Click to play videoThe 15th Lok Sabha election has completed 60 per cent mark and awaits two more major rounds to go before the results on May 16. Congress, the leading partner of the ruling UPA alliance, hopes to from a government again but analysts reckon it won't be getting enough seats. Has the Congress worked out its post-election strategy? Congress General Secretary Digvijay Singh speaks with Karan Thapar and answers those questions on Devil's Advocate.
Karan Thapar: The revelation that your government has withdrawn the red corner notice against the Bofors scam accused Ottavio Quattrocchi, is an embarrassment. What justification you can have for this blatant attempt to help a man who is a fugitive from the Indian justice?
Digvijay Singh: First of all let me confess that I am not a legal person and therefore I don’t understand the nuances of the Quattrocchi case or the legality of the Bofors case. I am a political man and therefore I would like to answer politically.
Bofors case has been pending since 1986-87. Successive governments came and gone. If they had something in this case why didn’t they file a chargesheet, why didn’t they make it public, what is there to hide?
Karan Thapar: Let me tell you the facts of the case. The CBI believes that they have documentary proof given by the authorities that proves that he is a recipient of kickbacks from Bofors, he has been chargesheeted an Indian court, he has a warrant of arrest against himself since 1997, he has been absconding from Indian justice and you have attempted so many times to get him back but now suddenly you have decided to throw him in the towel.
Digvijay Singh: Why would we be interested? Why would we support Quattrocchi? I fail to understand. We are interested only when there is a case against Rajiv Gandhi, why is Quattrocchi linked with us?
Karan Thapar: Quattrocchi is being linked with you (Congress) because he was a very close friend of the Gandhi family during 1980s. He is an Italian and there is a lot of suspicion that it is under the influence of Sonia Gandhi the Congress party is bending over backwards to help him.
Digvijay Singh: It is very unfair on your part to say all this. Mr Jogendra Singh was the CBI chief in the mid 90s. Since then for six years India had a NDA government, what made them not go ahead with the Bofors case.
Karan Thapar: Let me answer that as well. Under the NDA four attempts were made in the Malaysian courts to extradite him (Quattrocchi) but unfortunately it was turned down by the Malaysian courts. But after it was turned down by the Malaysian high court turned it down and it (NDA government) could appeal in the supreme court, he absconded from Malaysia. He is now gone to Italy and the government refuses to extradite a citizens to India.
As long as the red corner notice was active, Quattrocchi would have lived with this fear that whichever country he might visit that country might extradite him to India and you could have brought him to justice. Now, by removing that red corner notice, that one fear he had is gone. You have done that one thing for him, you have made him a free man?
Digvijay Singh: Why are you blaming the Congress or the UPA Government for it. The autonomy of the CBI is well known. We have not been interfering in this case. The NDA government failed to chargesheet him, extradite him.
Karan Thapar: He was chargesheeted in the 1990s, long before the NDA government came into the power; the arrest warrant was issued against him in 1997, again before the NDA government came into power and in fact much of it happened when Narsimha Rao – a Congress prime minister was in office.
Digvijay Singh: Then why you blaming the Congress for it?
Karan Thapar: Because if you look at the history of Quattroacchi’s history under the last fives of Dr Manmohan Singh, there are three instances where the Congress bended over backwards to help him. In 2004 you deliberately chose not to appeal against the Delhi High Court judgment in the Supreme Court, in 2005 you in fact gave evidences that his frozen accounts in London were released and you even told the crown prosecutor in England that there were no cases against him. Again in 2007 when his extradition from Argentina was bungled the Government chose not to appeal in the Argentina high court. There is a clear pattern one after the other of helping Quattrocchi.
Digvijay Singh: I told you earlier that I don’t know the legal nuances of this case. But one thing that I know is that if there were a corruption charges against Rajiv Gandhi no one has been able to prove, his name doesn’t figure out anywhere. We have nothing to do with Quattrocchi.
