Click to play videoIs the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) or its leadership in crisis? That's the key issue Karan Thapar explored with the former president of the party and a man that many believe could be the future president as well – Venkaiah Naidu.
Karan Thapar: Mr Naidu, let's start with LK Advani. He has been unaccustomedly quiet and withdrawn since the elections, he is hardly seen or heard these days, is he depressed?
M Venkaiah Naidu: Who said it? He is very much active. He will be there in Maharashtra for the election campaign. He is guiding us on every matter. Should he go on speaking without any need unless there is a reason?
Karan Thapar: Is LK Advani going through a personal political crisis?
M Venkaiah Naidu: Not at all. Where is the crisis? He is the man who is responsible for building the party and guiding the party upto this level. Winning and losing happens in elections. Do you mean to say that once you lose elections, there is a crisis?
Karan Thapar: Many believe that LK Advani is constantly caught up in controversies one after another. For instance, do you believe as he now claims that at the parliamentary board meeting on August 19 in Shimla, he was against the decision to expel Jaswant Singh?
M Venkaiah Naidu: My point is do we need these issues to be discussed time and again? People have other important works also. That has been clarified by himself.
Karan Thapar: When you say he ‘clarified it,’ I am quoting what he said, “These reports are correct that I was not in an agreement with the decision to expel Jaswant Singh.”
M Venkaiah Naidu: My point is why are you trying to rake up another controversy. It's a known fact that in a democratic party everybody has the right to express their views. Views were expressed and a unanimous decision was taken. We heard his view, which he has said.
Karan Thapar: Then it wasn't a unanimous decision?
M Venkaiah Naidu: Why?
Karan Thapar:Because he was opposed to the decision to expel Jaswant Singh.
M Venkaiah Naidu: You mean to say that one man purposes and everybody agrees is a unanimous decision? In the BJP, we discuss issues, we listen to various views and finally we come to a conclusion, we call it the unanimous decision. There was no dissenting voice in the Shimla meeting.
Karan Thapar: Do you confirm that LK Advani expressed an opinion stating that expelling Jaswant Singh was not the right thing to do?
M Venkaiah Naidu: Yes.
Karan Thapar:Because the reason I ask you is this. Rajnath Singh went on record after the expulsion to say that it was unanimous decision and there was no dissent. Rajnath had gone further and said that no one had spoken against it. You are now clarifying that Mr Advani had expressed an opinion against it?
M Venkaiah Naidu: Expelling a colleague who had been in the party for over 25-35 years is a painful thing but there is no other way and the party colleagues have discussed it and then Advaniji heard everybody and finally it was a unanimous decision.
Karan Thapar: But Advaniji's first position was against the expulsion?
M Venkaiah Naidu: My point is let us not go back to each and every issue which are not relevant today. Yes, I say that initially his views were different. He had said whether there was a need for expulsion and were there no other alternatives. This sort of discussion took place. Members felt that Jaswant Singhji's book contained many objectionable references. The view in the meeting was that in no way we could keep quiet on this book and we had to take action. And everybody agreed, Advaniji also agreed.
Karan Thapar: Was Mr Advani persuaded to change his mind or did he simply agree to go ahead with the consensus of everyone else?
M Venkaiah Naidu: Advaniji is a democratic person. He may have his own views but once the colleagues discuss and he understands the mood of the people and the general consensus, he goes by it. That day also the same thing happened.
Karan Thapar: So he accepted the view of the majority?
M Venkaiah Naidu: He accepted the view of all colleagues.
Karan Thapar: In other words, he sublimated his views and accepted that of others?
M Venkaiah Naidu: Advaniji went by the unanimous decision of the party. There is no controversy. Let us not create new controversies.
Karan Thapar: Let's then broaden the subject. Many people say that over the last six-seven months Mr Advani has been involved in so many controversies – Kandhahar, Modi, Mohan Bhagwat specifying what the best age for the leadership of the BJP is, Arun Shourie suggesting that Mr Advani had lied and Jaswant Singh saying that he was involved in the cash-for-vote scam. They now say that Mr Advani's leadership and perhaps even his standing and image is compromised. Would you accept that?
M Venkaiah Naidu: I don't think so at all. Advaniji is the most spotless personality in Indian politics. His contributions are also known to the entire country. He did not create any controversies.
Karan Thapar: Is his image still as sparkling as it was six months ago? Can you accept that in the last six months he suffered some damage?
M Venkaiah Naidu: May be in account of certain news stories or certain comments that people made, but the basic character and image remains the same.
Karan Thapar: But do you accept that because of certain news stories, he has suffered in the last six months?
M Venkaiah Naidu: He has not suffered any image loss at all. Advani stands high in the eyes of the public. If somebody goes out of the party and makes an allegation, there is no need to give any value to that.
Karan Thapar: A moment ago you said may be because of news stories he suffered.
M Venkaiah Naidu: An impression might has been created. I am not arguing with you on vocabulary or English words.
Karan Thapar: But the impression has been created?
