Devil's Advocate: Bardhan fears Mamata as CM

The Left Front has “been too long in power” in West Bengal and this has made it “swollen-headed, arrogant, alienated” from the people, says Communist Party of India chief A B Bardhan. The veteran Marxist leader admitted the Left Front’s defeat in the West Bengal municipal elections was a “debacle” and proved that it had to be “sensitive to the people”. Bardhan told Karan Thapar on Devil's Advocate he gives Trinamool Congress leader Mamata Banerjee credit for defeating the Left Front but believes she would a disaster as Chief Minister of West Bengal.

Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to 'Devil's Advocate'. How does the Left Front respond to the verdict from the municipal elections in West Bengal? That's the key issue I should discuss today with the doyen of the Left, the General Secretary of the Communist Party of India, A B Bardhan.

Mr Bardhan, lets start with Wednesday's civic poll results. How do you respond to the fact that the Trinamool and Congress could end up controlling something like 60 civic bodies on top of sweeping Kolkata and Salt Lake leaving the Left with just 17 out of 81.

A B Bardhan: It has been a very big defeat for the Left, no doubt about it. The people have given their verdict and we have to accept it. But you are talking of the Trinamool and the Congress coming together...the fact is you see, down below they have been together. Those who wanted to defeat the Left, the voters who were anti-Left, they were together you see..down the line, even otherwise. In some places they voted for the Congress and in some places they voted for Trinamool.

Karan Thapar: You have been honest enough to say that this is a very big defeat for the Left. The truth is people were also expecting that this would not be a good result. But has this ended up being worse than your expectations?

A B Bardhan: I expected a bit better. It has been only slightly better, if you see, than the Lok Sabha poll. We have partly improved you see, compared to the Lok Sabha polls last time.

Karan Thapar: You are saying that on the basis of number of votes you have won?

A B Bardhan: Yes, 4 per cent more votes we have got.

Karan Thapar: Except the problem is that in the Lok Sabha elections of 2009, the Congress and the Trinamool were combined and so the anti-Left vote was united. This time they fought against each other, so the anti-Left vote was divided. Are you sure that the improvement in the number of votes isn't just statistical rather than meaningful?

A B Bardhan: No, that's why I said before, the anti-Left vote down below has been united this time also. Generally it happens like this. So those who want to defeat you, somewhere they vote for the Congress all unitedly, somewhere they vote for Trinamool unitedly.

Karan Thapar: But you were hoping for a better result?

A B Bardhan: A better one.

Karan Thapar: One of your principle strongholds that went against you was the North 24 Parganas. It has 21 civic bodies, you had 19. You ended up with just 4?

A B Bardhan: That has been the biggest disappointment as far as I know. I expected a much better result you see in 24 Parganas.

Karan Thapar: The other disappointment is that you had 54 civic bodies in 2005.

A B Bardhan: Yes.

Karan Thapar: You ended up with just 17, which means you've lost 37 and what's even more peculiar is you've lost double, more than double than what you've retained.

A B Bardhan: I would say, you see, without mincing words, without minimising the defeat that it has been a defeat. I would even use the word debacle in some respects. It should have been better. But as I said, you see, within the short time that was available, we improved from the Lok Sabha polls.

Karan Thapar: A marginal improvement only?

A B Bardhan: Yes...no..4 per cent votes.

Karan Thapar: To what extent is this outcome, a verdict on 33 years of Left rule?

A B Bardhan: It is the anti-incumbency factor about which you always say. As far as we are concerned we should have done better. But it seems you see, even if you work for the people, if you are doing development, that's not enough, you have to be with the people you have to be among the people, you have to be sensitive to the people.

Karan Thapar: And you've ceased being sensitive and with the people?

A B Bardhan: I have a feeling, I have a feeling, that our activists lower down, and here I am not naming any particular party whether it is the CPI or the CPI(M) or anybody else, it seems to me that there has been some sort of an alienation between our cadres, our activists and the people. That is to be corrected.

Karan Thapar: To what extent is this outcome also a verdict on Buddhadeb Bhattacharya chief ministership and his leadership of the Left Front?

A B Bardhan: You see I don't want to comment on some individuals or blame some individuals. I don't want to enter the blame game at all. We've fought together, we've lost together.

Karan Thapar: And you take the blame together?

A B Bardhan: And we must take the blame together.

Karan Thapar: But the captain always has to shoulder greater responsibility.

A B Bardhan: That always so, that's always so. But why is he only the captain? Am I not one of the captains? Is not the General Secretary of the CPI(M) one of the captains? That is why I have said you see none of us can escape our responsibilities and we shouldn't.

