Click to play videoFormer prime minister of Pakistan Benazir Bhutto says she holds President General Pervez Musharraf responsible for failing to clamp down on terror groups operating from Pakistan.
Speaking to CNN-IBN's Karan Thapar on Devil’s Advocate, she promised not to allow Pakistan's territory to be used to spread terror, if re-elected.
Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil's Advocate. It's a special interview with former prime minister of Pakistan, Benazir Bhutto. Earlier this month, the Charter of Democracy that she had signed with her arch-rival Nawaz Sharif came into effect. I shall talk to Ms Bhutto about what the charter means for relations with India and Kashmir disputes and what the charter means for Pakistan and Ms Bhutto herself and for the Restoration of Democracy.
Ms Bhutto, you signed the Charter of Democracy with Nawaz Sharif and it began and took effect from July 2 this year. Yet for 17 years, Nawaz Sharif was your principal political rival. In fact, all the cases that you've faced were instituted against you by him or his government. Today, do you trust Nawaz Sharif or is it simply a matter of mutual political convenience?
Benazir Bhutto: Firstly, Mr Nawaz Sharif and I have been in politics for a long time. And both in Opposition and in Government, we gained experience, which we believe can help us in drawing a common vision for the future of Pakistan on building institutions, giving justice and having peace in the region. Secondly, the cases that were instituted against me were instituted by the military establishment, which used different political personalities.
Karan Thapar: Forgive me...
Benazir Bhutto: Let me finish, you asked me a question, I want to answer the question. Secondly, the cases were instituted by the military establishment
Karan Thapar: Nawaz Sharif was the prime minister.
Benazir Bhutto: It was established by the military establishment, which had formed a front organisation, known as National Accountability Bureau after overthrowing my government in 1996 under President Farooq Leghari and third Mr Nawaz Sharif and I believe that the charter...
Karan Thapar: Ms Bhutto, let me remind you what you said of Nawaz Sharif.
Benazir Bhutto:You asked me three questions, I should then be asked just one question because it seems to me...
Karan Thapar: Well, I asked you only one question. Do you trust the man, do you trust him?
Benazir Bhutto: Of course, I trust his commitment to a common future as we have signed in the Charter of Democracy.
Karan Thapar: Can I quote to you what you said to BBC programme Hard Talk Pakistan? Nawaz Sharif was more brutal than Gen Musharraf is and in my party from Khyber to Karachi, people think Musharraf is a better dictator than Nawaz Sharif and then you added, what Nawaz Sharif did when he used to work for the generals was to trample democracy. It is a bitter part of our tragic history.
Benazir Bhutto: Yes, that's true. We've a very tragic history where the military establishment has intervened time and again and each time that they have intervened...
Karan Thapar: But I'm talking about Nawaz Sharif and you are talking of the military establishment.
Benazir Bhutto: Yes, because you don't seem to understand the point I'm trying to make, because you don't let me complete my sentence.
Karan Thapar: Which is?
Benazir Bhutto: The military establishment has played havoc with Pakistan's destiny by repeatedly intervening through different front people. Therefore, when Gen Musharraf first came, there was a sigh of relief on behalf of the people before he embarked on repeating the mistakes of the military establishments.
Karan Thapar: Ms Bhutto, on May 17, two days after the Charter of Democracy was signed and then he repeated it again on 18th, Nawaz Sharif refused to express regret for any of the cases brought against you and he refused to say that they were fabricated. And yet, he is the man with whom today you've alliance.
Benazir Bhutto: You see. I think you are misinformed. There is a talk that Mr Nawaz Sharif gave in front of all the parties of the Alliance for Democracy. And he talked of the politically-motivated cases, it's available in the political statement that was issued by the ARD following Mr Nawaz Sharif's talks.
Karan Thapar: Nawaz Sharif is the man who publicly accused you and your husband of buying Rockword Estate. It was an allegation that you at that time felt was complete malice and nonsense. Yet it has affected your standing world over. Have you forgiven him for all that he has done?
Benazir Bhutto: I've already answered your question. I've told you that in Pakistan there are two forces, the military establishment and the democratic forces. The military establishment has used and propped up different leaders from time and time to oppose democracy.
Karan Thapar: So, he was a puppet in the military establishment when he established these cases against you, yet today you are aligned with him.
Benazir Bhutto: As I mentioned, the cases were established in 1996 under President Farooq Leghari, who was first supported by the establishment to overthrow my government before Mr Nawaz Sharif came.
Karan Thapar: You are determined to whitewash Nawaz Sharif today and forget all that you've said about him.
Benazir Bhutto: That would be incorrect. I stand by what I've said. But I'd like you also to understand the intricate politics of Pakistan, which has a military establishment, which has formed a National Accountability Bureau as a front organisation against me to divert attention from the institutionalised policies.
Karan Thapar: But he was the prime minister. He has never disowned the National Accountability Bureau. In fact, he has gone on record to the Daily Times of Pakistan to say that he can't even claim the cases were fabricated because Saifur Rahman would end up going to jail. He is more concerned about Saifur Rahman than his new alliance, Benazir Bhutto.
Benazir Bhutto: I've not seen the statement that you refer to.
Karan Thapar: The Daily Times of Pakistan, May 17, Gulf News, May 16.
