Bengal govt ignored Lalgarh: A B Bardhan

Does Lalgarh prove that the Left Front government in West Bengal is incompetent in handling insurgency? Karan Thapar asked the General Secretary of the Communist Party of India, A B Bardhan.

Karan Thapar: Mr Bardhan, let me start with a simple question. How do you respond to the view that Lalgarh wasn't taken by the Maoists, it was abandoned by your state government--that Lalgarh isn't a sign of Maoist strength but the incompetence of your state government.

A B Bardhan: Incompetence is a very harsh word to use in this context but I must say an element of neglect and not undertaking the work that should have been done, particularly in an area inhabited by tribal people. There is a need for paying special attention to the tribal people, development and all that.

Karan Thapar:So you accept that your government in Bengal is guilty of neglect?

A B Bardhan: They had undertaken the agrarian reforms. Seventy five per cent of the tribal people are beneficiaries of the agrarian reform but beyond that you have to do something more.

Karan Thapar:And they didn't do it?

A B Bardhan: They neglected it. Yes, I will say so.

Karan Thapar:Were you advising them to do something more? Did they in other words failed to listen to your advice?

A B Bardhan: At that time, there was no question of my giving advice. In fact, the government was being run as a one-party government more or less.

Karan Thapar:In other words, the arrogance of the CPM meant that they felt that they didn't need the advice of their allies?

A B Bardhan: I leave the words to you; I won't use these harsh words. After all we are working in the same government and we would like to be at peace with each other, at the same time advise each other.

Karan Thapar:You don't want to use the word arrogance, nonetheless you want to be consulted. And because you want to live in peace with each other you didn't want to make an issue of it.

A B Bardhan: I am not making an issue of it. Because now we are all settled with it.

Karan Thapar: But the government is guilty of neglect?

A B Bardhan: It was, in a sense.

Karan Thapar:And that neglect is because the CPM thought it knew how to handle the situation and it didn't look to others for advice?

A B Bardhan: I don't know if we were capable of giving advice but if they had consulted all the partners of the Left Front, I think they would have done better.

Karan Thapar:You weren't consulted at all?

A B Bardhan: No, I don't think we were consulted. That is one of the failings of the Left government in West Bengal, if I may say so. The amount of consultation that ought to be there is not there.

Karan Thapar:So, when at your national executive fairly recently at Kolkata, you said that Left leaders should shed their arrogance, you actually had the leaders of the CPM in mind?

A B Bardhan: Including my leaders also. Some of my leaders are also in positions of authority. In West Bengal and Kerala, the goverments are the local bodies, anybody who comes to power tends to become a bit arrogant.

Karan Thapar:So not only the CPI-M has failed to consult its allies but also members of the allies, who are in power in Bengal, have failed to keep in touch with their own parties?

A B Bardhan: I think so--failed to keep in touch with the people, with the masses.

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Karan Thapar:So Lalgarh is actually a result of a government not just being neglectful, a government being arrogant and not listening to its own party and worst of all a government failing to listen to its own people?

A B Bardhan: I leave all those remarks to you. But I do feel that when you neglect particularly in the tribal areas, you alienate the tribal people. Across the border is Jharkhand and the whole area is a forest area and the Maoists can just walk in.

Karan Thapar:This is very important: neglect by the government led to alienation of the tribals, you accept that?

A B Bardhan: Anywhere else, not only the tribals.

Karan Thapar:Absolutely, but the government is responsible for alienating the tribals?

A B Bardhan: For not undertaking the real work of development which they should have.

Karan Thapar:Thus alienating them?

A B Bardhan: Yes.

Karan Thapar:And that alienation, in a sense, pushed them into the hands of the Maoists who are just across the border in Jharkhand?

A B Bardhan: The Maoists found a fertile soil.

Karan Thapar:And the fertile soil was created by the Left Front government?

A B Bardhan: It is true. Facts must be admitted. The Left government is responsible up to a certain level, having given them land which they own. Seventy five per cent are beneficiaries. You have to move ahead.

Karan Thapar:And they didn't move ahead?

A B Bardhan: They didn't move ahead.

Karan Thapar:They should have moved ahead years and years ago?

A B Bardhan: Particularly, it has been aggravated during the last 10 years.

Karan Thapar:The last 10 years is a very long time. A government being neglectful of its own people for 10 years is a pretty difficult thing to imagine.

A B Bardhan: Things have added to it. For instance the rise of Trinamool Congress. The nexus between the Trinamool Congress and the Maoists. The mutual help which they were rendering to each other, united in their common hatred towards the Left.

Karan Thapar:Except, in a democracy you expect your opponents to score points of your weaknesses and if the Trinamool Congress scores points of your weakness, then it's your fault.

A B Bardhan: I admit that.

Karan Thapar:So even the rise of the Trinamool Congress is the result of the failures of the Left Front government?

