Click to play videoKaran Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil’s Advocate. Have George Fernandes and Nitish Kumar come to parting of ways? And what does the future hold for George Fernandes? Those are the two key issues that will be discussed in an exclusive interview with George Fernandes.
Mr Fernandes, let me start with a simple question. How serious or how deep is the rift between you and Nitish Kumar?
George Fernandes: The rift is certain. Time will tell how serious it is and I would certainly wait for that time.
Karan Thapar: Do you feel you have been let down by a close colleague? Do you feel that you have been betrayed?
George Fernandes: Yes, to an extent. Because I was the one who brought him in the party. I spent three years of my life in Bihar to see that Bihar comes out of the situation in which it was. And when it came out, I had to go out.
Karan Thapar: In other words, at the moment of success, he kicked you in the teeth?
George Fernandes: That’s right.
Karan Thapar: Let’s go back through the chronology of the major events that brought you to this point. Most people believe your differences began in 2004 when Nitish demanded back Nalanda, a constituency you won in 1996, 1998 and 1999. What exactly happened at that time?
George Fernandes: Nitish was worried about his chance at the elections, which were coming. He told me that he didn’t want to fight the election and he wanted to work for the party. I told him all of us are working for the party. I told him, “you are working and I am working, so why you have to resign? If you have to resign, I will also resign.” Then he made a point, he said he was worried about his situation in the next election. He was totally scared of losing and he did lose.
Karan Thapar: So, in other words, he was hinting that he wanted Nalanda back. He didn’t have the guts to ask you openly.
George Fernandes: That’s right. I understood him and I said, “Nitish, you take Nalanda and I will go to my old constituency, Mujaffarpur, from where I was physically taken away to Nalanda.”
Karan Thapar: So, he made you give up a constituency which you won for three times and which you had nurtured, because he felt unsafe where he was and he wanted the security of Nalanda for himself?
George Fernandes: That’s right. And I had done a lot of work in that constituency also.
Karan Thapar: Which you now had to sacrifice?
George Fernandes: Yes.
Karan Thapar: The second split or the second cause of split between you happened, in fact, over the issue of nominating Jaya Jaitley, a former president of Samata Party, to Rajya Sabha. You believe that Nitish Kumar reneged on a commitment he made to you.
George Fernandes: Yes, I did feel that and I think it was something which I could not accept because in so many words he had told me that she should be there. And when the time came, he let her down.
Karan Thapar: In fact, when the time came and you were speaking to him on the telephone, I believe, he actually banged the phone down on you.
George Fernandes: Yes. I think he didn’t have the courage to tell me why and how he had to do this. The only thing he could do was to put the phone down and that’s what he did.
Karan Thapar: Of course, the big divide between you happened this year over the issue of Janata Dal presidential elections. Why did you feel it was important for you to stand as a Janata Dal presidential candidate?
George Fernandes: I have been the president of the party and I have been out of presidency also. Not once, but many times. In this case, I was made to feel that I should continue.
Karan Thapar: Nitish made you feel that he would support you?
George Fernandes: Yes.
Karan Thapar: And then he turned his back on you?
George Fernandes: That’s right.
Karan Thapar:So he led you up the garden path?
George Fernandes: Yes.
Karan Thapar: In the end, he ended up supporting Sharad Yadav and you lost by 413 votes to 425. Your supporters said that the election had been rigged. Do you believe that the election was rigged?
George Fernandes: Yes, it was.
Karan Thapar: You have no doubt in your mind?
George Fernandes: Absolutely not.
Karan Thapar: Rigged by Nitish Kumar himself?
George Fernandes: Well, Nitish I think played a role in that election per se.
Karan Thapar: But was the rigging done on his instruction?
George Fernandes: I won’t be able to make a statement on that.
Karan Thapar: But that’s what you suspect?
George Fernandes: Yes, it could be.
Karan Thapar: Since that election, you publicly criticised the state of affairs in Bihar under Nitish Kumar, particularly in the months of August and September. For instance, on September 6, you told PTI nothing has changed in Bihar so far under the new government and the people’s dream of prosperity and the rule of law is still a distant dream. Kidnapping goes unchecked and there is no improvement in the economic front.
George Fernandes: I spoke the truth as it was. I had people coming to this house and giving me their stories. I had to go to two or three places to see what the situation exactly was.
Karan Thapar: So, after you heard accounts from people how bad are things in Bihar, you checked them up yourself before you made your statement?