Benazir Bhutto: I know, I hear you. But I've not seen that statement. I've heard Mr Nawaz Sharif publicly speak about the need to withdraw the politically-motivated cases that have been instituted against the political Opposition more recently in the ARD meeting of which a statement has been issued.
Karan Thapar: Okay, let me quote to you senior Pakistani journalist Hamid Mir. Writing in the 'Jung' on March 27 just four months ago. he said Nawaz Sharif had accepted money from Osama bin Laden to overthrow your government of '89-90. And Daily Times of Pakistan says this was an allegation that you yourself made many times in the past. Today, for reasons of political expediency, have you forgiven and forgotten everything that Nawaz Sharif has done?
Benazir Bhutto: I do not believe in the politics of political expediency. And to update you on the politics of Pakistan, Nawaz Sharif broke from the military establishment in October 1999. And what you are quoting to me is from before October 1999.
Karan Thapar: Absolutely. So October 1999 is the watershed, everything that has happened before that has changed and everything that has happened after that is different?
Benazir Bhutto: No, I'm sorry. This is your wording, not my wording.
Karan Thapar: Let me give you a new reason why people are skeptical of your new relationship with Nawaz Sharif. Ministers of the Musharraf government repeatedly say that both you and Nawaz Sharif are in direct touch with the President of Pakistan to sort out private deals for yourselves. And in your case specifically, Pakistani Parliamentary Affairs Minister Sher Afghan Niazi says that you've had 12 direct conversations with the President.
Benazir Bhutto: These are fake stories spread by the ministers. And I'm very surprised that a senior journalist such as yourself would raise such a question without asking the minister for evidence for what he says. And I want you to know that my husband was held for eight years in prison in solitary confinement. And I never reached an agreement or a deal with Musharraf. Because my concerns have always been for democracy, Constitution and rights of the people of Pakistan. I've suffered for them and so have my young children and so have my party people and so have the people of Pakistan.
Karan Thapar: I get what you are saying. Let's then look into the future, you and Mr Nawaz Sharif.
Benazir Bhutto: And we've fought for principles that my father had given his life for. I believe Pakistan's future is democracy and I believe we must fight for democracy because that is the destiny of the people of Pakistan. That is why Pakistan was formed and that is why the people of Pakistan are struggling for, to put the past behind us. Because we don't want to be chained to an unsavoury past.
Karan Thapar: Ms Bhutto, permit me, then let's look at the future. You and Nawaz Sharif have given a deadline to the President and the Prime Minister of Pakistan to resign.
Benazir Bhutto: I want you to know, before you come to your next question that never have Hammed Nasir Chatta or Mia Manzur Battu ever said they acted on my behalf.
Karan Thapar: It has touched a raw nerve with you, hasn't it?
Benazir Bhutto: No, but I want to set the record right. You see, I don't let interviewers to just put questions to me.
Karan Thapar: You should be setting the record right with the Pakistani press. The Pakistani press have reported these two gentlemen claimed to be brokering a deal.
Benazir Bhutto: I've not seen that in Pakistani press. We've a large and vibrant Pakistani press. But I know Hammed Nasir Chatta and I know Mia Manzur Battu. They are both people who are important political personalities.
Karan Thapar: And they have made the allegations. The 'Daily Times' of Pakistan...
Benazir Bhutto: No, they have not. They would not make such a claim. So what? Newspapers often print things that are wrong.
Karan Thapar: So, you are saying 'Daily Times' of Pakistan is wrong.
Benazir Bhutto: I am saying Battu and Chatta have never said something like that.
Karan Thapar: All right. Let's move beyond Chatta and Battu. Let's not get obsessed with them.
Benazir Bhutto: Let's clear the record.
Karan Thapar: You've cleared the record.
Benazir Bhutto: I am glad you think that I've. But I must think so too. Both Battu and Chatta do believe that Gen Musharaff's persecution of the PPP is wrong.
Karan Thapar: Let's now stop at that and continue.
Benazir Bhutto: I'm letting you continue, but you should also know...
Karan Thapar: We are wasting time Ms Bhutto.
Benazir Bhutto: You are wasting time, because you don't let a person answer.
Karan Thapar: Both you and Mr Nawaz Sharif have given a deadline to the President of Pakistan and the Prime Minister of Pakistan to resign by July 31. There are roughly two- and-a-half weeks left. Yet, neither of them looks they will pay any heed or advice to you. So what are you going to do?
Benazir Bhutto: The ARD parties gave a warning to Gen Musharraf and Shaukat Aziz to resign over the steel-mills scandal.
Karan Thapar: And they are ignoring it.
Benazir Bhutto: The Supreme Court of Pakistan has noted that there were omissions and commissions in the privatisations.
Karan Thapar: But that's history. What will you do on the 31st when they will ignore your demand.
Benazir Bhutto: And we feel in answering your question that it's very important for the nation to know about the loot and plunder that is taking place, which is why we intend to move a no-confidence vote, for which purpose a committee has be set up. And if the resignations do not come in by July 31, a no-confidence move will be considered by the Alliance for the Restoration of Democracy.
Karan Thapar: All right. Let me put this to you. Gen Musharraf, meanwhile, has suggested that he is likely to use the present existing Assembly before his term expires in November to get himself re-elected for a second time. That's something you were totally against. You said it would be immoral, you said it would be political fraud, but there's nothing you can do to stop it.