Karan Thapar: What then beyond the question of the verdict, what then is the message the people of Bengal have given the Left Front?

A B Bardhan: That they have to improve themselves, they have been too long in power. Maybe they got a bit swollen-headed because of that, because of that perhaps they got alienated from the people, because of that perhaps some amount of bureaucratism crept in, all these things are very clear.

Karan Thapar: Do you think that the people of Bengal began to think that the Left Front had become arrogant?

A B Bardhan: Maybe, maybe, maybe. You see, democracy in behaviour, in practice, in your relationship is very important. Democracy is not just a form of government, democracy is also a form of behaviour which you have towards the people.

Karan Thapar: And the Left Front in its behaviour had stopped being democratic?

A B Bardhan: As I said without blaming any particular party, one must say that, that has been so.

Karan Thapar: Was this the arrogance of 33 years of power?

A B Bardhan: As I said you see, being 33 years in power and at all levels may have given certain very bloated ideas.

Karan Thapar: The party or the Left Front as a whole became complacent, they thought they couldn't do any thing wrong and the people taught you a lesson?

A B Bardhan: You can put it that way, you can put it that way.

Karan Thapar: You accept that?

A B Bardhan: Yes but then I tell you, you see, every defeat or success should be analysed properly. And it will be our task now to analyse the defeat.

Karan Thapar: I want to very much analyse the defeat with you. A moment ago you referred to this as the backlash of anti-incumbency. Was it therefore inevitable that this would happen or could it have been avoided?

A B Bardhan: It was not inevitable. Had it been so, why were we elected and re-elected 7 times?

Karan Thapar: So it could have been avoided?

A B Bardhan: It could have been avoided.

Karan Thapar: Whose responsibility is it that it wasn't avoided?

A B Bardhan: The Left Front itself! As I said I don't want to enter into the blame game.

Karan Thapar: The reason?

A B Bardhan: Not because I'm being tactical but because it doesn't pay, you see. You have to analyse your own mistakes also.

Karan Thapar: And that's what I want to do with you. Of the 4 parties that form the Left Front, far and away the singles because it is the CPM, in fact they would have formed the government on their own! They didn't need the others. Do they therefore take the lion's share of responsibility?

A B Bardhan: No, I don't accept your argument that they could have formed the government on their own because they got that number precisely being 0part of the Left Front. Minus the Left Front, they wouldn't have won.

Karan Thapar: Alright, I accept that. But do they still deserve or should they accept the lion's share of responsibility?

A B Bardhan: To each his own, everybody must have his share.

Karan Thapar: And then larger the number of ministers and larger the presence in government, the greater the share?

A B Bardhan: But I am saying you see, it is not that. Because suppose you have a smaller share but your persons also don't behave democratically, it becomes a sought of a practice, a habit.

Karan Thapar: So everyone is equally to be blamed?

A B Bardhan: Everybody is.

Karan Thapar: What about the policies the party or the Left Front followed? You are after all communist. Towards the end of 33 years in power, you began to be identified almost as a party that supports industrialists, a party that stands for unfair land appropriation. Did your policies let you down?

A B Bardhan: You see, the laws of the land are themselves anti-people. You talked about taking occupation of land, acquisition of land by the government. The Land Acquisition Act to which even the Left Front, you see tried to you see, use it, should have been abandoned long back. It's an act from the colonial era.

Karan Thapar: Should you have followed it, in acquiring land in Singur and Nandigram?

A B Bardhan: That's what I am saying, that, that should not have been the practice, that should not have been the practice.

Karan Thapar: The Left Front should have known better but didn't?

A B Bardhan: It should have but we are wiser after the event.

Karan Thapar: And now its too late...

A B Bardhan: Now each one of us are saying that, that Act requires to be scrapped.

Karan Thapar: Except that you shouldn't have followed it and implemented it in the first place?

A B Bardhan: In the first place, we shouldn't have.

Karan Thapar: That was a big mistake?

A B Bardhan: It was a mistake.

Karan Thapar: You said a moment ago that the development policies in a sense backlashed. The people perceived what you intended as industrialization and development as expropriation. Have you become victims of your own agenda of development and industrialization?

A B Bardhan: Let me make it clear, I think development has to take place. You can't remain, you see, in your past. You have to develop.

Karan Thapar: But was it misperceived?

A B Bardhan: As I said you see, you cannot follow the same practice as was followed by the bourgeois government so far. The Left had to, you see, work out a different part. A different part of development.

Karan Thapar: And you didn't?