George Fernandes: Yes.
Karan Thapar: You also said to the Deccan Herald that corruption under the new regime is rampant and has touched its zenith. Do you really mean that things today are worse than they were under Lalu Yadav and even Rabri Devi?
George Fernandes: That is what the people are telling me.
Karan Thapar: Do you believe it?
George Fernandes: I am inclined to believe it.
Karan Thapar:How do you then account for the fact that at least twice in January 2006 and August 2006, the State Of The Nation poll done by CNN-IBN and The Hindu newspaper put Nitish as the top Chief Minister in the country.
George Fernandes: I think these polls mean nothing.
Karan Thapar: In other words, they don’t detract you from your criticism at all. You stand by your criticism.
George Fernandes: Yes, I do.
Karan Thapar: You told the Times of India on the September 10 that Nitish is an autocrat. You said: “Nitish was an autocrat, is an autocrat and will remain an autocrat.” Why do you say that?
George Fernandes: I said that because he is one. I am again speaking the truth.
Karan Thapar: Are you talking from your personal experience or also from the way he conducts himself?
George Fernandes: I am speaking form personal and also from the experience of a whole lot of people who have suffered.
Karan Thapar: Suffered? You mean that?
George Fernandes: Yes.
Karan Thapar: The paradox is that you have been fairly open in your criticism of Nitish Kumar. On the other hand, he has been understanding. He has even been differential and he calls you his esteemed leader. He says if elders in a family chide then it is the duty of the younger ones to listen quietly.
George Fernandes: I think it is his way of humiliating me.
Karan Thapar: Humiliating you? You mean by calling you an esteemed leader, he is suggesting that you are retired and you are past it?
George Fernandes: Yes, not only that, it goes beyond that.
Karan Thapar: What else does it go towards?
George Fernandes: At one level, he says I have been rejected in the elections and at another level he says I have manipulated the elections. In public, he says I am a great leader. What does that mean?
Karan Thapar: So they are treating you like an old man who needs to be pampered but who is actually past it.
George Fernandes: Yes, one can actually say that.
Karan Thapar: Nitish says that the reason he has differences with you is because you became so close to the BJP that you almost began to accept the Hindutva agenda. He also says that your affinity to L K Advani and RSS Sanchalak has endangered the secularism of the JD(U).
George Fernandes: He has been a part of the JD(U) and it is the JD(U) that has an alliance with the BJP. But other than that, it was Advani himself who proposed that he should be the chief minister when we win the election. I made a statement that those people who get elected and come to the Assembly should decide who should be the chief minister. When one says that I want that particular person to be the CM, he is actually favouring autocracy.
Karan Thapar: You are also saying that Nitish owes a debt of gratitude to L K Advani because he suggested that Nitish should be the CM when you were not prepared to give him that recommendation. And instead of showing gratitude, Nitish is being ungrateful to Advani and the BJP.
George Fernandes: Yes.
Karan Thapar: The irony is that today the BJP isn’t supporting you either. Their National Party spokesperson Ravi Shankar Prasad has said: “We disapprove of and disagree with Mr Fernandes’ comment on Nitish Kumar and the Bihar Government.”
George Fernandes: In politics, one has to face such situations also when memories are very short. I won’t comment on what Prasad has said.
Karan Thapar: Are you saying that Prasad has forgotten how much you helped the BJP and what credibility you gave the BJP, by being a part of their government?
George Fernandes: He said it.
Karan Thapar: So in other words, Prasad is being ungrateful by not standing by you today in your hour of need?
George Fernandes: I didn’t expect him to stand behind me.
Karan Thapar: But you didn’t expect this either?
George Fernandes: Yes.
Karan Thapar: Today, it is being reported in newspapers like the DNA that Nitish Kumar has asked of you to be removed as convener of the NDA and the BJP has more or less agreed with him.
George Fernandes: That is good news.
Karan Thapar: Don’t you want to continue as NDA convener?
George Fernandes: NDA is not a party, but a platform on which people come and go.
Karan Thapar: And you are ready to go?
George Fernandes: Yes.
Karan Thapar: In other words, NDA has outlived its utility as far as you are concerned?
George Fernandes: I wouldn’t say that.
Karan Thapar: But you are ready to leave it anyway?
George Fernandes: Well, if they do not want me there, I won’t have any regrets.
Karan Thapar: If they push you, then you will leave?