Benazir Bhutto: I do believe that the present assemblies were elected for five years and legally Gen Musharraf...
Karan Thapar: The Parliamentary Affairs Minister disagrees. He says the present assembly has the mandate to re-elect Gen Musharraf if it so chooses to do.
Benazir Bhutto: Right. People can give their views. But a five-year Assembly cannot elect a person for 10 years because that will be double its mandate. A mandate is for five years.
Karan Thapar: But the point is, don't you see what's happening? Gen Musharraf is trying to set the stage in such a manner that he not only gets re-elected, but continues his role as Army Chief as well. You don't want that, but there's nothing you or Nawaz Sharif could do to stop that.
Benazir Bhutto: You see, we've have a military dictatorship. So as long as Gen Musharraf exploits the armed forces of Pakistan and exploits the international war against terrorism, he can try to sustain his dictatorship...
Karan Thapar: And get away with anything.
Benazir Bhutto: No, but that doesn't mean the Pakistan People's Party or the people of Pakistan have to accept his dictatorship.
Karan Thapar: Except for your Charter of Democracy and your rhetoric, it doesn't give you any strength because the cards are in Musharaff's hands. You see if you want to play politics in Pakistan while he is in power, you either play it on his terms or you don't play it at all. That's the problem you face.
Benazir Bhutto: I think you sound a little bit like the British Empire and what the Indian Congress had to face when fighting it. Because at that time, the Congress was told, you play by the rules but you can't change the rules.
Karan Thapar: Absolutely. So can you get Musharraf to change the rules? That's the question I am driving at.
Benazir Bhutto: So, people have to do what's right. People have to fight for what they believe in. And in the blink of an eye, the situation can change. The reality was that Hitler's troops were at the gate of Stalingrade, but Hitler was defeated.
Karan Thapar: Ms Bhutto that's history.
Benazir Bhutto: Oh, you don't like history?
Karan Thapar: If you can go back to Pakistan and start a movement that gains momentum and threatens the general, which you can, but have you the courage to do it?
Benazir Bhutto: Yes, I can repeat history and yes, I do have the courage to do it.
Karan Thapar: You could end up in jail. Are you prepared for that?
Benazir Bhutto: What is jail? Lot of people have gone to jail.
Karan Thapar: What would happen to your children, to your husband, to your mother, all of whom are dependant on you? Are you prepared to set them aside?
Benazir Bhutto: My husband is not dependant on me.
Karan Thapar: They need your moral support. Your children need your moral support.
Benazir Bhutto: Of course, they need my moral support. But my husband and my family appreciate that I have a commitment to the people of Pakistan. A commitment, which they share. They have stood by me in this very dark decade when I had faced the military establishment.
Karan Thapar: So, Benazir Bhutto is prepared to go to jail if need be.
Benazir Bhutto: Of course.
Karan Thapar: In which case, let me ask you bluntly, when are you planning to go back?
Benazir Bhutto: I plan to go back to help my people with the election campaign of 2007.
Karan Thapar: When exactly?
Benazir Bhutto: I will let you through my press release from my media office in Islamabad.
Karan Thapar: Jehangir Badar, the Secretary-General of your party, has publicly said in Pakistan that Benazir Bhutto will be back before June 2007 so that she celebrates the next birthday in her country. Can you confirm that?
Benazir Bhutto: You may ask Jehangir Badar about his statement.
Karan Thapar: But he is your Secretary-General.
Benazir Bhutto: I am not aware of that statement that he has made.
Karan Thapar: It was in the Pakistani papers.
Benazir Bhutto: Many things come out in the papers, which are not true.
Karan Thapar: So you are disowning either the papers or the Secretary-General? Or both?
Benazir Bhutto: I’m doing neither, because I have not seen it and I am not going to take your word for something I haven’t seen.
Karan Thapar: But you’re giving me the statement that you will be back before the elections?
Benazir Bhutto: Yes, and my media office will announce the date.
Karan Thapar: Can I interrupt you? Does that mean a definite yes?
Benazir Bhutto: Yes.
Karan Thapar: The reason I ask is, because many times in the last three years, you have given similar commitments and you haven’t returned and people wonder does she intend to really go back?
Benazir Bhutto: Well, I disagree with you. And I challenge you to produce one statement from my media office saying that I will go back.
Karan Thapar: I will give you statements given in interviews to Indian Television channels, Sab TV, statements given to Hard Talk Pakistan, when you said that you would go back for elections which were due at that time and you did not go back.
Benazir Bhutto: Oh, excuse me. You’re talking about 2002. I did plan to go back in 2002. I filed my nomination papers.
Karan Thapar: But you never went back.
Benazir Bhutto: I did not go back, because I was illegally disqualified and there were cogent reasons which I would like to share with the audience. The cogent reasons were that the military dictatorship was claiming that if my party won a majority, it would not stand in the way.
Karan Thapar: They’ll make the same claim again and they’ll let you down again. Have you got the courage to defy them? That’s what I’m asking.
Benazir Bhutto: Just one minute. I’ll come to your second question. And, therefore, to call their bluff knowing that I could not be elected since they had illegally disqualified me, I did not go back in 2002.
Karan Thapar: That’s a very elaborate explanation. Who called who’s bluff is the question. Did Gen Musharraf call your bluff because at the end of the day, he got what he wanted. You remained in exile outside your country, 5,000 miles away.
