Click to play videoThe Sukna cantonment land scam is an “individual misdemeanour” and does not reflect on the Army, insists General Deepak Kapoor, Chief of the Army Staff. Kapoor accepts that the scam has to “some extent embarrassed” the Army but assures “it will not go unpunished”. Kapoor told Karan Thapar on Devil’s Advocate he believed the media should be better informed about how military law works while reporting about the scam.
Karan Thapar: Let’s start with the Sukhna land scandal which has been headline news for the last three months. Would you accept this has embarrassed the Indian army and has affected the way Indian people look at the Indian Army?
Gen Deepak Kapoor: Yes, Karan to some extent it has embarrassed the Indian Army. But I would say what is more important is to see what steps the organization has taken to try and ensure such incidents do not get repeated.
Karan Thapar: Looking back and given that this is a matter of propriety and there are no specific charges of corruption, could it have been handled better?
Gen Deepak Kapoor: I think in our country the media has been super active on this issue and I think if they had been better informed and if they knew how the military system of law works, they would have handled it in a more positive fashion than in a purely negative perspective.
Karan Thapar: Would you say the media has been unfair?
Gen Deepak Kapoor: Possibly, at times they may have been over reactive. Keeping in mind the sensationalism, TRP ratings etc are involved, they may have been overactive to sensationalise the issue.
Karan Thapar: In a statement dated 1st Dec 2009 the Eastern Command of the Indian Army said the press coverage “amounts to character assassination of senior army officers”. Is that also your view?
Gen Deepak Kapoor: It could well be to an extent yes. Because if it is based on totally informed issues, then definitely it would be appropriate. But when at times when it is not fully informed, not fully aware of all the facts, and then passing judgments really amounts to character assassination.
Karan Thapar: Since you say the media was not well informed, shouldn’t the media have been informed better, given more information by the army?
Gen Deepak Kapoor: That has always been attempted and continuously my media staff has been trying to interact with the media to give the overall perspective to them.
Karan Thapar: So would you say it was done inadequately?
Gen Deepak Kapoor: I don’t think it was done inadequately. I would say it depends on how at times they could sensationalise those aspects. The same kind of news could be given in a positive or a negative twist.
Karan Thapar: Are you saying the media has been sensationalising the issue?
Gen Deepak Kapoor: No, I would only say that media has not been fair and objective in this particular case and to an extent has sensationalised the issue especially when things like scam, scandal etc have been talked about. When you refer to a scam it means certain amount of money involvement, wrongdoing in terms of making money etc etc. As far as this case is concerned there has been no indication of any kind of money involvement.
Karan Thapar: Should the media treat senior officers, not just Generals but Brigadiers, Major Generals who are charged with corruption differently from the rest of the people?
Gen Deepak Kapoor: No, not at all ! I don’t think so. In fact, every person who has to face some kind of investigation should be treated at the same level without any problem at all.
Karan Thapar: Hasn’t the media done so? That is, treat the other people with the same intensity and focus as they have done for Army officers?
Gen Deepak Kapoor: I think since the entire process of disciplinary proceedings are on, it would be too premature to pass a judgment on that. We would get to know with the passage of time, as to if the media been totally fair or not.
Karan Thapar: Let me come back to my original question. Could this have been handled better?
Gen Deepak Kapoor: If I may suggest to you, it was not an outside agency, Karan, which asked us or pointed out the flaw to us. It was the Army itself. The organization is resilient, objective and is concerned of its image in the public eye. So, keeping that in mind the enquiry was ordered by the Army itself. Therefore it has been self-corrective action which has been undertaken by us.
Karan Thapar: So, there are no decisions or actions which in hindsight should have been taken differently?
Gen Deepak Kapoor: I think we have gone totally by the way it should have been done and that is what we follow throughout.
Karan Thapar: The press and several of your predecessors have raised certain issues I want to touch upon. First of all, before you made your initial decision to take action against the four indicted generals did you consult the Defence Minister?
Gen Deepak Kapoor: Karan, you know it is a process. When such a thing happens, obviously the Defence Minister will also be concerned, when some senior officers have alleged to be involved in a thing like this. So a degree of interaction always takes place and it is not right to assume that no such interaction takes place. Naturally, I have to keep the government informed of the happenings in the organization.
Karan Thapar: If I understand correctly, you are saying you had discussed the matter with the Defence Minister before taking the first step?
Gen Deepak Kapoor: I said it is an ongoing process and It may be wrong to assume some actions are taken in isolation. It is an ongoing continuous process and that’s what you would expect a professional organization handling an issue like this to do.
