Devil's Advocate: Buddhadeb

After Nandigram and Singur, is the image of the Left Front Government and the CPI-M in West Bengal badly damaged? That is the key question Karan Thapar put to West Bengal Chief Minister Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee in an exclusive interview on CNN-IBN’s show Devil’s Advocate.

Karan Thapar: Chief Minister, let me start with a simple question. Is the image of your government and the image of your party damaged?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Well, I don’t think so.

Karan Thapar: You don’t think so. You mean it may be damaged?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: No. It will take some time to clear the confusion that has been created after these incidents in Singur and Nandigram.

Karan Thapar: You are saying that confusion has been created, not that your government has mishandled the situation?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: No, I don’t think so. Singur is something different, and in Nandigram, we did commit some mistakes there.

Karan Thapar: How serious were the mistakes in Nandigram?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: In Nandigram, the mistake was that we had to take people in confidence…

Karan Thapar: And you failed to do that?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Yes. The local administration unnecessarily started some administrative measures which were not correct.

Karan Thapar: You are talking of the Haldia Development Authority issuing land acquisition notices. Do you accept the responsibility, as Chief Minister, at the end of the day?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Not at the end of the day — on the first day when I came to know that they have started this thing without discussing it with the villagers, with the panchayat functionaries, with all sections of the people in Nandigram, I told them "stop work". And I have stopped it.

Karan Thapar: How serious a blunder was Nandigram? You have said it was a blunder, but how serious was it?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: I think it should not have taken place, particularly in our state, and particularly when you compare with Haldia, which is just on the other side of the river.

Karan Thapar: Has Nandigram damaged your government?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee:I don’t think so.

Karan Thapar: Not at all?

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Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Not at all.

Karan Thapar: You have been accused of violating human rights by friends of yours like Jean Dreze, Rajinder Sachar, Kavita Srivastava, Romila Thapar, Sumit Sarkar and you are saying that you are not damaged.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: No, I don’t think so.

Karan Thapar: You mean these people don’t know what they are talking about?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: I have great regard for these people, but I tell you the opposition is coming from different corners. The BJP is opposing, the Congress and Trinamool are opposing, some Left intellectuals are…

Karan Thapar: But these are your friends?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: I know. Therefore, I am particularly eager to persuade these people, these gentlemen, these intellectuals to understand what is the policy of the government.

Karan Thapar: Let me give you a chance to do that. I am talking of the Citizens’ Committee of leading Left-wing intellectuals headed by Prof Sumit Sarkar. They visited your state; they visited Singur; they visited Nandigram and they came up with a stinging indictment of the way your government has handled both the places.

On Singur, the points they make suggest you and your government are wrong on all the important issues. To begin with, you claim Singur is mono-crop, they say it grows four or five crops. In addition, they allege that you have based your assessment on outdated land surveys from the early 1970s. They say you don’t really know the nature of the land in Singur.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Allow me to give you a little background to the Singur problem. Why Singur?

The Tatas decided to set up their factory in Uttaranchal for obvious reasons that you know: they got so many incentives. Some states are privileged states, apart from northeastern states and Kashmir.

Karan Thapar: So Singur was a bribe to the Tatas to come to Bengal instead?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Please! They wanted to set up this factory in Uttaranchal, and I was desperately trying to persuade Rata Tata (the Chairperson of Tata Motors) to come to our state. This is because automobile is a very important manufacturing sector.

And finally, I could convince Ratan Tata. Then they came here, and first we decided to set up this factory in Kharagpur, because the land there is not so fertile.

Karan Thapar: And they rejected it?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: No, they moved around the state. They went to Kharagpur. They went to other places, but finally they said this is a flagship project and they want it somewhere near the city, Kolkata.

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Karan Thapar: So they chose Singur?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: They went to Singur.

Karan Thapar: So you, therefore, decided to give them fertile land, knowing that it was the only way they would come Kolkata?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: No, no. What you are saying about the nature of the land — maybe our report is not up to date.

Karan Thapar: You concede that?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Yes. But I tell you that the major portion of the land is mono-crop. I stick to that.

Karan Thapar: How do you know that? If your report is not up to date how can you say the major portion of land is mono-crop?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Then how can they know that?

Karan Thapar: Because they visited it. They have spoken to the farmers.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: I know these farmers better than them particularly. My colleagues are working there, my party, my peasants' organisation know better than these people.

But let me admit it. Our report may not be 100 per cent correct, may be some portion of land produces two or three crops in a year, but the major thing is that you should not miss the woods for the trees.

Karan Thapar: And what are the trees?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Trees is this land, that land. The major thing is that an automobile factory is coming up. What is the value of the agricultural products; how many man hours they create?

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Karan Thapar: Let us take that one at a time. You have disputed their claim that this is multi-crop land. You insist it is mono-crop although you have added that maybe some of your records are not up to date.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Yes.

Karan Thapar: Let me come to the second point they make. The second point they make is the compensation you are giving is inadequate, because you have not taken into consideration the fact that the value of the land will increase exponentially once the Tatas take it over and its land use changes.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Yes.