Benazir Bhutto: Well, you can put it that way. But I called his bluff because he was forced to postpone the Parliamentary Session and factionalise my party and put to an end to his false claim that he was ready to restore democracy.
Karan Thapar: Let's come to 2007. You’re saying you will definitely go back?
Benazir Bhutto: Yes.
Karan Thapar: That is a 100 per cent commitment?
Benazir Bhutto: Yes.
Karan Thapar: Even if the elections happen in Pakistan after Gen Musharraf has got himself re-elected and even if they happen when Gen Musharraf continues as Army Chief? Even in those circumstances, you will still go back?
Benazir Bhutto: Excuse me. I am not going to go into whether he is re-elected, because he cannot be legally re-elected.
Karan Thapar: But that’s a very likely possibility that he will be, regardless of the legality.
Benazir Bhutto: I will not answer the question.
Karan Thapar: Is that your escape clause?
Benazir Bhutto: No. But I will answer the question as far as it pertains to my return. I will return. But for you to say that ‘Oh he is going to be elected as President or you’re going to quote him or his ministers to say this…
Karan Thapar: He says it. I don’t. His ministers say this.
Benazir Bhutto: … I don’t want to be drawn into that. I consider that illegal.
Karan Thapar: I’m simply testing one thing. Will you go back for any type of election that happens or will you go back only for an election that suits you?
Benazir Bhutto: I have said I will go back for the elections of 2007. And in case you’re hard of hearing, I never said an election that suits me ever in my life.
Karan Thapar: So you will go back even if Gen Musharraf has already been re-elected and these new elections are happening under him?
Benazir Bhutto: As I said to you, I do not believe that he is legally entitled to be re-elected. But I say it again, in case you didn’t hear it.
Karan Thapar: The critical question Ms Bhutto is this. In 1986, when you were 20 years younger, you went back and there’s no doubt about that you changed the character and history of Pakistan. You really believe you can work the miracle twice?
Benazir Bhutto: Yes.
Karan Thapar: You’re 20 years older. You’ve done two terms as Prime Minister and many people are disillusioned with your performance in office. And most important of all, Gen Musharraf is not Gen Zia. The odds this time are stacked against you.
Benazir Bhutto: Well, I think I have far more popular support now than I did in the past. I believe that people…
Karan Thapar: How do you prove that?
Benazir Bhutto: Well, in the last general elections, my party got the largest number of votes and just recently Gen Musharraf rigged the elections in Azad Kashmir because my party was going to sweep the elections. He hasn’t been able to hold one election, which is not rigged.
Karan Thapar: So, are you really telling me that from 5,000 miles away, you can sense that the people of Pakistan want to vote back to power the PPP. Do you get that feeling? Are you really saying it?
Benazir Bhutto: Well, I do get that feeling and I’m not 5,000 miles away. I’m there in the assemblies, I’m there in the local councils, I’m there in the villages, I’m there everywhere through the PPP worker, who is my personal representative and my personal envoy.
Karan Thapar: So, Benazir Bhutto believes that whenever the elections are held, she will be back in office as Prime Minister?
Benazir Bhutto: Either as Prime Minister or President, I hope. But if the people of Pakistan so wish, and if the Opposition so wishes. Most certainly.
Karan Thapar: But what is your gut instinct? Do you believe that in fact events are moving in your direction? That you will be Prime Minister in 2007 after the elections if they are held?
Benazir Bhutto: I believe that I have much greater support now. People in other political parties have also worked with me, respect the fact that I am committed and my party is committed to a vision of Pakistan.
Karan Thapar: And there is no question of a side deal with Gen Musharraf to ease you out of the problem of having to face up to jail.
Benazir Bhutto: If there was a side deal, it would have occurred before my husband lost the best years of his life.
Karan Thapar: It could still occur now.
Benazir Bhutto: Why would it occur?
Karan Thapar: Because, suddenly you sense some opportunity. Suddenly, you believe at 50 you don’t want to go to jail again.
Benazir Bhutto: I disagree with you. That you may feel at 50. But I don’t.
Karan Thapar: If you go back and end up in jail?
Benazir Bhutto: And I feel that somebody who has suffered so much and paid such a high price for what they believe in, must continue the struggle to final victory and I will do so till my last breath.
Karan Thapar: Then let me put it like this. Does the fire burn as strongly in Benazir Bhutto today in 2006 as it did in 1986?
Benazir Bhutto: My commitment to the people of Pakistan…
Karan Thapar: What about the fire?
Benazir Bhutto: I don’t know what fire you are talking about.
Karan Thapar: Because it was the determination to bring change that took you back and took you into the teeth of the Zia dictatorship. Do you have that strength?
Benazir Bhutto: I call that commitment. And yes, I have the strength.
Karan Thapar: And you’re prepared for jail? So be it.
Benazir Bhutto: What is jail? I have been in jail for nearly six years. My husband has been jail for 11-and-a-half years. My whole family has spent nearly 30 years in jail. You talk about jail as if it is the end of the world. Obviously, you have never been in jail. Otherwise, you wouldn’t ask me such a silly question.
Karan Thapar: Ms Bhutto, Clause 17 of the Charter of Democracy that came into effect on July 2 says that 'peaceful relations with India will be pursued without prejudice to outstanding disputes'. How does that differ from Gen Musharraf's India policy?
