Click to play videoThe Union Minister for Information and Broadcasting, Priyaranjan Dasmunsi, explains the reasons behind his decision to ban FTV and AXN in India in an exclusive interview to Karan Thapar on Devil’s Advocate.
Karan Thapar: Minister, in the last four-months you have stopped the transmission of two channels on the grounds that their programmes are against ‘good taste’ and ‘decency’ and are likely to adversely affect public morality. What do you mean by ‘good taste’ and ‘decency’?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: The book speaks everything. The Cable Network Regulation Act defines it all.
Karan Thapar: But it doesn’t defines those words, I’m afraid. It gives you the power to ban, but it doesn’t define those words.
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: You must know first that even you can’t define obscenity. Can you?
Karan Thapar: I’m not banning any channel, but you are.
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: I’m competent to do so as per the law. You should know the provisions. The difficulty with you is that you are not updated with the provisions and the law.
Karan Thapar: Minister, you are missing the point. I don’t deny that you have the power to ban, you do. But I’m asking you, how you interpret the words ‘good taste’ and ‘decency’?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: I feel proud of banning FTV for two months. I feel proud as an Indian, as a citizen conscious about the culture and the dignity of women. I feel proud of it.
Karan Thapar: But you are not answering my question. I’m asking you a simple question: how do you understand the words ‘good taste’, ‘morality’ and ‘dignity’? Define to me what do you mean by them?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: As you define or every citizen defines, what is right or wrong is not subscribed by any individual’s notion. It is supported by the law. Whenever a complaint comes from a viewer, it gets examined by the concerned desk. It is then put to the entire ministerial committee represented by five ministries…
Karan Thapar:No, minister. The problem is this: the words ‘taste’, ‘decency’ and ‘morality’ are highly subjective. Philosophers have quarreled over what they mean. I put it to you, what makes you believe the politicians and the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting, in particular are the right people to define these words?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: This is the power given to me by the Parliament.
Karan Thapar: That’s the power to act under those, but not to define them.
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: I do not like to compromise and I do not like to undermine the Indian society with all the women organisations, with the principals of the schools, the college principals, with the civic society and their sense and wisdom.
Karan Thapar: Tell me simply, what do you mean by ‘good taste’ and ‘decency’?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: Anything that affects the individual taste and moral attitude to the society.
Karan Thapar: When does taste becomes good, when does it becomes bad?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: When the committee feels it is bad, it is bad. If the committee feels it is not bad, it is not bad.
Karan Thapar: So the committee is arbitrary. The committee decides on its own for the whole country.
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: No, the committee is not arbitrary. The committee is also empowered by the law.
Karan Thapar: Please tell me one thing. Why should adult Indians not have the right to decide for themselves what is ‘good taste’ and what is ‘decency’.
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: Can you put a committee of 70 crore people of this country to this? No, you can’t.
Karan Thapar: Let every adult individual decide for himself. If he/she has the right to choose the government that they want, don’t they have the right to decide what’s good and bad programming?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: No. I think you are talking something, which only mad people can talk. Can the electorate sit together in every constituency and decide what is to be shown and what’s not. Why is there a Censor Board? You answer me now why is there a Censor Board? Why is there an editorial board for a newspaper? Why is there an editorial board in your television? Why not you limit it to the people?
Karan Thapar: Do you not want me to ask you a question? Do you want to just keep talking?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: You told me adults of India can sit and decide. Where will they sit? Which forum will they sit in?
Karan Thapar: Minister, the difference between a human being and an animal is that human beings have a moral conscience. That moral conscience gives him the power to decide between the right and wrong, moral and immoral and between proper and improper.
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: So you want to put that the ministerial committee has no human instinct?
Karan Thapar: Let me finish my question. By making a decision for them, you are denying their humanity. You are trampling on their individuality. You are treating them like children. Why?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: I think unfortunately your gaze and assessment of viewing the whole thing is not the viewing assessment of the Indian people. If I’m banning FTV, more than a million people greeted me by telegram and they are young people.
Karan Thapar: Let’s take those two instances in a little bit of detail. Let’s start with your order of January 17 banning AXN where you cited the programme World’s Sexiest Advertisements. you said that the programme transgresses ‘good taste’ and ‘decency’. Have you seen that programme yourself?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: I have seen it.