Karan Thapar: His (Rajiv Gandhi) name was on the chargesheet which was dropped after his death. Now lets come to political implications.
Today as a result of your Government revoking the red corner notice, tens and millions of Indians who are going to vote on May 7 and 13 are going to vote with a suspicion in their mind that under the influence of Sonia Gandhi the Government has bend the law to save an Italian and a person who is a fugitive from the justice.
Digvijay Singh: Let me tell you Karan, Bofors is a dead horse. Only people who are in Delhi and some people who live near Delhi or have heard about it know about the case. Ninty to 98 per cent of the Indian population has to do nothing with this case, they are more concerned about the other basic issues of the country.
Karan Thapar: It is not Bofors I am talking about, I am talking about what Bofors does to bring back the Italian connection. It had been laid to rest and now it has been brought back to haunt Sonia Gandhi.
Digvijay Singh: This Italian connection, Italian heritage all have become joke now. Sonia Gandhi has proved that she is an Indian national. She is duly elected Member of Parliament and she is one political leader who gave up the prime ministership which was offered to her on a platter.
Karan Thapar: And also the president of a party which has again and again bend over backwards to help a man who is a fugitive from the Indian law just because that man was one of the closest family friends the Gandhi family had and because he is an Italian.
Digvijay Singh: I deny these charges. You are being unfair.
Karan Thapar: Let us come to the second aspect of that. The belief what Quattrocchi highlights is that you have converted the CBI into a handmade part of the Government. Look at the number of instances where it is accused of doing your bidding – the Mayawati case, the Mulayam case, the Sibu Soren case, the Lalu case and the last one is this the Quattrocchi case. The credibility of the CBI has been demolished.
Digvijay Singh: What happened in the Mayawati and Mulayam case, have they been obliged? No. What has happened in Sibu Soren case, nothing.
Karan Thapar: You flip-flopped the Mulayam case and in Sibu Soren case you went backward and stopped the CBI. Look at the Jagdish Tytler case.
Digvijay Singh: In Jagdish Tytler case there is no evidence, the NDA government had withdrawn the chargesheet.
Karan Thapar: In Jagdish Tytler case, there are various worrying instances. There is a belief that what was suppose to be a secret report was leaked to Jagdish Tytler in advance and there is also a belief that in fact a report was created to exonerate a man to make him a Congress candidate. And in Mulayam Singh case the case was flip-flopped according to whether you like him or not.
Digvijay Singh: You forget that Mulayam Singh Yadav’s case is being monitored by the Supreme Court.
Karan Thapar: Yes, which is why the manner the CBI has behaved has been revealed to us. The SC itself has turned around and accused the CBI in Mulayam’s case in doing the Government’s bidding.
Digvijay Singh: As far as we are concerned we are clear that the CBI is an autonomous body and we don’t interfere.
Karan Thapar: That is what you say but I put it to you that if Jawahar Lal Nehru was alive today he would be embarrassed by the party and would be mortified by what his grand daughter is being accused of.
Digvijay Singh: First of all, I refute these charges. Sonia Gandhi has been extremely conscientious of her duties.
Karan Thapar:After your failure to create a seat-sharing alliance with Mulayam, Paswan and Lalu, after your failure to get them and Sharad Pawar to endorse Manmohan Singh as the prime ministerial candidate, and after the PMK broke with you, in what sense does the UPA still exists?
Digvijay Singh: There is a UPA government in Delhi, where Mr Sharad Pawar is a minister, Mr Ram Vilas Paswan is a minister and Mr Lalu Prasad Yadav is a minister.
Karan Thapar:And listen to what they say about the UPA, listen to the fact that they questioned Mr Manmohan Singh's continuation as prime minister, you don't have seat-sharing alliances with them ...
Digvijay Singh: They have changed their statements a number of times.