Benazir Bhutto: Well, Gen Musharraf at the moment has been unable to control the militancy and, unfortunately, when we had the earthquake in Azad Kashmir, we saw that the militant groups totally resurfaced.
Karan Thapar: You would be better at it?
Benazir Bhutto: I believe so. I believe that the insurgency was much better controlled during the time of democratic governance.
Karan Thapar: The insurgency began in fact in 1990, when you were in power yourself.
Benazir Bhutto: It began actually in 1988, when I was in power, and in 1990, I was overthrown.
Karan Thapar: Let me ask you about what many Indians remember. Millions remember the young Prime Minister in her 30s who would shout on television azadi, azadi, azadi. Is that now a thing of the past?
Benazir Bhutto: I do believe in freedom and the right of self-determination. And I do believe that the people of Kashmir must determine their own future. However at the same time, I believe that relations with India cannot be kept hostage to the Kashmir dispute and if there is a lack of progress on agenda item number one, which is Kashmir, it doesn’t mean that there should be lack of progress on agenda item number two, which is Indo-Pak relations.
Karan Thapar: This is very interesting. I noticed that in fact the manner and description of Kashmir in the Charter of Democracy does not use the critical phrase so fondly used by Gen Musharraf, 'the core issue'. Is that deliberate or is that an oversight?
Benazir Bhutto: Well, Kashmir is obviously a core issue for every single Pakistani. But the issue is how to deal with it. There are nations who have conflicts, but that doesn’t mean that their relations go down the drain. For example, India and China have a conflict, but Indian and Chinese relations still remain good. So we have got to agree that we have got a dispute in Kashmir. But that must not prevent us from developing Indo-Pak relations and obviously (it cannot happen) unless we can control militancy and prevent militants holding our relations hostage.
Karan Thapar: I’ll come to militancy in a moment's time. But you have just indicated something and I am getting you to underline it. That when you use the word 'the core issue', though I repeat again it’s not in your Charter of Democracy. You mean something very different to what Gen Musharraf does?
Benazir Bhutto: That’s right.
Karan Thapar: You’re saying we are not going to get hung up on Kashmir, we are not going to let it become an obstacle.
Benazir Bhutto: Lack of progress.
Karan Thapar: Lack of progress on Kashmir doesn’t mean there can’t be any progress on other issues in other areas.
Benazir Bhutto: That’s right. Very well put.
Karan Thapar: So, you’ll be happy to proceed on trade, visas, sporting contacts and a whole lot of other areas?
Benazir Bhutto: I believe it is essential for us to proceed on trade. The world is dividing into economic trading blocks and the people of the subcontinent can only have a better future if we can work together.
Karan Thapar: Will a future Prime Minister, Benazir Bhutto, give India Most Favoured Nation status? You refused it by the way when you were first in power.
Benazir Bhutto: Okay. I don’t remember the Most Favoured Nation, but I can tell you that in 1988 when we had the SAARC Summit, I proposed to all the SAARC leaders, including Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi, that we should have a South Asian Preferential Tariff Agreement.
Karan Thapar: Which has come into being?
Benazir Bhutto: Which came into being then and, in my second term, I ratified it because I have always felt that SARRC should be more than a cultural association.
Karan Thapar: So you will boost trade with India?
Benazir Bhutto: Yes.
Karan Thapar: Regardless of the fact that there may not be progress in Kashmir. It won’t be an obstacle to trade?
Benazir Bhutto: It’ll be unfortunate if there will be no progress on Kashmir. But it won’t be an obstacle to trade or to a South Asian Economic Union, which I believe is very essential.
Karan Thapar: Let’s then come back to the Charter of Democracy. Clause 18 says, 'the Kashmir dispute should be settled in accordance with the UN resolutions'. Now today when Gen Musharraf has repeatedly said that Pakistan is prepared to move, Pakistan is prepared to move beyond the UN resolution. Why are you harking back to them?
Benazir Bhutto: Well, the consensus in Pakistan is that the UN Resolution should be adhered to.
Karan Thapar: Where did you find out that this is the consensus? Your newspapers suggest something else.
Benazir Bhutto: Well, Gen Musharraf’s proposal to do away with the UN Security Council Resolution do not really have a widespread backing.
Karan Thapar: Can I point out? You were the leader who in the last three years spoke about open borders, free trade. You even spoke about joint parliaments. Today after signing the Charter of Democracy, when you believe that in fact you are somewhere near returning to power, you have gone back to your own beliefs.
Benazir Bhutto: No, we haven’t gone back on our beliefs. We believe that the Kashmir dispute should be settled in accordance with the United Nations resolutions. We don’t believe that we in Pakistan can dictate to the Kashmiris what their future ought to be.
Karan Thapar: So just to be clear. You’re saying that the resolution of Kashmir has to be in terms of the UN Security Council Resolution?
Benazir Bhutto: Yes. That’s what international law says.
Karan Thapar: Leave international law aside. Is that what Benazir Bhutto is saying?
Benazir Bhutto: That is the PPP position and the position of the ARD too.
Karan Thapar: But things that Benazir Bhutto said in the last two three years, talking about joint parliaments, which was rare and novel, you have now revoked that and gone back.
Benazir Bhutto: No, I believe that all of us have to work together. I have not revoked that. I stand by that and I’ve just explained to you that.