A B Bardhan: If the Left Front government was not failing, in some respects, what scope would the Trinamool Congress have? None. Mamata Banerjee or the Trinamool Congress leadership can take advantage of only our weaknesses.

Karan Thapar:And she did?

A B Bardhan: She did.

Karan Thapar:She was threatening to take advantage of your weakness for a couple of years, you had advance notice?

A B Bardhan: You must also see the unscrupulousness of the whole thing in that she is willing to join hands with the Maoists--the Maoists were willing to help her.

Karan Thapar:I accept that. I won't quarrel about what you call her unscrupulousness, but let's stick to the Left Front government. Why did you let her take advantage of your weaknesses if though you knew of it?

A B Bardhan: Up to a certain point. For instance, in Lalgarh itself, they sealed themselves off, particularly after the incidence of bomb blast when the convoy of Chief Minister was going.

Karan Thapar:And even after that the government did nothing.

A B Bardhan: (It) should have done.

Karan Thapar:You were also neglectful of pure security?

A B Bardhan: As I look back, I do think that it would have been nipped in the bud if action had been taken seven months before.

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Karan Thapar:It could have been nipped in the bud seven months before? So they security aspect was neglected for seven whole months?

A B Bardhan: Whose security?

Karan Thapar:The security of the tribals who were being overtaken and dominated by the Maoists.

A B Bardhan: Because of the Maoists, the police ran away from there

Karan Thapar:In fact, it was even worse when the PCPA demanded that a police post be shut down, not once but on two separate occasions, the Left Front government complied with the deadlines given by the PCPA. Which is why I say the Maoists didn't take over, you abandoned it.

A B Bardhan: In a sense, that is why I am today saying it is not just a matter of police action. Police action could not be avoided at the present moment because they were taking recourse to all sorts of violence against political activists.

Karan Thapar:What is it then a question of?

A B Bardhan: It is also of going there and giving relief to the people. For six months, the entire area is isolated. Administration is not there, healthcare is not there, food is not available. Somebody has to go.

Karan Thapar:You have given me two very good explanations why Lalgarh happened. One, failure to push through with development for 10 years at a time, thus alienating the tribals, pushing them into the hands of the Maoists.

Two, failure to take security action to nip in the bud the problem when it began as long ago as seven months ago? On both counts, the government actually failed?

A B Bardhan: Are you interested in outlining all the failures of the government?

Karan Thapar:No, I am interested in your very acceptance of the failures. There is no defensiveness on your part?

A B Bardhan: There ought to be some self-criticism. We should understand that why did it happen in Lalgarh?

Karan Thapar:Both the failures you have talked about, development as well as the security, reflect absence of political will. If you had the will, you would have done the development and secured the place?

A B Bardhan: We have come to a position now where you require help from the Centre in order to face the situation, which the West Bengal police ought to have faced before.

Karan Thapar:When you agree with me that both the failures reflect absence of political will, are we not actually saying that the leadership of the Left Front government failed you?

A B Bardhan: Are we out to pillorying someone?

Karan Thapar:I don't want to pillory any one, but by accepting that leadership failed, you are actually pinpointing where the failure was?

A B Bardhan: So therefore, a solution has to be found now.

Karan Thapar:With the leadership?

A B Bardhan: With the same leadership, you don't change leadership when you have to face a situation.

Karan Thapar:But when you know that the leadership has brought the war on and fought it badly, then you do say it to yourself that when the war is over, the leadership needs to be changed.

A B Bardhan: I am not a position to change leadership.

Karan Thapar:You are the junior partner?

A B Bardhan: Yes.

Karan Thapar:Were you to be in a position to give advice, to a senior partner, would you advice a change in leadership?

A B Bardhan: No, I don't. It's up to them. But that is not the issue. A change in the direction of work, you can say that. Whether one goes and other one comes does not make any difference. The party is there. The party is a collective team.

Karan Thapar:I have heard two things from you. One, a change in the direction of work that's the most important thing. Is that right?

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A B Bardhan: Yes.

Karan Thapar:Two, you said whether one goes and another comes, is not a very important thing. That doesn't sound like a very passionate defence of the general in-charge at the moment

A B Bardhan: What I am saying is that I am not concerned with leadership at the moment. I am concerned about the people of Lalgarh. There is a war going on with the tribals, who are our own people.

Karan Thapar:That makes it worse for you as a Communist party because you represent the people?

A B Bardhan: That's exactly what I am saying. So this alienation from the people is something that has to be cured.

Karan Thapar:It would be difficult for you to open admit in this interview that you want a change in leadership although you have indicated no great passionate support for the leadership.

Do you think questions need to be asked of the leadership about the conduct of this whole business, not just what has happened now in Lalgarh but the build up to it, in terms of security, and then the bigger build up to it, in terms of neglect and development?

A B Bardhan: This questions will certainly have to answered by the leadership. There has to be a post mortem and there has to be a cure.