M Venkaiah Naidu: Advaniji stands even today the tallest leader of the country. Nobody can question his character, caliber and capability. Nobody can put an accusing finger on him. His impeccable integrity is there.
Karan Thapar: But as you said, the impression and the image could have been affected?
M Venkaiah Naidu: As far as impressions go, one can mislead and give a headline and say something. But for the general people of India, they are intelligent and have common sense, they understand at the end of the day what is the personality of the man.
Karan Thapar: In these circumstances how long can Mr Advani continue?
M Venkaiah Naidu: Why are we even discussing this?
Karan Thapar: On September 29 he told Swami Vishweshwar Teerth that he wants to retire from politics. He said it himself and in fact the Swami said those words – he said Mr Advani wants to retire.
M Venkaiah Naidu: I have no comments to make on that. Whatever I have to say, I will say it to Advaniji and discuss it on the party's forum. But I will try to be fair to you and the people. After we lost this Lok Sabha election, Shri Advani has conveyed to all of us in clear terms that the party should choose a new leader for the 15th Lok Sabha and that he has been given enough opportunity. He feels that someone else should take over the leadership. But we, the Parliamentary Board and the senior colleagues of the party including chief ministers, we all persuaded him saying that – Sir, in this hour of defeat, we need your leadership, you please accept it. Only after so much of persuasion did he accept to remain the leader of the party.
Karan Thapar: You said something very important in the middle of that answer. In this hour of defeat, please accept the leadership. How long will this hour of defeat last? Many people believe that Mr Advani could step down in January when Mr Rajnath Singh's tenure ends. Is that likely, is that possible?
M Venkaiah Naidu: There is no correlation between these two. Advaniji has been elected as the leader of the party for the 15th Lok Sabha. Advaniji reluctantly agreed. He was persuaded. And then, when Advaniji wants to make way for the others, it is going to be his choice. Nobody has given him any deadline; and these headlines in the newspapers are all write-ups by newspapers.
Karan Thapar: You said something else which is important. Whenever Mr Advani wants to make place for anyone, it is his choice. So, does this mean that the next time Mr Advani tells his party that he wants to step down, you will let him do so?
M Venkaiah Naidu: Let us not discuss hypothetical issues. He is a senior personality, a great leader. It is his choice. My point is very simple. The party has requested him to please reconsider. Please lead the party, please guide the party because you know when you lose an election and that too a second time, there is bound to be some amount of demoralisation. So, we wanted him to be the leader and guide us. In the process of leadership change et all is a normal process. When he wants to leave the post and announces another person as the next leader, that will be done by Advaniji and if necessary, he will consult us.
Karan Thapar: I will just repeat it so that the audience will know what exactly you have said. You said that whenever he wants to leave the posts, it is his choice and that you are leaving the timing to Mr Advani.
M Venkaiah Naidu: Undoubtedly. He has been elected as a leader. Why are we even discussing this, I am not able to understand.
Karan Thapar: Whatever time he chooses to step down, will be fine with the party?
M Venkaiah Naidu: Party will decide. How can one man speak for the entire party? I am just telling you about the spirit in which he has agreed to be the leader.
Karan Thapar: Is it likely that Mr Advani, who will be 82 next month, could continue as leader of the Opposition till 2014, by when he will be 87.
M Venkaiah Naidu: I do not want to guess, I will tell you one thing categorically. I am going one step forward. Advaniji is not going to contest next election. We are not going to fight the next general election under his leadership. I have no idea when the next General Elections are going to happen. I was unable to understand why you were giving dates, putting deadlines and then asking questions.
Karan Thapar: I understand one thing. You said that Mr Advani will not be the head of the BJP when you contest the next elections. Presumably, the new leader will need a little time to settle in. Therefore, the new leader will take over from Mr Advani a year or two before the next elections.
M Venkaiah Naidu: These are all suggestions.
Karan Thapar: And it sounds logical?
M Venkaiah Naidu: Sir, political parties first discuss issues and then come to conclusions according to the need of the hour and by consensus.
Karan Thapar: You have said something very important, I am not going to contest it. I do not want anything to unravel. I think the message has gone home crystal clear.
Jaswant Singh, Yashwant Sinha, Arun Shourie, Vasundhara Raje Scindia, suddenly one after another, senior leaders of the BJP are defying the party leadership. They refuse to obey what they are told to do. The party with a difference now looks like a party with differences. What has gone wrong?
M Venkaiah Naidu: Jaswant Singh is out of the party. Yashwant Sinha is busy campaigning in Jharkhand, Vasundhara Raje is very much there in the party. There is not question of defying. I met her a few days back and we discussed matters. She said whatever party decides I am willing to do that. What is the problem, I don’t understand?
Karan Thapar: Let’s take Vasundhara Raje’s example first. Almost two months have passed since the party asked her to step down from the post of leader of the Opposition in the Rajasthan Vidhan Sabha, she has still refused to do so?
M Venkaiah Naidu: The party has asked me to talk to her. She came here on August 31 and she caught viral fever and took sometime and she met me recently. Now we are in the thick of elections. Let the elections be over then you will come to know about our decision.