Karan Thapar: Do you find it sexy?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: Absolutely.
Karan Thapar: Oh you find it sexy?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: I felt it is wrong and it is in bad taste. I tell you, no less than the channel admitted they were wrong. What more do you want to say?
Karan Thapar: You put the channel under pressure, they are bound to admit.
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: The channel itself did not challenge, did not go to court. They gave in writing to newspapers, ‘we are sorry’.
Karan Thapar: That was because they were being banned and they wanted the ban revoked. You had them over a barell; you were exercising your powers.
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: There are many channels that have gone to court and got stay.
Karan Thapar: Let me put a point to you. The one thing World’s Sexiest Advertisement is not sexy, it may be funny, satirical or may be idiotic. Sexy it’s not. Have you been misled by the title?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: I am not misled. I am a conscious citizen. I know what is right and wrong, but I do not apply my judgement. I go by the law, by the court and I go by the ASCI (Advertising Standards Council of India), which you have accepted as a guiding bureau of the country’s advertisements. I am asking you: do you accept as a channel its nodal guidance on advertisement or not?
Karan Thapar: I am asking you the central question. No one denies that you have the power. The question is how do you define the words on which you act?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: I ask you whether as a channel you accept ASCI as a forum to clear ads and to object to them. ASCI has no representation from government, ASCI is not represented by ministers.
Karan Thapar: Instead of continuously interrupting me, permit me to ask a full question so that you can answer it. Let me look closely at your order of March 29 whereby you ban FTV.
In that order, you cited a programme called Midnight Hot. You said of the programme that it showed skimpily dressed and semi-naked models that are against good taste and decency and are likely to affect public morality. Have you forgotten that India gave the world the Kamasutra , Khajurao and Konark. In comparison to that, Midnight Hot is actually midnight bland.
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: Karan, if you give me one-hour’s time, I could like to join this debate with you and I can score at the end of the day. Please don’t combine and compare the thing that was exhibited in AXN or FTV with Kamasutra, Konark temple and Ajanta-Ellora. I’m a student of art and literature. I know the philosophical aesthetic sense of art and culture. But please don’t try to compare FTV’s Midnight Hot with Kamasutra and all this.
Karan Thapar: I don’t see why not?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: There is an age which will explain to you Kamasutra. Kamasutra is not read by students in day time.
Karan Thapar: I see no reason why they can’t be compared. But let me not get into a childish argument with you. Let me make another point. You said Midnight Hot showing models in skin-tight bikinis is denigrating of women. The models, however, were wearing the bikinis voluntarily and willingly. On the other hand, what about the women in burqa? The burqa hides their sex. It demonstrates that they are under the possession of men, destroys their identity. Why don’t you ban programmes where women are shown in burqas? Doesn’t that denigrate women?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: I do not think so. Women in this country have a right to choose their costumes, their wear and their headgear. I’m not against that.
Karan Thapar: Then why can’t we see women in bikinis on television after 11 at night?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: The question is that the FTV ban was not for this. You should know that.
Karan Thapar: What was then the FTV ban for?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: You do not know that’s why you are saying all this.
Karan Thapar: I know why the FTV ban was put up. Here is your order from the IB website.
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: I’m not going to argue with your papers. I’m going to stand by the papers that the government issued. Do you know what happened before the order? First clause is to issue a show cause. Then they have to reply. Then we have to negotiate, then they are to satisfy. They ignored all these things one after another. Simply because they are a foreign channel, they don’t care about Indian laws.
Karan Thapar: But Minister, in the case of FTV — since you are determined to go into technical details, I’m going to answer equally technically as well — you had issued a notice in summer and by September-October, the programme concerned was taken off. Yet, five months later, after it was taken off, vindictively you put a ban on the channel.
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: That’s not correct.
Karan Thapar: I’m quoting to you what FTV has told me themselves.
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: That’s not correct. Let FTV say so in writing. Why don’t they go to the court?
Karan Thapar: Let’s not get into a fight over FTV.
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: A foreign channel should not think that Indian law is so petty that it cannot do anything.
Karan Thapar: At the end of the day, the two programmes that you found offensive were being shown at 11’O clock at night — at a time when most people believe adult viewing should be permitted. Even the committee that you have appointed to advise on content code has suggested the same. Why do you disagree with them?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: Suggested and accepted are not the same. We are considering the entire matter under the Broadcasting Law.