Karan Thapar:Except that the last statement that they have taken is the one that you possibly can’t like them
Digvijay Singh: How are you sure that they will not change it again.
Karan Thapar:If they change their statements a number of times then you are neither united, you are definitely not in alliance, and if you are progressing, you are progressing towards oblivion.
Digvijay Singh: Even UPA in 2004 was formed after the election results came in.
Karan Thapar:So you are going to reform yourself? Because if you are going to reform yourself, that means you don't exist today.
Digvijay Singh: Left me finish. In a fractured mandate one has to look at the possibilities. And as I have always said that politics is an art of possible. Out of all the possibilities, if we have to form a government, we shall talk to the political parties who are secular, who are anti-communal and we will talk to them.
Karan Thapar:If I read what you are saying correctly, you are suggesting that the UPA does not have the cohesiveness or the strength and now you have to look beyond the UPA to form a government, can you confirm if that is what you are saying?
Digvijay Singh: UPA as a united front is certainly not fighting an election as a political entity. We are fighting this election as different political parties. And after the results come in, we shall see how the results have come in, what is the mandate and we shall take a decision.
Karan Thapar:So you are open to looking beyond the UPA to find fresh allies to form a government?
Digvijay Singh: Well, each political party in this country, whether its the BJP, Congress or the JDU or the UPA, they are looking for fresh alliances.
Karan Thapar:The problem you face is that, repeatedly, parties outside the UPA are publicly and sometimes very passionately saying that they will not under any condition support a Congress-led government. It has been said by the Left, TDP, JDS, AIADMK and the BJD. The problem is just when you need additional support, you are becoming untouchable like the BJP.
Digvijay Singh: Let's see.
Karan Thapar:Lets see what?
Digvijay Singh: Let's see on May 16 how untouchable we are.
Karan Thapar:If on May 16, Congress fails to cross 150, if on the May 16, the UPA fails to cross 200, and those are very possible outcomes, in that situation, would you struggle to find fresh allies or will you say that the time has come to protect our honour and our integrity and sit honourably in the opposition. Which will be your first inclination?
Digvijay Singh: All options are open.
Karan Thapar:You mean sitting in opposition is an option for you?
Digvijay Singh:Absolutely. For any political party to sit in the opposition is always an option.
Karan Thapar:So you don't rule out the possibility that this election could end with Congress in opposition, not in government anymore?
Digvijay Singh: Not likely.
Karan Thapar:But you are not ruling it out?
Digvijay Singh: How can you rule out anything in politics?
Karan Thapar:If you are going to try and get fresh allies, what are you going to offer them that will entice them to overcome their hesitation, to over come that they publicly said that they would support you and now come around and do that?
Digvijay Singh: All these political parties have changed their stance so many times, and they have said so many things so many times. As I said earlier, whatever possibilities are there at that moment, we shall look into them.
Karan Thapar:The problem is that the parties whose additional support you need have not changed their stance. The Left, TDP, JDS, AIADMK, and the BJD, from the start to the finish are repeatedly and publicly saying they won't support you. So I comeback to my question. What on May 16 can you offer them to overcome their disinclination? What can you do to entice them?
Digvijay Singh: In 2004, Did the Left front ever say that they would support the Congress government?
Karan Thapar:The Left front didn’t fight that election, promising not to support the Congress in any circumstances. This time round, the Left Front have fought an election. In fact, your colleagues are saying they will come around to us. Karat repeatedly says not on your life?
Digvijay Singh: Karat is not Left front. There are other people also.
Karan Thapar:Karat might well be the single most important leader the Left front has.
Digvijay Singh: You may think so, but let's see what happens after May 16.
Karan Thapar:Jayalalithaa isn't offering you any hope, Chandra Babu Naidu isn't offering you any hope, Deve Gowda isn't offering you any hope, Naveen Patnaik isn't offering you hope. Where is the hope?
Digvijay Singh: Just wait for the May 16 and if we don't form a government, the heavens are not going to fall.
