Advocate, he spoke about Chinese “incursions” in Indian territory and hinted that Sri Lanka was free to deal with the LTTE as it liked.
Karan Thapar: Foreign Minister, there is a widespread belief that Pakistan faces the gravest threat to its unity in 60 years, at a time when the government in Islamabad has lost all credibility with the people. How do you view the state of affairs in Pakistan?
Pranab Mukherjee: There is a problem, no doubt, but at the same time I am quite confident that the resilience of the system and the people of Pakistan—I do hope—will overcome this crisis. After all we shall have to keep in mind that in different phases there have been different kinds of problems in the history of Pakistan, but somehow or the other the people of Pakistan and the system there have managed the situation.
So let us hope, because in our interest we want a stable, peaceful and prosperous Pakistan. It is an important neighbour of ours, and in our neighbourhood we would like to have peace, stability and development.
Karan Thapar: You are talking about the resilience of Pakistan and its people, does that mean you don’t share the fear—many experts have it—that Pakistan could be breaking up.
Pranab Mukherjee: I am not coming to any such conclusion. Experts have the liberty to pass their judgment, make analysis—that is the privilege of analysts and journalists. But as a representative of the Government, my job is to deal with the representative of Pakistan.
Karan Thapar: Let me quote to you what American scholar Stephen Cohen wrote on December 27, 2007, the day Benazir Bhutto was assassinated. He wrote, “I fear for Pakistan, its further decay will affect all its neighbours in unpredictable and unpleasant ways.” Do you share that concern?
Pranab Mukherjee: Of course the problem is that whenever there is instability in the neighbourhood it has its impact on the other countries. It goes without saying.
Karan Thapar: So instability in Pakistan will have an impact on the neighbourhood?
Pranab Mukherjee: Instability in Pakistan will naturally have an adverse impact on us and other neighbours of Pakistan, but I am not coming to the definitive conclusion and let us hope that Pakistan would be able to address the problems in the way they want to. Let us hope stability will be brought back and peace, prosperity and development will take place.
Karan Thapar: Do you have a special committee or special monitors watching the situation for you carefully? Have you put in place mechanisms to watch what is happening carefully?
Pranab Mukherjee: There is a mechanism to share information…
Karan Thapar: To watch Pakistan for you?
Pranab Mukherjee: There is no group of experts as such to watch developments in Pakistan but we are watching, we are getting reports from our mission and also we are analysing the information coming from different sources and trying to share our perceptions.
Karan Thapar: You say that you are getting regular reports from your mission in Islamabad. Does your mission view General Pervez Musharraf as part of the problem or does it see him as part of the solution?
Pranab Mukherjee: Your question is like the leading question of a criminal lawyer. If I say yes there is one set of problems and if I say no there is another set of problems.
Karan Thapar: You have to grant it that it is better than a misleading question.
Pranab Mukherjee: First of all we are interested in the peace, stability and development of Pakistan. As I responded to an earlier question that we are to deal with whoever is in office in Pakistan. Therefore, we do not make any value judgment of any individual.
Karan Thapar: Don’t make a value judgment, but the people of India look upon you as Foreign Minister for some sort of understanding, for some sense of guidance on what is happening in Pakistan. In that light let me ask then that do you believe General Musharraf is stable at the moment or is he in danger of being removed, perhaps by the army or perhaps overtaken by political developments?
Pranab Mukherjee: Only future events will show what course of action will be taken by the establishment in Pakistan or the people of Pakistan. From the past history we have seen that developments have taken a particular turn at a particular point of time but it is not always predictable.
Karan Thapar: So unpredictability is the key word for Pakistan at the moment?
Pranab Mukherjee: I am not saying that unpredictability is there, but an element of unpredictability is there though I can’t say that the situation will not turn around in a positive manner. As I started my observations by saying that I have tremendous faith in the resilience of the Pakistani people to manage their crisis.
Karan Thapar: Now it was reported in the Indian papers that the government wanted to send you as Foreign Minister to attend Benazir Bhutto’s funeral but you were advised by the Pakistani government that it might be better if you were not to come. Is that correct?
Pranab Mukherjee: It is correct, because it is merely not respect of me but in respect of all other countries. Various countries showed interest but they were advised not to come because firstly it was not declared as some sort of state mourning—state mourning was there but it was not a state funeral as such and arrangements were not made to that extent.
Secondly, the law and order situation at the place where the burial took place was not conducive to receive representatives of foreign governments. Therefore, in this hour of difficulty, we did not want to embarrass the authorities and we listened to their advice.
Karan Thapar: As you assess Benazir Bhutto, do you see her as a friend of India?