Karan Thapar: Will there be an adult time in the future?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: I may very coolly inform you Karan - please listen to me for half-a-minute. The channel not only did not respond to us, the channel even defied the show cause. Those things were not on the 11 pm slot. You can watch it whole day.
Karan Thapar: Minister, Midnight Hot was, in fact, being shown at 12 am, even later than 11 pm.
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: Karan, I do not know how many times you watch Midnight Hot at 12.
Karan Thapar: I have checked with the channel.
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: According to my monitoring authority, which is looking after all these things, it was not only in the midnight, but many a time, they had planned to show it in day time also.
Karan Thapar: Minister, planned it to show and if they did not show it in the end - how does it matter?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: It matters, obviously.
Karan Thapar: Mere planning is sufficient?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: No, no. They have their own way of showing this.
Karan Thapar: Let me put it like this. Let me, for argument’s sake, accept all the things that you have said. Many others wouldn’t, but for argument’s sake we would. Even if you are right on these two programmes, is it fair to ban the entire channel because one programme is wrong? Is that fair? Is that proportionate?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: No channel is banned forever. It is a ban for two months with the right to appeal. And they have submitted their appeal, and the appeal will be examined next week.
Karan Thapar: Does the Prime Minister support what you have done? Or is he embarrassed? Or is he in disagreement with you?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: Don’t drag the Prime Minister’s name everywhere. I am a minister on oath and I am carrying out the policy.
Karan Thapar: Your answer suggests he doesn’t agree with you. Have you embarrassed him?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: No, no. I have not embarrassed the Prime Minister. I am carrying out my task fully in accordance with the law…
Karan Thapar: Do you have his support in banning these channels?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: Without the support of the Prime Minister, no minister can function in the government.
Karan Thapar: Minister, in the last one month, on two separate subjects Mani Shankar Aiyar has adopted public positions at complete variance with the position of the Government of India. Is this a sign that there are serious differences within the Government or do Mani Shankar’s views not matter?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: Well, I must honestly say, in Cabinet, whomsoever speaks, whatever they like and whatever their own ministerial performance and policies, those are secrets, as you know, as per the oath before the Rashtrapati. And Cabinet decisions are conveyed to the public as collective view by me as a spokesman.
Karan Thapar: Absolutely. And you conveyed a collective view on the 12th of April that the Cabinet has decided to indorse India’s bid for the Asian Games?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: Absolutely.
Karan Thapar: Mani Shankar Aiyar has separately, in a speech to CII, said that he disagrees with the decision. He believes that the money could be better spent. He believes hosting the Asian Games in India will have no benefit for the people of the country.
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: I must give my support both to Mani and to the Cabinet. Mani did only one wrong thing. In the Cabinet, Mani argued if it could be postponed or deferred so that something could be done for other development works. But the collective wisdom of the Cabinet went in favour of bidding for the Games and he said, ‘I stand by what the Cabinet decides’.
Karan Thapar: So, should he then have spoken out at CII distancing himself from a Cabinet decision and criticising it as well?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: I do not know what exactly he spoke at the CII. But I do feel Mani’s perception was that more money is required to be spent for development. That’s his perception. Mani never said, ‘I disagree with the decision of the Cabinet.’
Karan Thapar: No, Mani didn’t say it in so many words. But Mani made it crystal clear that he didn’t agree with it. And he also said that the money could be spent better. He also said, in fact, that there will be no benefit for the poor people of India.
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: Mani said. I didn’t say.
Karan Thapar: So, was Mani right to speak out in this way, distancing himself and disagreeing with the Cabinet?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: No, Mani didn’t distance himself. Mani on the other hand said, ‘I present my case, the collective wisdom of the Cabinet should decide.’ And when collective wisdom is there, Mani is a party…
Karan Thapar: That’s what he said in the Cabinet. What about what he said outside?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: Mani didn’t give a descent. I have to check with Mani, what he said outside.
Karan Thapar: You will check with Mani? And if it emerges that, in fact, outside Mani not only distanced himself from the Cabinet decision, but criticised it in effect, then would Mani have been wrong?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: Well, I do feel that no Cabinet Minister, for any decision of the Cabinet, should give his individual view in public - howsoever good or bad it could be.