Karan Thapar:Heavens will not fall if Congress doesn't form a government?
Digvijay Singh: Yes.
Karan Thapar:That's the message you are sending out?
Digvijay Singh: I am not sending out, but what I am saying is that we are mature political group which is more concerned about the wellbeing of the nation, wellbeing of the people and we have gone to the people to vote us into power, and if we don't get into power, as a responsible political party, we are prepared to sit in the opposition.
Karan Thapar:This sounds very much like the sound of resignation. It sounds like an acceptance that you are not going to win. Are you suddenly expressing a reality that you have begun to sense?
Digvijay Singh: I have said, we are certainly forming the government, but in any eventuality, if we are not able to do so, we will act as responsible and sit in the opposition.
Karan Thapar:You are just 60 per cent through this election, two major rounds are still to be held, no political party at this point is prepared to concede the possibility that it won't form a government, you are going further by saying, the heavens won't fall if we don't form a government. I put it to you, is this realization that you are going to lose.
Digvijay Singh: We are coming back with better numbers, better majority that what we had before.
Karan Thapar:It sounds such a contradiction to what you said a moment ago.
Digvijay Singh: This is what I have said. This is a political reality but the point that I am trying to make is, today I can tell you that we are going to fair much better than what we did in 2004.
Karan Thapar:You said it's a political reality, let's talk about another political reality. If you are going to have even a fighting chance of forming a government, then you are going to have to find clever ways of bring people on your side, people who are committed not to support you. Let me put two things to you could do and ask you if you are prepared to do then. First of all, are you prepared to set aside Dr Manmohan Singh and find another prime ministerial candidate so that the Left and the Third Front might be willing to support that new individual?
Digvijay Singh: No.
Karan Thapar:You are saying no now, but is it not an option that you could consider on May 16?
Digvijay Singh: I am not empowered to say that.
Karan Thapar:Aah! you are not empowered to say but it remains a possibility surely? Let me put it in another way, which would be your option? To stick by Manmohan Singh and fail to form a government or change Manmohan Singh for another prime ministerial candidate and succeed in forming a government.
Digvijay Singh: This is totally hypothetical. Congress' stand is simple and quite clear. Dr Manmohan Singh is our prime ministerial candidate.
Karan Thapar:Until as such time that you have to drop him presumably?
Digvijay Singh: This may be your assessment.
Karan Thapar:Aah! but again, it is a logical assessment isn't it?
Digvijay Singh: Well you may call it logical.
Karan Thapar:You are not calling it illogical?
Digvijay Singh: Let's go ahead.
Karan Thapar:Secondly, are you prepared today to say that you will share the four top portfolios in the government. I am talking about defence, foreign affair, home, and finance with your allies, something you didn't do in 2004 but you are prepared to do it now as a way of bring them onboard?
Digvijay Singh: It is too early to talk all these things. Let's wait for May 16.
Karan Thapar:But once again, you are not ruling it out?
Digvijay Singh: Let's wait for May 16.
Karan Thapar:But if on May 16 you are required to share the top four portfolios as a condition for forming a government again, that is something that you could consider?
Digvijay Singh: I am really no empowered. This decision has to be taken by the working committee and the Congress president.
Karan Thapar:Absolutely, and once again you suggested therefore it's not ruled out. It may not be in your perogative to take but it is not ruled out.
Digvijay Singh: Well, I can't say that because ultimately, it is the working committee and the Congress president who has to decided on these sensitive issues.
Karan Thapar:My last question. Which do you prefer? To sit in opposition or form a government?
Digvijay Singh: Naturally to form the government.
Karan Thapar:Therefore, if it takes changing the prime ministerial candidate, you will do it?
Digvijay Singh: Again, today, Dr Manmohan Singh is our prime ministerial candidate.
Karan Thapar:But the emphasis is on the word today. A pleasure talking to you.
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