Karan Thapar: You can’t stand by both things at the same time.
Benazir Bhutto: Yes, you can.
Karan Thapar: Because one is an attempt to move away from the rigidity of the UN Resolution and find new solutions. You can’t have both new solutions and the old solutions having sitting side by side?
Benazir Bhutto: But until a new solution is found, there will be an old solution.
Karan Thapar: So, the old solution is like a safety net under the experiment of the new one?
Benazir Bhutto: You can call it a safety net, but until the Kashmiri people decide on a view that is different than what contained in the UN Security Council Resolution, it would not be appropriate for the PPP or Pakistan to do that. So, I think that there ought to be Track Two talks. And if through Track Two talks, or through negotiations…
Karan Thapar: We’re talking about Track One talks now. This is no longer Track Two.
Benazir Bhutto: Okay, Track One. If a solution is found by the Kashmiri people, that’s for them. But I’m not able to say that we are going to be able to do away with the UN Resolution in the absence of any solution that is found.
Karan Thapar: Let me put it like this. I am not myself sure whether what you’re talking about is a state of confusion or whether it is a state of extreme cleverness. Let’s leave that aside.
Benazir Bhutto: You should clear what you think.
Karan Thapar: Let me instead put to you the three parameters that Gen Musharraf enunciated in India in April 2005 as a guidepost for a solution. They were warmly welcomed by the Indian government and the Indian people. And I will enunciate them to you. “Boundaries cannot be altered, the LoC cannot be a permanent boundary and boundaries must be made irrelevant." Do you stand by that line of approach?
Benazir Bhutto: I have not been taken into confidence by Gen Musharraf on the Kashmir issue.
Karan Thapar: But these were publicly said.
Benazir Bhutto: They were publicly said, but we have not been taken into confidence in the Parliament.
Karan Thapar: But you have read about them in the papers. You must have heard about them in commentaries. Do you stand by this line of approach?
Benazir Bhutto: We read many things in the papers. But our policy is that we stand by the Shimla Agreement and we stand on a two-agenda item.
Karan Thapar: All that the Shimla Agreement says is that in fact the issue will be resolved bilaterally. Actually the UN Resolution could be an exception to the Shimla Agreement, not a furtherance of it. So again, there could be confusion.
Benazir Bhutto: I wish to avoid causing confusion, but I wish to state that there is a two-agenda item that was agreed upon between the people's government in 1993 and foreign secretary Dixit, who was at the Cyprus Conference, and that two-item agenda was -- one agenda item on Kashmir and one on Indo-Pak relations. And as far as we are concerned, the Indo-Pak relation should not be stalled because of lack of progress on the Kashmir issue.
Karan Thapar: Absolutely, and that is commendable. But on the Kashmir issue, you’re going back 13 years in time.
Benazir Bhutto: As far as we are concerned, the UN Security Council Resolution stand in the field until and if the Kashmiri people arrive at an alternative.
Karan Thapar: All right. The Kashmiri people, I am talking about Omar Abdullah, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, Mehboba Mufti, strenuously endorse a concept that Gen Musharraf enunciated first on this programme in January when he spoke about self-governance and joint management of Kashmir. It was warmly welcomed by people in Kashmir as an idea that could actually provide a solution. Do you think that is worth exploring and will you continue to explore it if you come to power?
Benazir Bhutto: Well, they are the Kashmiri leaders and it is for them to try and make a proposal through a intra-Kashmiri dialogue.
Karan Thapar: But what is the position of Benazir Bhutto? You could be, you claim, the next Prime Minister of Pakistan. I’m asking you for clarity on Kashmir instead what I am getting, forgive me, a mish-mash of different positions going back 10 or 12 years in time and a certain confusion.
Benazir Bhutto: I am 10 or 12 years behind. Because I am not involved in the present peace process.
Karan Thapar: You mean you need time to catch up?
Benazir Bhutto: I need time to catch up. I can give you the overall framework, which I believe I have done, but I need time to catch up.
Karan Thapar: Can I put something to you? Many people who hear you today will say: "Three years ago, she sounded novel. She sounded exciting. She was talking about open borders, free trade, shared parliaments, which is a striking concept today. But going back to the UN Resolution sounds hardline. Worse, she is becoming hardline as Gen Musharraf is becoming accommodating."
Benazir Bhutto: I would disagree with that view.
Karan Thapar: You are disillusioning the people in India.
Benazir Bhutto: It’s not my wish to disillusion people in India or in Pakistan. But I do wish to state that I believe in safe and open borders and this is what I have been proposing by creating a South Asian Economic Union.
Karan Thapar: Many people in India believe that in fact the Army is the right person and party with which a solution to Kashmir can be worked out. When they listen to your prevarication or confusion or the way you have shifted your position, you in a sense seem to be confirming them.
Benazir Bhutto: I have not shifted my position and it would be a great disservice for you to convey that impression. I have stated very clearly what my position is. I and my party are the authors of the open and safe borders policy with India. We are the people who proposed SAFTA and we believe that the future of South Asia lies in coming together like the European Union.
Karan Thapar: But at the same time, you are also going back to the UN Resolution.
Benazir Bhutto: Yes. We are not prepared to abandon the UN Resolution at this particular point of time.
Karan Thapar: So, you’re running two horses together.