Karan Thapar: The problem is that Mani Shankar Aiyar did it a second time as well. He has also now made it clear that he has serious reservations about the economic policy of the Government. To begin with, he said he thinks it is unduly influenced by the CII. And secondly, he said, he believes that its priority is wrong and he has even given an example. He says that there are major reservations about spending Rs 650 crore on village development, but spending Rs 7,000 crore for the Asian Games is not a problem, it considered a national pride.
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: The issue you should understand first is that Mani is not a person whose mind is tuned to the value of sporting activities of the world and the country. He always admits that, ‘I do not believe why should you spend so much for sports’. But one thing I must tell you, Mani never questioned or opposed the decision of the Cabinet. Mani did say, in the CII session, ‘I as a party member say that this economic policy should be tuned in that order and this order’. That’s a different part altogether.
Karan Thapar: Minister, you are trying to minimise the impact of what Mani said…
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: No, no…
Karan Thapar: Let me make you aware of something else. Not only has he said that the Government’s economic policies are unduly influenced by the CII and that its priority is wrong, he has even mocked - and I mean that, he has mocked –the Government’s proud boast of 9.2 per cent growth. He says, and I quote, “0.2 per cent of our people are growing at 9.2 per cent. But there is a very large number, whose growth rate is perhaps down to 0.2 per cent.”
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: You see, Mani is saying it in Press, I read it in newspapers. But I had no occasion to check it with Mani what was his intention, what was his purpose. It will be wrong on my part to make any comment on him. But I should only say no minister in the Government, who agrees with a collective policy of the Government, should flaunt his individual views in public, in the capacity of a minister.
Karan Thapar: Ah. No individual, who is in Government, should flaunt his individual views in public as a minister. In other words, he should not be disagreeing with the Government - that’s what you are saying?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: Absolutely.
Karan Thapar: So, Mani has embarrassed the Government by speaking out in this way?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: I will not make any comment on that.
Karan Thapar: Mani, in fact, went even further. Not only did he mock the Government’s proud boast of growth rate, not only he disagreed with the economic policies, he has actually made fun of his senior Cabinet colleagues. He says, and I am quoting once gain, that “one of the most influential minister in the Government cares more about the national pride than about doing meaningful things for the poor of the country.”
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: I do not think these are the correct perceptions of any minister, including Mani. These are not the right perceptions. In the political party forum, you can raise any issue that you like on the collective issue of policy of the Government or on economic issues. For instance on SEZ, we thought it should be tuned in a different manner. But in the policy of the Cabinet, those who are in the Government, they have the right to express their concerns in the Cabinet. But after Cabinet decides, none should take an individual position in public.
Karan Thapar: And no minister should run down other influential ministers in this way?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: Absolutely. There is no question of influential, non-influential. If I feel I have disagreed with the Cabinet and I have to address the people, I should better come out of the Government.
Karan Thapar: In other words, if you have disagreement with the Cabinet in the Government, leave the Government, don’t criticise it in public. That’s what you say?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: Well, I do feel that is the principle of every minister in the Government.
Karan Thapar: And Mani has, it seems, breached that principle?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: If Mani has done this, it’s Mani’s conscience. Since, I have not talked to Mani, I can’t say anything on him.
Karan Thapar: Mani has also said one other thing. This time, he said it about himself. He says, “There is nobody so marginal in the Government as the Minister of Panchayati Raj.” He adds, “I count for nothing,” and he repeats, “Nothing”. Is Mani accurate about himself?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: These are Mani’s assertions, idioms, adjectives, pronounces, names, nouns — those are very popular among Indian public. Right from when he was in foreign office, Mani’s way of speaking, Mani’s way of dealing with things are Mani’s style - I should say Mani’s styles. I should only say, unless I have a talk, as a spokesman of the Cabinet, as to what Mani wanted to mean and what he said — because many a times what I say, you can twist it in a different manner in newspapers…
Karan Thapar: But, I am not twisting it. So, if what I am saying is accurate and Mani hasn’t yet contradicted it and it’s been five day since this has been revealed, then this is wrong of Mani? Yes or no?
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: Well, yes. If he has not contradicted, it is wrong. If he comes out with a contradiction, it is right.
Karan Thapar: Minister, thank you for talking in Devil’s Advocate.
Priyaranjan Dasmunsi: Thank you.
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