Karan Thapar: In other words, she has recovered from her illness and recovered but you are still giving her time?
M Venkaiah Naidu: Should I decide all these things in front of a camera? Is media a forum for parties to finalise decisions?
Karan Thapar: Except for the fact that when party gives instructions for someone to step down and two months have passed it has not been done so?
M Venkaiah Naidu: The party gave an instruction to Venkaiah Naidu, former president of the party to talk to her and find out her views and also understand the political situation in Rajasthan and take the next step. I have discussed it. We have had some meaningful discussion. I have conveyed it to Mr Rajnath Singh and Advaniji and we have decided till October 13 and before the polling this issue should not be discussed.
Karan Thapar: The issue itself should not be discussed now till October 13 when the polling in Maharashtra and Haryana finish. What connection Maharashtra and Haryana have with Rajasthan, I don’t know.
M Venkaiah Naidu: We are fully occupied and engaged in the elections. My point is why this sought of urgency on saying that someone is defying the party. She said she is a loyal worker of the party and I am confident that she will go by what the party says.
Karan Thapar: Will she therefore on October 13, 14 or 15, when the elections will be over, resign?
M Venkaiah Naidu: Whatever we decide she will do, you don’t have to worry about that.
Karan Thapar: Is it possible that you may change your mind?
M Venkaiah Naidu: Possible or not, I leave it to you. I am confident that whatever says she will do it and what party wants her to do, we will decide once the elections are over.
Karan Thapar: This is a very interesting answer that whatever party tells her she will do, the question is will the party change its mind? Let me ask you clearly, is the party changing now its mind? Is it possible that you may withdraw your decision or not ask her to resign and she may continue as the Leader of the Opposition in Rajasthan?
M Venkaiah Naidu: These are again your assumptions and presumptions. Certain view has been taken, party has asked me to discuss with her. She was not well. When she came back we discussed. I reported to the leadership. Once the elections are over, we will sit together and answers will be called and a view will be taken. There is nothing to worry, there is no crisis.
Karan Thapar: You are a very clever politician. You are saying we will sit together and a view will be taken but you are not saying what that view will be.
M Venkaiah Naidu: I am not clever. How can you decide what one will say then?
Karan Thapar: At this moment, for me your answer to my question is that she will resign is likely as she will continue.
M Venkaiah Naidu: Whatever the party decides.
Karan Thapar: Let us come to Arun Shourie. He has publicly called your party president ‘Alice in Blunderland’, ‘Humpty Dumpty’, he has mocked him comparing him to Tarzan. In long articles in The Indian Express he suggested that Advani has lied and that his Jinnah transgressions are a lot worse than Jaswant Singh’s and yet again you have taken no effective actions against him.
M Venkaiah Naidu: Being a senior person I don’t discuss party’s intra-party matters in media. I have all the respect towards Arun Shourie and we don’t approve his writings with reference to the president with regard to Advani. What needs to be done will be decided by the party.
Karan Thapar: This is very interesting that you don’t approve what he writes about the president or Advani and yet you can’t make up your mind about what to do.
M Venkaiah Naidu: Sir, are you going to dictate us what we need to do or not?
Karan Thapar: How long does it take you to decide?
M Venkaiah Naidu: Heavens are not going to fall. We are busy with the elections, relief operations and many other things. How to deal with a situation at what appropriate time will be decided by the party.
Karan Thapar: Heavens no doubt won’t fall but Arun Shourie has got away not just by snubbing you but also criticising and ridiculing you. He is laughing because he tells people that they will never throw me out.
M Venkaiah Naidu: I don’t you that I don’t discuss party issue in media. We discuss it in appropriate form and when or how we discuss it leave it to us.
Karan Thapar: You know what people are saying? When they look at the Vasundhara Raje scenario and Arun Shourie, they say that suddenly the BJP is riddled with indiscipline and defiance and in response the party leadership is helpless, paralysed.
M Venkaiah Naidu: How big he or she may be no one can defy the party. The question is that we are a democratic party, we have a system wherein we discuss, debate how to go about it. Sometimes we might take time also but simply because of this you cannot say that we are riddled with all indiscipline of the country. I am not denying that some instances of indiscipline have affected the party’s image but to bring the name of the individuals and then asking what you are going to do to this man or woman, this is not the way a politician should respond. Moreover, it is not an individual’s party, it is driven by everyone.
Karan Thapar: My last question. Is there no one in complete control of the BJP, neither Rajnath Singh nor LK Advani?
M Venkaiah Naidu: Not at all. It is not the question of control. Is it a dynasty or a family-controlled concern or a limited company that somebody will have the control? The party workers across the country have the control over the party. We have a system and we function according to it. We take clue from what you say but we don’t go completely by what the media writes or says and decide a deadline and act upon it. We have our own way of functioning.
Karan Thapar: So, as you say you have your own way of functioning. It is mystifying a lot of people but you have a right to your own way. It was a pleasure talking to you.
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