Karan Thapar: You accept that?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Everywhere it happens. When we decided to give them Rs 9 lakh for mono-crop land, Rs 9 lakh for 1 acre of land, and Rs 12 lakh for multi-crop land.

Karan Thapar: But the committee is saying that this is inadequate because you are not bearing in mind that the value of the land will increase exponentially once the Tatas take it over. You are denying the farmers the value that would then materialise. You are giving them a much lower one instead.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Everywhere it happens. Whenever a factory comes up, everywhere it happens.

Karan Thapar: So you are saying that this is bad luck for them.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: No, no. We don’t calculate the value of the land what it will be after five years, 10 years, 20 years.

Karan Thapar: Expect for the fact that a farmer does.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: There is a clear procedure for the collector (to find out) what the market value of the land is at this moment. When I acquire the land, what is the market value at this moment, not what it will be after 10 years.

Karan Thapar: That is your answer, but others may dispute it.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: You should try to understand — I am again repeating — that there may be some problems in regard to local administration about the character of the land, but finally what does the 997 acres of land produce. Rice, potatoes; what is the value?

Karan Thapar: One step at a time, Chief Minister. The third problem they bring up is, in fact, that a very large percentage of sharecroppers and practically all the agricultural labourers in Singur are outside the compensation package you are giving. You simply have not covered them.

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Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: No, no.

Karan Thapar:You can’t say no. Even Brinda Karat, writing in The Hindu on December 13, concedes that 38 per cent of sharecroppers in Singur do not stand immediately to get compensation.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Let me explain. There are two types of sharecroppers …

Karan Thapar: Registered and unregistered?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Recorded and not recorded, yes.

Karan Thapar:But the unrecorded you are ignoring.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: The present law does not permit to give them land, price.

Karan Thapar: So bad luck for the unrecorded because the law does not permit them compensation.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Please, no. You can give (compensation) to the recorded bargadas (sharecroppers) because there is a legal validity — they have the papers. But how can you know who is the unrecorded sharecropper.

Karan Thapar: Why can’t you check?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: We have checked and we have completed a full list of non-recorded bargadas and agricultural workers.

Karan Thapar: Sumit Sarkar says that thousands of unrecorded sharecroppers are being ignored. Thousands, he says.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Our list is of 1,800, and now they (sharecroppers) are not in the list. They are working in the fields.

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Karan Thapar: But will they get compensation?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Of course! They are getting compensation, they are getting jobs and they are getting minimum wage everyday. What they are supposed to get during harvesting they are now getting more than it, and 1,800 people are working in the fields.

Karan Thapar: Chief Minister, once again I have to point out that there is a major difference between what are you are saying and what your critics, your own allies in the Citizens’ Committee say.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: What Citizens’ Committee?

Karan Thapar: Sumit Sarkar’s committee. He says that thousands of sharecroppers and agricultural labourers are being ignored for compensation. You are denying that?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: I invite him to come to Singur — after one year and then I think he will believe…

Karan Thapar: But the compensation should be given today, not a year later.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Compensation they are already getting.

Karan Thapar: You say they are getting compensation. Let me move to the most critical issue of compensation. The question really is what percentage of people in Singur have rejected your compensation package. You say only four or five per cent.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Yes.

Karan Thapar: The Citizens’ Committee says that the owners of 360 acres, which is 36 per cent (of total land acquired), have rejected compensation.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: All the papers they sent to the Governor — I don’t know the so-called Citizens’ Committee’s papers — but the Opposition leaders sent a paper to the Governor…

Karan Thapar: Mamata Banerjee? She was alleging owners of 464 acres had refused compensation.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: We have checked it, and I stick to my position. Out of 997 acres, we have received…

Karan Thapar: Each of the affidavits Mamata Banerjee gave to the Governor says in spite of my refusal the property has been encircled by a wall and by a wooden pole. These are people who rejected compensation and yet they are encircled and they are compounded.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: I have gone through all these papers. Our departments, our lawyers have gone through all these papers. I tell you I stick to my position that out of 997 acres, 960 acres were voluntarily handed over by the farmers with their consent letters.

Karan Thapar: If it has been done voluntarily, then why do you keep imposing Section 144? If 95 per cent are with you, then why do you keep imposing Section 144 in Singur? What are you worried about?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Because a small group of Naxalites, led by some NGOs, are moving in that area.

Karan Thapar:But they can only have influence because the majority of people in Singur are against your compensation, not because the majority are with you.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: An overwhelming majority of people support our party, our peasants’ organisation and they support this factory.

Karan Thapar: Chief Minister, that is political rhetoric.

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Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Please! Section 144 is only for the Naxalites.

Karan Thapar: But why do the Naxalites have so much influence if the majority of people are with you.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: What influence? You please come with me to Singur. They can mobilise, at best, 100 or 150, maximum 200…

Karan Thapar:Chief Minister, let me put a simple question to you. On Friday, the Calcutta High Court questioned the manner in which you were acquiring land. They are suggesting, in an observation made by the High Court judge, that the manner may have been without consensus. They are questioning the legality, you know it.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: I don’t want to comment on what the court has said. I know it. There was some technical mistake in our order, but I tell you…

Karan Thapar: You accept that technical mistake?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Technical mistake was made.