A B Bardhan: That is what I said, all of us failed in.

Karan Thapar: You followed a bourgeois path of development..

A B Bardhan: Yes..

Karan Thapar: ...which therefore identified you in the eyes of your electorate as a bourgeois party and you ceased to have the communist wing of sincerity?

A B Bardhan: As I am saying the bourgeois path of development has its result and it is being seen elsewhere also. You must have heard about the Posco struggle for instance, people are fighting.

Karan Thapar: That's in another state?

A B Bardhan: It is in another state and by another party but once again following the similar path.

Karan Thapar: Let us come back to Bengal. As one perceives the trend that has established itself in the last two years, the 2008 Panchayat elections, the 2009 Lok Sabha elections then later that year, the assembly bi-polls and now the civic body elections. People say there is a clear trend here, it is going against the Left Front and it looks likely that come the Assembly elections next year, the Left Front will lose. Do you accept that, that is what looks likely?

A B Bardhan: You see, this election, the result of this election will have some impact on that but I can tell you that Assembly election will be a different ball game all together.

Karan Thapar: How much chance do you give yourself in those Assembly elections given the trend we've seen in the last two years?

A B Bardhan: If we correct ourselves fast from what has happened now, if you learn the proper lessons, if you examine what are the causes you see for the defeat and take corrective steps and go to the people you see with policies properly, I think we can do better.

Karan Thapar: If, if, if. But can you take those corrective steps?

A B Bardhan: I am not, you see, an astrologer. But I think you see, people have to fight.

Karan Thapar: Is there a will to fight or is the Left Front now demoralised?

A B Bardhan: No, that is not exactly. I can tell you that the will to fight is very much there.

Karan Thapar: So you are saying that you need new policies? You need to present them differently, you need to establish rapport with the people...three very difficult things and then you need a little bit of luck on top of that?

A B Bardhan: After all it is a difficult struggle. I don't underestimate it at all.

Karan Thapar: But has this process, of devising new policies, presenting them to the people, changing your relationship with the people, has it even begun?

A B Bardhan: It has begun right from the Parliament election result.

Karan Thapar: But it didn't pay off this time?

A B Bardhan: It has..

Karan Thapar: Except for that minor 4 per cent which could be just statistical..

A B Bardhan: No, no, no, you see 4 per cent is very important in these elections and you can see it this way also - in that elections, we were a majority only in 22 seats, you see in Calcutta, in the Parliament elections. 22 has now become 33.

Karan Thapar: Alright, some would say that you are clasping and grasping in strolls but at this moment of anguish, I'll let you clasp with it. Let me put this to you, on top of changing policies, on top of changing attitudes, on top of a bit of luck, do you also need a new leadership to win in to next year?

A B Bardhan: This is the best leadership that can be there according to me.

Karan Thapar: But its a leadership that is identified with failure and defeat?

A B Bardhan: No, no...but these leaders are capable of changing.

Karan Thapar: Aren't you asking for a miracle when you say that?

A B Bardhan: Its not a miracle, people have changed. It has happened all over the world.

Karan Thapar: Do you really believe that Buddhadeb Bhattacharya and his team, not just him alone but the team can change the image and convince Bengal, that they are the future?

A B Bardhan: They can, they can. If they try.

Karan Thapar: Is it likely to happen? Be honest with me.

A B Bardhan: No, no I'm being honest. I think you'll see that no new set of leaders you see can go and impress the people. People want to see that these very leaders, they have been the leaders for all these years, roll back.

Karan Thapar: So nothing will be gained by changing the leaders?

A B Bardhan: Nothing will be gained by that.

Karan Thapar: You have to face the elections with these leaders..

A B Bardhan: with these leaders..

Karan Thapar: Which means that you may have to lose with these leaders?

A B Bardhan: No, we may win with these leaders.

Karan Thapar: In your heart, in your heart, are you resigned to the possibility that you, here from now 35 years of Left Front rule could come to an end?

A B Bardhan: You see, look here, we have always been fighters and we want to fight...

Karan Thapar: To the end...

A B Bardhan: ...to the end. And I can tell you, you see, if you fight to the end and if we are with the people, if you don't start you see, breast beating just because we have lost one election, then we can do much better in these elections.

Karan Thapar: If in the end and I know its an if you don't want to face up to but if in the end you lose, what will defeat mean?

A B Bardhan: Nothing. You see, the Left Front has been defeated a number of times. In an election in a parliamentary democracy, you either win or you lose.

Karan Thapar: Losing power in Bengal won't be the end of the world for the Left Front?