Karan Thapar: So there were consultations with the Minister all the time?
Gen Deepak Kapoor: I leave it to you (but) I’ve said that in as many words.
Karan Thapar: Second, do you think you erred in initially proposing administrative action for three of the officers and disciplinary action for one? Should you not have considered the same punishment for all four?
Gen Deepak Kapoor: As I covered earlier some time back, when I had to look at the issue, I had to ensure that I was fair, just, that everyone was looked at, based on the degree of culpability involved of that individual in the case. You cannot put everyone on the same bracket and, therefore, kind of tie with the same kind of hooks.
So, therefore having seen that, I also had to be concerned that what is the kind of effect it would have on the organization as a whole. All these are considerations and finally, let me also be very clear that I had also to be concerned that my decision does not be swayed either by personal or media bias when it was taken.
Karan Thapar: So the same punishment for all four would not have been justified?
Gen Deepak Kapoor: That’s right.
Karan Thapar: The media believe you appear to have been softer on General Prakash, who as Military Secretary was close to you.
Gen Deepak Kapoor: I have covered the aspect that I had to be conscious of the fact that I did not have any personal or media pressure on myself. Let me also put it this way that General Prakash is one of the PSOs (Principal Staff Officer).
I have total of eight PSOs serving under me and they happen to be there by virtue of whatever professional reputation they have enjoyed in the past. Therefore one PSO is as dear or far away from me as the other.
Karan Thapar: So the accusation that you have been partial to General Prakash is unfair?
Gen Deepak Kapoor: I would say that.
Karan Thapar: Third, many people feel the Defence Minister was wrong to have made public his advice that you should take disciplinary action against Gen Prakash. This step has been seen by many as interfering with the prerogatives of the Army Chief and undermining the office of the Chief of Army Staff.
Gen Deepak Kapoor: Firstly, I would not like to comment on the aspect of Defence Minister being wrong. I would not like to comment on that. Secondly, it is a matter of advice. When we are interacting certain amount of discussion, debate does take place. And when I have to take a decision, I had to take all the factors into considerations.
The Court of Inquiry, findings, its opinion, the show cause notice, the response to it and all other relevant facts when I come to a conclusion. Therefore, I have taken that decision and that is what has been promulgated.
Another aspect I would like to touch upon is that the aspect of legal recourse is not complete. Only the first step has been taken in the form of Court of Inquiry. There are other aspects which are going to continue which include the Summary of Evidence which will happen.
Court of Inquiry is only a fact-finding body which establishes a prima facie case and once the summary of evidence has been written down, that is when the Commanding Officer looks at the facts and then decides what has to be done next.
Another aspect which I wish to clarify is, somehow in the civilian perception the meaning of court martial is not really understood. It really implies trial by a military court. Sometimes there is a perception on the civil side that just because a person is being tried by Court Martial he is bound to get the worst of punishment or he is headed for the gallows. That is not right. In fact it is meant as any other court to perform a function. There are many people who have been acquitted in the past.
Karan Thapar: Coming back to the Defence Minister’s public advice. If I understand your answer correctly there is nothing wrong or improper in that.
Gen Deepak Kapoor: I don’t think the Defence Minister gave any public advice. I am sorry but just because it has been orchestrated in the media doesn’t mean it becomes public advice.
Karan Thapar: It was leaked to the media and probably deliberately.
Gen Deepak Kapoor: Look, I do not know about that, as to how the media got hold of it.
Karan Thapar: But does it embarrass you? The fact that the media has found out about it?
Gen Deepak Kapoor: That is a separate issue, and it has no concern with me. As I said I was looking at the facts of the case and I would like to be away from any kind of media pressure to say. This doesn’t matter to me.
Karan Thapar: The reason I brought up the Defence Minister’s advice is because it is connected to the fourth issue that I want to bring up. After issuing a show cause notice, on what grounds did you change your mind and opt for disciplinary action instead.
Gen Deepak Kapoor: Like I said, I just covered this aspect a little while back, when I said that besides fact finding opinion of the court the reply to the show cause notice was also considered. When we look at all these facts, I did what I felt was the best course of action and when this happens all the aspects of the case would also come out.
Karan Thapar: The media has said that you were under pressure from the Defence Minister to change to disciplinary action.
Gen Deepak Kapoor: The media has talked a lot about so called pressure on the Army Chief but, like I stated in the beginning, the media has not been fair on the Army Chief.