Benazir Bhutto: I’m not running two horses together. You understand perfectly well that there is no alternative and you understand perfectly well what I have given is a fair and accurate account of our policies. And I don’t believe that the people of India will be disillusioned because I think the people of India want to move ahead and under Gen Musharraf they haven’t been able to move ahead.
Karan Thapar: Ms Bhutto, Clause number 26 of your Charter of Democracy says, “Terrorism and militancy are strongly condemned and will be vigorously confronted." Does this include terrorism inflicted on India by Pakistan-based terrorist groups, many of whom are financed and supported by the Pakistan government?
Benazir Bhutto: That’s many questions.
Karan Thapar: So just give me a simple yes.
Benazir Bhutto: The issue here is of fighting terrorism and militancy and I feel deeply pained as do many people in Pakistan over the tragic events that took place in Bombay. Of course, no connection has been made with Pakistan and there may be none, but nonetheless terrorist…
Karan Thapar: Connections have been made, forgive me, to the Lashkar-e-Toiba almost indisputable and no one doubts it.
Lashkar-e-Toiba is based in Pakistan. It is perhaps funded by the Pakistan government It is certainly protected by the Pakistani government.
Benazir Bhutto: Certainly, Lashkar-e-Toiba is a militant group and it’s the group which General Musharraf said he had banned. If
Lashkar-e-Toiba is behind these blasts, it shows that General Musharraf has failed despite seven years in power in undermining the groups that wreck havoc.
Karan Thapar: Can I ask the lady in front of me who could be the future third Prime Minister for the third time of Pakistan three critical test questions? If you become Prime Minister of Pakistan again, will groups like the Lashkar, the Hizbul, the Jaish,
Harkat-ul-Mujahideen, the al-Badr be closed down?
Benazir Bhutto: Yes.
Karan Thapar: Definitely? There is no qualification? They will be closed down?
Benazir Bhutto: Yes. They will be closed down with myself if the Constitution gives me the Chief Executive powers. Because at the moment the Prime Minister does not have the power of the Chief Executive. They lie with the president but if I have the powers, yes. I
believe that such groups are undermining Pakistan’s integrity, they are giving Pakistan a bad name, and they are endangering Pakistan’s very existence.
Karan Thapar: What about men like Masood Azhar and Hafiz Mohammad Sayeed? Will you permit them to continue their anti-India tirade or will you control them, perhaps even detain them.
Benazir Bhutto: Yes.
Karan Thapar: Which? Control or Detain?
Benazir Bhutto: Both. First. If they do not behave, then the second.
Karan Thapar: What about the numerous so called terrorist training camps that exist on your side of the Kashmir border and that also exist in the North West Frontier Province? Will they be closed down?
Benazir Bhutto: I have been told that terrorist camps have been closed down but in the event that they are not closed down, they should be closed down and yes given the Constitutional powers, I will close them down. The reason I mentioned the Constitutional powers is because in the past, the President had powers over the military and I was wrongly blamed for acts that were done or attributed to the security forces when I had no Constitutional power over them.
Karan Thapar: That’s why around this time around you want to be the President, if possible, and then you will act?
Benazir Bhutto: Yes. But I feel that whether it is President or Prime Minister, infact I believe in a Parliamentary system and I believe that the Prime minister should have the power over the military and the defence forces of the country and I would prefer to be the Prime Minister with the executive powers. But I say yes, as a leader of Pakistan and the people of Pakistan, I want my people to prosper, I want them to forever finish poverty…
Karan Thapar: And the terrorist training camps will be closed.
Benazir Bhutto: Yes.
Karan Thapar: Expeditiously.
Benazir Bhutto: Yes.
Karan Thapar: There will be no delay.
Benazir Bhutto: No.
Karan Thapar: No prevarication.
Benazir Bhutto: No.
Karan Thapar: No change of mind.
Benazir Bhutto: No.
Karan Thapar: As you know Tuesday was a terrible day in India. There were a series of terrorist attacks in Srinagar and in Mumbai. If you ever become Prime Minister of Pakistan again, will you do your utmost to ensure that such things don’t happen in India again at the behest of Pakistani based terrorist groups?
Benazir Bhutto: Yes. And I may point out that during my tenure there were no attacks outside of Kashmir. I may point out that the Mumbai blasts, the attack on the Parliament, took place when I was in Opposition, as did the attacks on the two attacks on the World Trade Towers. They both took place when I was out of Office.
Karan Thapar: Will you ensure that there are no attacks in Kashmir also?
Benazir Bhutto: I do believe that Pakistan and India should have safe and open borders and if there are attacks, there will be no safety. People will not trade, they will not cross, they will not travel so there will be no tourism.
Karan Thapar: So there will be no attacks in Kashmir by Pakistani based groups when you become Prime Minister?
Benazir Bhutto: Insofar as Pakistan can influence those groups, yes. Because it runs contrary to our vision of South Asia.
Karan Thapar: Many people in India will want to believe you but they will say this is the sort of thing that politicians under pressure in interviews are bound to say. What can you say, just now, that will convince the Government of India and the people of India that you mean what you’re saying. That this is not just hot air and rhetoric.
Benazir Bhutto: People of India know me, they know my family. They know that we are committed to the Shimla agreement. They know that we are committed to a new vision for all of South Asia.
Karan Thapar: Sounds like rhetoric at the moment.