A B Bardhan: Certainly not, certainly not.

Karan Thapar: Will it be a chance to introspect? To recreate the Left in terms of the ideas that you may now have forgotten and left behind?

A B Bardhan: You see, introspection should begin right now. It has been going on, corrective steps are being taken but they have to be expedited. Time is short, I know it.

Karan Thapar: But defeat will give you that chance to do it with greater luxury and with more time. In a sense, therefore, defeat will give you an opportunity to reinvigorate the Left?

A B Bardhan: Every defeat is an opportunity for you to improve and do better and then subsequently win.

Karan Thapar: So there is a silver lining to defeat, if it happens?

A B Bardhan: It is there, it is there. Though as I said, I'm not reconciled to defeat.

Karan Thapar: That I understand.

Mr Bardhan, what do you think of Mamata Banerjee?

A B Bardhan: I think of her, you see as the symbol of anti-Left forces. She combines within her all the anti Left including lies, including exaggerations, including whatever should not be said even, she says it.

Karan Thapar: You see her as a liar?

A B Bardhan: She is, but then she is the anti-Left.

Karan Thapar: Do you see her as an enemy rather than an opponent?

A B Bardhan: She is the opponent and also the enemy of the Left.

Karan Thapar: Do you like her?

A B Bardhan: What is the problem of liking or disliking? Don't, you see, emotionally I don't look at individuals, you see, either amongst myself, our ranks or in the ranks of the enemy.

Karan Thapar: Do you respect?

A B Bardhan: One must respect an enemy, you see, if he has to fight him.

Karan Thapar: How much credit do you give her for the fact that she has four times in two years pushed the Left Front against the wall? Brought it to what you call a debacle?

A B Bardhan: Well if it is a question of giving credit, she deserves the credit of having beaten us. I respect her, as you say, as an enemy.

Karan Thapar: How do you view the prospect of viewing Mamata Banerjee as the future Chief minister of Bengal?

A B Bardhan: I can tell you, it will be a disaster if that is her ambition. She has not been very successful as the Railway Minister and if that is an indication what she will be as a Chief Minister, well you'll have to lump it.

Karan Thapar: She'll be a disastrous Chief Minister of Bengal?

A B Bardhan: I'm quite sure about it.

Karan Thapar: She'll be a tragedy for the people of Bengal?

A B Bardhan: She will be a tragedy for the people of Bengal and I hope the people of Bengal realize it very soon.

Karan Thapar: Mamata Banerjee says that after the Panchayat elections, after the Lok Sabha elections, the Assembly bi-polls and now the civic polls, the Left Front has lost the moral right to rule and she is demanding an early election..

A B Bardhan: You see, our country runs according to our constitution. We have a constitution, that's the basis of our democracy also. As long as we have, you see, a majority in the Assembly, I see no reason why there should be an election just now?

Karan Thapar: Except for the last few times in two years, the population of Bengal has given a decisive verdict against you. Isn't that there way of saying they've had enough, please go!

A B Bardhan: No I think, you see, you are wrong there. If you are talking of the population of West Bengal, only 17% of the people voted this time.

Karan Thapar: But the full population voted in 2009 and your vote share fell and you were left with your worst performance ever?

A B Bardhan: And as I have repeated, we have improved on that. That portion of it.

Karan Thapar: So there is no moral compunction on you?

A B Bardhan: There is no moral compunction on me. There are legal compulsions, there are constitutional compulsions and according to that election is due for a particular time it will be held, not even one day late.

Karan Thapar: Let me put it like this, may be and I accept that the constitutional right is with you, the legal right is with you but everyone knows and in your heart, even you do, even though you may not admit that in public that the trend is against you and chances are you are going to lose. That being a case, how much authority and credibility will you have for the next one year or will you just limp along till the end of the reign?

A B Bardhan: I don't think. We have been, you see, used to opposition. The opposition was there in Nandigram.

Karan Thapar: But now you are in power and you are limping and for the sake of Bengal it may be better to accept the writing on the wall and step aside?

A B Bardhan: No, no. Not at all. I don't think it is the last word of the people of West Bengal. I don't believe it at all. I think, you see, the people of West Bengal who have experienced the Left Front will do better.

Karan Thapar: So until the people of West Bengal finally and forgive the colloquialism, kick you out, you are going to stay there?

A B Bardhan: I think we will stay and we'll stay for good. And if we are defeated, if we are, if we are, I repeat, we'll come back.

Karan Thapar: Alright, there is always hope that's what we all live for.

Mr Bardhan, a pleasure talking to you.

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#West Bengal municipal elections