Without trying to criticize the media let me put it this way that if the media had armed themselves with better knowledge of the legal system within the Army and better knowledge of the facts perhaps they would have treated the subject a little differently than what they did.
Karan Thapar: In your earlier answer you mentioned that one of the factors that made you change your mind to recommend disciplinary action was the reply you got from the show cause notice issued to Gen. Prakash.
But in the Armed Forces tribunal his lawyer has publicly said, and the papers have published this, that you undertook to order disciplinary action without applying your mind to his reply. In fact the lawyer said the proof of this is that you ordered disciplinary action within 48 hrs of receiving his reply.
Gen Deepak Kapoor: I think we are getting for too much into the specifics of the case. The case is still in its initial stages, only the first portion has been completed and it will be inappropriate for me to go into further details.
The issue has been set into motion whether the Armed Forces Tribunal or the recording of Summary of Evidence, whenever that happens Karan. I would like to refrain from any further comments than what I have already said--
Karan Thapar: I understand your reluctance to be drawn deeper into what is a tricky and awkward situation. But one more question that has been again in the media in recent days.
If the Armed Forces Tribunal was to decide that the Court of Inquiry, which was initially conducted, was improperly conducted because Gen Avdesh Prakash was not present when witnesses deposed, as is required by Army rule 180, would that not then mean that what ever action you took thereafter including the disciplinary action that was recommended would become infructuous, and wouldn’t that embarrass you?
Gen Deepak Kapoor: Again you are referring to the specific nuances of the case and if you have to ask this question the right people are the Armed Forces Tribunal. Because that’s where the case is being discussed.
As far as I am concerned, it will have to be coming out in the court. But we are in the process and it is not the end. So far it is just the beginning. There is a lot more to happen.
Karan Thapar: Gen. Kapoor, the reason why I have explored the various issues that are embedded in this case is because, as you said in the beginning of this interview, this is an embarrassment to the Indian Army.
But looking at it seems to me that far from being nipped in the bud, now that the Court Martial has got underway there will be lawyers involved and the issue will drag on and on. The Armed Forces Tribunal could also give a verdict and stop the court martial or make things complicated. Isn’t it getting worse and worse for the Army?
Gen Deepak Kapoor: Let me put it this way. I think the legal system and the norm desires that everything must come out appropriately. If there is a legal process to be followed, let it be followed. Let me also clarify to you, the damage to the Army’s image, whatever little extent it got done, I look at it as an individual misdemeanour. It got done initially when the media kept harping on it.
I do not think just because the legal system would like to look at it as to the exact truth and how it happened, therefore treat the offender in the fashion it deems fit. It wouldn’t in any way damage the army any more, because it would bring out the true extent of culpability of the individual. It will also show that the legal system both within the Army and within the Country is very fair to each and every person.
Karan Thapar: So what you say is that even though it may be embarrassing, it is important that it be done transparently and it is important that the whole world see that the Army is self correcting, so that at the end of the day the Army’s good name prevails.
Gen Deepak Kapoor: I could not have put it better.
Karan Thapar: So even though there may be awkward moments for you and your successor and the case may drag on, you say that this process is in the best interest of the Army and it redeems itself much better than any institution.
Gen Deepak Kapoor: The Army has always tried to do so, and will continue to strive to do so. Because to me as the Army Chief and to the Army as a whole, the image that the nation holds for the Army matters, because we have to respond to any challenges that come to our nation’s integrity and image.
Karan Thapar: And, in the process, what message would you like to send to your junior officers, not just Generals but Lieutenants, Captains, Majors, who are at the start of their career?
Gen Deepak Kapoor: As I have mentioned earlier, it is an individual misdemeanour which may have happened in the service. It does not take away the basic inherent qualities of the Army and the kind of image it has.
And whenever such misdemeanours happen, it will be the responsibility of the Army’s hierarchy to correct those, to let others know that it will not go unpunished and to treat such people in a fashion which will not only give a message but also an advise to all.
Karan Thapar: What you are saying is don’t judge the Army by one or two officers. The Army as an institution is clean and will always stay so?
Gen Deepak Kapoor: Yes, I say that, and I also say that while the Army comes from the same socio-eco milieu where rest of the country’s organization draw their strength and manpower from, we in the Army try to infuse a set of culture and values which place our people at a slightly higher pedestal, because we know that we are always in a glass house watched by everyone.
But that’s not the only reason, because we like to put in our people the kind of values which are required to defend the territorial integrity of the country.
Karan Thapar: Gen. Kapoor, a pleasure of talking to you.
Gen Deepak Kapoor: Thank you very much.
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