Pranab Mukherjee: In fact when she was in government earlier, she was the Prime Minister and I was Foreign Minister. Several times at the margin of several international events outside India or Pakistan I had interacted with her and it appeared to me that she had a sincere desire to improve the relationship between India and Pakistan.
Karan Thapar: So her death is in a sense a setback to the improvement of Delhi-Islamabad relation?
Pranab Mukherjee: You know if a tall leader dies, particularly in our neighbourhood, we naturally feel sad because he or she might have contributed to the relationship between our two countries.
Karan Thapar: And in Benazir Bhutto’s case that was a real prospect, the improvement.
Pranab Mukherjee: Her coming back to Pakistan after a long time had kindled hopes for the restoration of normal democratic process to a considerable extent in Pakistan.
Karan Thapar: Now ‘The Hindu’ on January 5, 2008 reports that as the turmoil in Pakistan gets worse groups such as the Lashkar have begun to replenish their cadre and rebuild their operational capability. Are you worried that you could see a sharp increase in infiltration as well as jehadi activity targeted at India?
Pranab Mukherjee: We shall have to wait till the snow melts and the paths are cleared, particularly in Jammu and Kashmir. But infiltration has never stopped completely, sometimes the number has increased and sometimes it has decreased, therefore our advice to the security forces has always been be on alert and maintain vigil.
Karan Thapar: But once again you are keeping yourself alert to the possibility that infiltration and jehadi activity could build up because of the turmoil in Pakistan.
Pranab Mukherjee: As I said that let us not link it with the turmoil in the country, because terrorist activities from the other side of the border have never completely stopped.
Karan Thapar: In other words this is a situation you have to watch. The Prime Minister on Sunday goes to China—it is a visit that is taking place after months of reports in the papers of alleged Chinese incursions across the Line of Actual Control and even into Bhutan. Are these reports of frequent Chinese incursions, both in number and in scale and scope, accurate?
Pranab Mukherjee: Sometimes incursions take place. We immediately take it up. There is a regular channel through which we exchange information. There is an institutional mechanism in the border. You know when we signed the treaty of peace and tranquility in the border in 1993 and again in 1996, thereafter certain mechanisms were established through which we address these types of problems.
Karan Thapar: But has the number and frequency of incursions increased?
Pranab Mukherjee: It is not unusual (but) it has suddenly not increased.
Karan Thapar: So there is nothing worrying about this?
Pranab Mukherjee: There is nothing to be worried about at this point of time, and the mechanisms which we have are doing well.
Karan Thapar: The reason I asked this is that the ‘Hindustan Times’ claims that the head of the Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) has said that in the year ending October 2007 there were over a 140 incursions. ‘India Today’ claims there a few of them in September that went as far as five km into the Indian territory.
Pranab Mukherjee: Sometimes the incursions take place, as I mentioned to you. Every incursion is taken care of; it is being addressed through the established mechanism and the same practice is continued.
Karan Thapar: ‘The Indian Express’ had a report a couple of days ago that says Chinese infrastructure in terms of road and railway around the border area of Arunachal Pradesh has increased and improved so significantly that they can now move two divisions, which is 10,000 troops, in just 20-25 days. Apparently, it earlier took anywhere between three and six months.
Pranab Mukherjee: As far as the development of infrastructure on the other side of the Indo-China border is concerned, their infrastructure in terms of roads, electricity availability of other facilities is much superior to that of infrastructural facilities available on our side of the border. It is a known fact and that is why we have recently decided that we should also build up roads and other types of infrastructural facility.
Karan Thapar: Speaking privately, generals in the Indian army don’t deny that the difference in infrastructure between the two sides give the Chinese troops a significant advantage over Indian troops. As someone who was the Defence Minister just 16 months ago, are they right to be concerned?
Pranab Mukherjee: With the situation that is prevailing right now at the border, there is no need of pressing any panic button. Peace and tranquility are being retained there and various confidence-building measures are being regularly taken up—for instance participation of troops of both sides on different occasions, national days and festivals.
Karan Thapar: But the important thing is that there is no need to press the panic button.
Pranab Mukherjee: As I told you one should remain absolutely alert, vigilant but need not be panicky.
Karan Thapar: Last week the Sri Lankan government announced that with effect from January 15 it intends to abrogate the ceasefire agreement with the LTTE. In your eyes is this a mistake or this given the spate of LTTE attacks in recent months both understandable and perhaps also inevitable?
Pranab Mukherjee: We shall have to see what impact it has. Of late clashes between Sri Lankan forces and the LTTE terrorists have increased. So far as terrorism is concerned India’s position is quite clear: zero tolerance. Therefore, any country that takes action against terrorists is free to do so within their legal system.