George Fernandes: Nobody can push me.
Karan Thapar: But if they want you to leave, then you will leave and you won’t stay on where you are not wanted. Is it?
George Fernandes: Yes, I would do that very happily.
Karan Thapar: It seems like you have lost support of the JD(U) and the BJP. There is a real sense that you have fallen between two stools and lost out on both grounds. So, you are happy to follow your own course.
George Fernandes: Yes.
Karan Thapar: Mr Fernandes let’s talk about the road in the future. Newspapers say that you are seriously considering joining Mulayam Singh Yadav’s Samajwadi Party.
George Fernandes: I think people who spread such stories are not aware of what I am doing or where I am going.
Karan Thapar: So, you are not going to join the Samajwadi Party? Is that a categorical no?
George Fernandes: No. What I am saying is that they do not know where I am going.
Karan Thapar: Where are you going?
George Fernandes: I have ideas in my mind and I will make them public when the time comes.
Karan Thapar: It has been said that on October 12, you are organising a large socialist gathering and you have invited Mulayam Singh Yadav to participate in it. Is that correct?
George Fernandes: Yes.
Karan Thapar: Won’t that be viewed by Nitish Kumar as a final break between you, himself and Sharad Yadav?
George Fernandes: None of them are of use to me. I don’t think they will miss me.
Karan Thapar: In other words, you do not care if your relationship breaks over an invitation to Mulayam Singh Yadav?
George Fernandes: Yes.
Karan Thapar: Won’t this also create a rift between you and the BJP because the BJP looks upon Mulayam Singh Yadav as its great rival in UP?
George Fernandes: Yes, of course. The BJP does want to defeat Mulayam. But I have always stood by Mulayam and I will still stand by him.
Karan Thapar: So, you don’t care about what the BJP thinks about your relationship to Mulayam Singh Yadav?
George Fernandes: No.
Karan Thapar: In other words, you are cementing a relationship with Mulayam Singh Yadav on a socialist platform?
George Fernandes: Mulayam and I have been together for almost 40 years now. When he had a situation of having his life in danger, I had stood by him.
Karan Thapar: He was physically attacked, you stood by him and defended him?
George Fernandes:He was on the verge of being attacked and I was there to see that it didn’t happen.
Karan Thapar: From that day onwards, the two of you have been, in a sense, inseparable?
George Fernandes: Yes. but our relationship goes earlier to that. He was a part of the Socialist Party and so was I.
Karan Thapar: In other words, socialist blood is thicker then mere political water?
George Fernandes:Yes, it has to be.
Karan Thapar: Your relationship with Mulayam is thicker and stronger than any links that remain with Nitish Kumar?
George Fernandes: I shall make another point here. As far as Mulayam is concerned, he was the only man who understood what the Tehelka racket was about. He spoke the truth in Parliament and outside Parliament and he also got his people to speak the truth. He stood by me.
Karan Thapar: And today, you will stand by him, defend him and fight for his re-election in UP when the elections come?
George Fernandes: Yes.
Karan Thapar: And yet you are saying to me that you won’t join the Samajwadi Party. Why won’t you take that final step?
George Fernandes: It depends.
Karan Thapar: So you may join?
George Fernandes: No, I am not saying that.
Karan Thapar: Are you considering re-launching the Samata Party?
George Fernandes: There are people who want it to be revitalised.
Karan Thapar: Are you inclined to do that?
George Fernandes: It will depend on how things move in the days to come.
Karan Thapar: So you are thinking along those lines even though you haven’t made up your mind?
George Fernandes: Yes.
Karan Thapar: In other words, you are also thinking of resigning from the JD(U) and possibly quitting your parliamentary seat as a result because the two have to go together?
George Fernandes: So be it.
Karan Thapar: So be it! You are prepared for the final break. Is that right?
George Fernandes: Yes.
Karan Thapar: You want to keep your own distinct identity, but you would like to be as close to Mulayam Singh as possible, that is why you may consider re-launching the Samata Party but you don’t want to join the Samajwadi Party yourself. Is that right?
George Fernandes: Yes, that is right.
Karan Thapar: George Fernandes thank you for talking to Devil’s Advocate.
George Fernandes: Thank you.
(For updates you can share with your friends, follow IBNLive on Facebook, Twitter and Google+)
displayed with permission. Use of the CNN name and/or logo on or as part of CNN-IBN does not derogate from the intellectual property rights of Cable News Network in respect of them.