Benazir Bhutto: I don’t intend it to sound like rhetoric. But I do intend to say that we have a very clear vision of where South Asia should be going and we feel that any disruption by militant groups,
Karan Thapar: You know in 1999, General Musharraf saluted Mr Vajpayee in Lahore while planning an attack in Kargil…
Benazir Bhutto: Again you are interrupt me. You do not allow me to complete my sentence.
Karan Thapar: Are you sure that this is not something similar? An assurance for the sake of an assurance.
Benazir Bhutto: Yes. I am sure it is not something similar. I don’t know whether Musharraf saluted Prime Minister Vajpayee at Lahore, but this is certainly a very clear message to the people of India that Pakistan wants to build relations, which can see our people prosper.
Karan Thapar: And no terrorism. Full stop.
Benazir Bhutto: Yes.
Karan Thapar: Absolutely no terrorism.
Benazir Bhutto: Absolutely. I am opposed to terrorism. I have been a victim of the groups that practise and support terrorism.
Karan Thapar: Let’s come to the third aspect of your Charter of Democracy that is of keen interest to India, I am talking of Clause 11-b which calls for a commission to fix responsibility for what happened at Kargil. Will that commission focus on the role of General Musharraf as Army Chief?
Benazir Bhutto: Obviously it will have to look into the people who were responsible for Kargil.
Karan Thapar: Including General Musharraf?
Benazir Bhutto: All.
Karan Thapar: Why don’t you name him?
Benazir Bhutto: Well, I don’t want to pre-judge an enquiry.
Karan Thapar: Well, it’s not the question of pre-judging the enquiry. You see when you don’t name General Musharraf, people say, "Is this because she is quietly doing a deal with him on the side?"
Benazir Bhutto: No I’m not doing any deal with him because I’m suffering and you always look at motive. You look at people who are not suffering and you know that they have done a deal and you look at people who are suffering, facing new attacks every single month and you know that they have done no deal and they are suffering because of that. I say this because I believe in principles. Matters should be left to a commission. What use of the commission if I am going to be the one telling you the details before hand.
Karan Thapar: Allright. Let’s accept you’re being fair. Will the commission also look into the role played by the other senior Generals, like General Aziz, who was Chief of General Staff, or senior core commanders like Lt General Mahmood Ahmed and Major General Javed Hasan. Will they also be looked into?
Benazir Bhutto: Please read out the relevant clause and you will see that the commission is to put responsibility on all those who were responsible. Whether they are known or whether they are unknown.
Karan Thapar: Don’t you realise the danger if you look at all the top Army officers from General Musharraf downwards, you could end up antagonising the Army, offending officers and soldiers whose support you need. You could be threatening your own new position.
Benazir Bhutto: You see, I don't think that we should start saying that armed forces should hold the responsibility for the miscalculations of a handful of people. That’s simply wrong…
Karan Thapar: But the General should
Benazir Bhutto: …People join the armed forces of Pakistan to defend their country. People go through very rigorous life styles leaving their families behind because they want to sacrifice their life for the country. But if a handful of people abuse and exploit the Armed forces, if they create the mistakes, it doesn’t mean that the rest of the armed forces should carry that burden.
Karan Thapar: Allright. My last question on this subject. Will the same commission look into the role and responsibility of the Prime Minister of the time Nawaz Sharif, after all he was the Prime Minister, he was the Chief Executive of the country, the buck stopped with him. Will his role be enquired into?
Benazir Bhutto: Mr Nawaz Sharif himself suggested the wording on that particular clause.
Karan Thapar: That’s not answering my question.
Benazir Bhutto: Yes it is. Mr Nawaz Sharif himself gave the wording on that particular clause and he said repeatedly that he was not involved.
Karan Thapar: He may have said so but very few people believe it and more importantly when he found out, he did not dismiss the Army Chief who had infact broken regulations and rules. He did not even order an immediate withdrawal. So once again, given the critical role he played, will he be enquired into?
Benazir Bhutto: I would have only proposed a commission on the Kargil affair if I was the person in power if I was not involved and Mr Sharif said he was not involved
Karan Thapar: You’re not answering my question.
Karan Thapar: Are you worried that if you say yes, Nawaz Sharif will be a subject of that enquiry. You’re whole relationship with Nawaz Sharif could collapse?
Benazir Bhutto: I’m telling you that Nawaz Sharif has said and dictated that very clause. And when he has dictated that clause.
Karan Thapar: Quite right. But he has also said like you told me moment ago that he never did it.
Benazir Bhutto: That’s why I am saying it is a contradiction in terms to say that Nawaz Sharif is guilty of Kargil when he himself is proposing the commission.
Karan Thapar: So you accept Nawaz Sharif’s position that he knew nothing, that he wasn’t briefed. That he was duped.
Benazir Bhutto: That's what he says.
Karan Thapar: So you accept that as Prime Minister, he was unaware of what was happening in his own country.
Benazir Bhutto: That's what he says.
Karan Thapar: And you're smiling when you say it.
Benazir Bhutto: No. I’m not smiling. And I think you want to spoil my relations with my partners. I wan to say that Mr Nawaz Sharif has categorically told me that he did not know about the Kargil affair and he himself has proposed that commission and I thank you very much for this interview.
Karan Thapar: Ms Bhutto, a pleasure talking you and thank you for talking to Devil’s Advocate.
Benazir Bhutto: Thank you.
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