Karan Thapar: But you are not criticising Sri Lanka for abrogating the ceasefire accord?
Pranab Mukherjee: Because we are not party to it, please remember that. We were never a party to it; attempts were made to drag us to be a party to it but we scrupulously avoided it for obvious reasons.
Karan Thapar: I understand so you have no comment to make on the abrogation either.
Pranab Mukherjee: What I have stated is that so far as the fight against terrorists is concerned, it is one issue. But so far the solution to the problems of ethnic minority, including the Tamilians, so that their legitimate aspirations are fulfilled within the system of Sri Lanka, that effort must not go lax and should continue to arrive at a solution.
Karan Thapar: It is well known that the Prime Minister has been invited to Sri Lanka to be the chief guest at their 60th anniversary celebrations, which are on February 4. Clearly this is a significant honour for the Prime Minister; the question is will he accept.
Pranab Mukherjee: It has not yet been decided.
Karan Thapar: But isn’t it getting a bit rude and discourteous to Sri Lanka not to make up your mind, one way or the other?
Pranab Mukherjee: No, because we require time. As and when it is decided we will let you know, but no decision has been taken.
Karan Thapar: Are you hostage to Indian Tamil politics?
Pranab Mukherjee: No, that has nothing to do with it. Sri Lanka is going to host the SAARC summit this year, naturally we will be going there.
Karan Thapar: That is a commitment?
Pranab Mukherjee: Of course! That is a SAARC commitment, if it takes place. But if they don’t hold this summit, then how would I go.
Karan Thapar: Then you are sure about the SAARC summit but you are not sure about February 4?
Pranab Mukherjee: Listen, if they hold the summit we would surely be going but so far to participate in their Independence Day no decision has yet been taken.
Karan Thapar: Foreign Minister, let us turn briefly to domestic politics. The BJP believes that Narendra Modi’s victory in Gujarat represents a turning point—large sections of the Press seem to agree. Would you accept that?
Pranab Mukherjee: It is an important victory, no doubt and the BJP as a political party should feel happy and satisfied. But in a Parliamentary democracy success or failure in elections is part of the game.
Karan Thapar: So, do you believe that Narendra Modi now represents a new pole in Indian politics, a new threat, a new figure around which saffron forces can unite?
Pranab Mukherjee: I do not use these types of epithets for an elected representative of the people. Good, bad or indifferent whatever politics he has it is his own politics. The people of Gujarat have expressed confidence in him as the Chief Minister and we have to accept it—it is as simple as that.
Karan Thapar: Does the Congress see Narendra Modi and a new revived BJP, that may be much more vigorous than either Vajpayee or Advani, as a bigger challenge?
Pranab Mukherjee: We do not believe in individuality, we believe in ideology and so we are totally against the BJP’s ideology of dividing the society on the basis of religion—whether it is of Narendra Modi, Vajpayee or Advani.
Karan Thapar: What about the fact that the issues Modi raised and won on in Gujarat could translate very easily outside India. He spoke about terrorism, regional pride, strong government and development. Those issues can be as effectively raised outside Gujarat as they were inside. Would not that pose a significant problem to you?
Pranab Mukherjee: These are issues which every political party raises at the time of elections. Not only in our country but also in various countries, especially developed countries. The question is that how people respond to it. In Gujarat people responded in a particular way, but we will have to see how the electorate in different parts (of India) respond and in what manner.
Karan Thapar: The Press believes that the phenomenon of Narendra Modi could come to loom over Indian politics in the years ahead. If that were to happen, do the non-BJP parties need an equally powerful personality to represent the opposite and in a sense be a counter to him?
Pranab Mukherjee: As I told you personality matters but it is not the only thing. It is basically the party’s programme, organisational strength, its ability to communicate its views to the people—so many factors are necessary to win an election. Now to what extent political parties can muster these factors into their favour is what the election results decide.
Karan Thapar: So you are saying the Congress is not worried about the rise of Narendra Modi?
Pranab Mukherjee: There is nothing to worry about the rise of any individual, or even by the success of a political party. I have seen in my not-so-long political life that political parties come and go. A political party winning two Lok Sabha seats in one election can increase it to 180 in less than 10 years. Therefore, these factors may be of interest to the media and journalists but in the long run it does not have that type of impact.
Karan Thapar: So a dominant Modi today could be a defeated Modi tomorrow, which is why you take it much more calmly than perhaps the Press.
Pranab Mukherjee: Of course.
(For updates you can share with your friends, follow IBNLive on Facebook, Twitter and Google+)
displayed with permission. Use of the CNN name and/or logo on or as part of CNN-IBN does not derogate from the intellectual property rights of Cable News Network in respect of them.