Karan Thapar: How do you know it was not more serious?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: No, there was nothing serious.

Karan Thapar: But the court is questioning whether you had consensus.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: I have withdrawn Section 144 because the last meeting I attended there, more than 1 lakh people came. The Mamata Banerjee, Trinamool meeting had not more than 4,000 in attendance. You try to understand. I just won’t allow these Naxalites, small groups of Naxalites, to create problems at midnight, at 2.30, at 3.30 am.

Karan Thapar: So it is only the Naxalites?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Only small groups of Naxalites.

Karan Thapar:You are saying to me that the majority, 95 per cent, of Singur are with you.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Ninety-nine per cent people are with us.

Karan Thapar: Ninety-nine per cent?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Yes.

Karan Thapar: Chief Minister, given the depth of opposition that you face, will you roll back Singur?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Not possible. For it’s in the interest of the state. If I roll back in this case, I will never be able to raise my head and that will send a very wrong message all over the world, all over the country. I cannot afford to do this.

Karan Thapar: So no matter what Left intellectuals, no matter what politicians or your allies say, Singur will go ahead?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Of course. I am very sure that I will be able to make them understand why Singur is necessary.

Karan Thapar: Coming to Nandigram, I believe the CPM state committee has taken a decision to put Nandigram on hold. Is that correct?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Yes. We took a decision the next day when the unfortunate incident happened regarding Nandigram. The state committee took the decision because the local administration committed some mistakes, no doubt, without talking to the villagers and taking the people into confidence. That is wrong. My position now is very clear. We have to tell them what is this chemical hub and how it will change the economy of Nandigram.

Karan Thapar: What you are saying is that you will explain to the people of Nandigram the importance of the SEZ. What if they do not accept it?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: If they do not accept it, I will change the venue.

Karan Thapar: So, in other words, the people of Nandigram will have the final word. You will then relocate the project?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Of course. We need that chemical hub.

Karan Thapar: Coming back to the people of Nandigram, the biggest obstacle you face with the land acquisition is the emotional attachment of farmers to their land. Sheikh Rafiq, a farmer in Nandigram, says: "We want to remain farmers. We don’t want industrialisation and we don’t want to lead an urban life." How do you answer to people like him?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: We have to look at the problem from the macro and micro level. The general trend of civilisation all over the world is from agriculture to industry, from the villages to cities. You cannot stop it. And as a Marxist, I believe we have to move from agriculture to industry.

Karan Thapar: But what will happen to someone like Rafiq who does not agree with you?

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Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: They will understand. Rafiq’s sons are now going to school. After graduation, they will not go back to agriculture.

Karan Thapar: In other words, you are saying: "Let them experience the new life and they will want it forever."

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Of course. That is happening all over the world.

Karan Thapar: People say that the way to tackle the problem is to give the farmers, who are going to lose their land, a stake in the development that is going to happen on their land. Give them an equity, some sort of royalty and give them an involvement in the future and not just the market value as it is today. Can you do that?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Yes. We are trying to formulate this policy. We discussed this issue in our last polit-bureau meeting in Delhi. We discussed that we are going to put a proposal to the Central Government to amend the 1894 Act in which the price of the land and remuneration package should be there.

Karan Thapar: And you are going to add to that, giving each dispossessed farmer a stake in the development?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Exactly. For example in Singur, a few hundred boys are undergoing training.

Karan Thapar: Training is different. Can you give them a stake in the property so that they also share the improved market value of the land when it changes into a factory?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: In all cases, it will not be possible. In some cases, it is possible.

Karan Thapar: Can you get the Tatas and the Salim Group to agree? It is easy for you to say it as a politician?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: A section will join as workers in ancillary units. They are undergoing training.

Karan Thapar: But I am talking about more than training and jobs. I am talking about whether you can give them a stake in the property so that they have some sort of interest to give their sons and grandchildren.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: Not in the big projects, but we have various small projects like rubber park, foundry park for which we are trying to use the model you are talking about.

Karan Thapar: Will the Tatas accept this?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: I don’t think so.

Karan Thapar: Will Mr Salim accept this?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: We can talk to him. They have projects for SEZ and townships.

Karan Thapar: But Mr Tata will not accept this?

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: I don’t think so, because we have not discussed it with him. Because I don’t think it is possible for the farmers to be shareholders with him.

Karan Thapar: But it is the only way of sorting out the problem.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: It is not a good idea. There cannot be only one model. They will be engaged in various activities. But how can small farmers be shareholders in Tata’s company?

Karan Thapar: So that’s your answer, though many would have wished you had said something else. It was a pleasure talking to you on Devil’s Advocate.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee: The state government has faced severe criticism and violent protests in Singur and Nandigram where major industries are planned. The government has admitted that it made mistakes while acquiring land for the projects, but is determined to speed up industrialisation in Bengal.