Supposing even if the police action is successful in driving the Maoists out, then what? How do you ensure that they don't come back? How do you ensure that you have won over the people?

Karan Thapar:So there has to be a post mortem?

A B Bardhan: And also what steps to be taken. After the operation, people should not be alienated further. It should be a steady and patient winning back of the people of Lalgarh.

Karan Thapar:You said that not only steps have to be taken, you said there has to be a cure. Can you completely rule out that the cure won't include a change in leadership?

A B Bardhan: I am not interested in the change of leadership. Nor can I bring it about nor am I interested in it. And I don't think that it will be a solution for the whole problem. The policy has to change.

For seven months now, Lalgarh has not be getting medical help, no education is going on, no food is going there. All of this has to be done. All the people there must get relief as the police operation carry on.

Karan Thapar:You are talking about a very thorough post mortem, not just a whitewash?

A B Bardhan: No. White wash won't do because more Lalgarhs may come about.

Karan Thapar:And the CPI will ask questions?

A B Bardhan: Why should we not, we are partners. We have the right to ask questions.

Karan Thapar:Your voice will be therefore heard loud and clear?

A B Bardhan: It is being heard. That is why a meeting of the core committee (of the Left Front) has been called in and the CPI has a very senior person in that core committee. Who will ask questions.

Karan Thapar:When it comes to the post mortem, the CPI won't behave like a junior partner, you will be fearless?

A B Bardhan: It doesn't matter because the person in the core committee is not a junior man.

Karan Thapar:The police force in Bengal has been neglected and as a result of which today when there is an insurgency, you simply don't have the capacity to fight it.

Can you accept that progressively over the decades, and you have been in power for over 30 years, the Left Front government has not done enough to boost, build and create an effective police force?

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A B Bardhan: It is so all over the country in the first place. In the second place, the whole administration has not been relying on the police in order to carry out its duties. It is not a police state. In fact, in West Bengal, the police per one lakh population is the least.

Karan Thapar:Absolutely, I am so glad you have picked that up. The police per population ration of Bengal is 92 per cent compared to a national ratio of 125 per cent.

What's even worse is that in the last eight years, it has diminished by further 10 per cent , it used to be 100 per one lakh, it is just 92 per cent. How then when you face an insurgency can you tackle it when you don't have the police force?

A B Bardhan: I think that should be looked into. It is not only the question of the personnel, it also the question of equipment that they have.

Karan Thapar:Are you aware of the fact that CAG reports show that between the years 2000 and 2005, at least on two occasions, 90 per cent of the funds given by the Centre for modernisation of equipments were unspent by your government?

A B Bardhan: These details I don't know but if it is so, it is bad.

Karan Thapar: These are CAG facts I am quoting to you.

A B Bardhan: Yes, it may be.

Karan Thapar:On the personnel front, are you aware that you have a 28 per cent deficiency of personnel in the civil police, 17 per cent deficiency of personnel in the armed police, and in the important leadership ranks of the armed police, the deficiency is in an astonishing 35 or 37 per cent?

A B Bardhan: You are right. West Bengal ratio of the police compared to the population is the least and yet Mamata Banerjee and the Maoists go on talking about police state and police atrocities.

Karan Thapar:Far from police state, you don't have a competent police force, under manned, under equipped, probably under moral.

A B Bardhan: I don't know about the moral but I do think that it is undermanned and under equipped.

Karan Thapar:This is neglect by the government, isn't it?

A B Bardhan: It should be. The police force must be built up, any administration a communist one or anybody else must have the police force. It is one of the functions of a state.

Karan Thapar:Once again, the CPM leadership need to be asked questions?

A B Bardhan: Forget about the leadership. I am talking about the state.

Karan Thapar:Here is a state which is withering away in the wrong sense of the term. Naxalism began in Bengal in 1967; your party and your allies have been power since 1977 and you even today don't have a police force that is trained for countering insurgency.

A B Bardhan: Naxalism is not an issue there. Naxalism has been fought politically and successfully. In West Bengal, it is Maoism, which has degenerated to the point of extortionism.

Karan Thapar:You have no anti-insurgency force? Now you are rapidly sending people but it is little to late. It should have happened 10 years earlier.

A B Bardhan: Yes.

Karan Thapar:In contrast, there is Manik Sarkar in Agartala, a smaller state, a poorer state facing a much more virulent insurgency. He has handled it decisively.

A B Bardhan: I must appreciate it.

Karan Thapar:In contrast, the West Bengal government looks pretty incompetent doesn't it?

A B Bardhan: It is not a question of the police only, the whole question is of the administration in general.

Karan Thapar:And that is lacking in Kolkata but it isn't in Agartala? The will to fight is in Agartala but was somehow missing in Kolkata?

A B Bardhan: As you put it.

Karan Thapar:You don't disagree

A B Bardhan: It is not a question of my agreeing, it's a question of fact.

A B Bardhan: Mr Bardhan, a pleasure speaking to you.