Click to play videoKaran Thapar speaks to the new president of Bharatiya Janata Party, Nitin Gadkari, about the dissent in the party and what Hindutva means to him.
Karan Thapar: Mr Gadkari, before I talk to you about the BJP and the party, let's start with yourself.
The press has repeatedly said that you have been imposed upon the BJP by the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS). You have denied it every single time and yet the press doesn't seem to be convinced. Does that perception of you worry you?
Nitin Gadkari: Actually it’s a very clear fact. I don't want to hide anything from you. Two months before L K Advaniji had talked with me whether I would want to accept this post or not. Even Rajnath Singh also had discussed this issue with me.
Actually, it's was a unanimous decision in the party. When it was decided that the party is going to select a new person of the new generation, at the very moment my name was fixed. They have discussed this with me.
After that when I discussed with the RSS people at that time they said that this is not our choice, rather BJP have made the choice.
Karan Thapar: In other words, you are not imposed upon the BJP by Mr Mohan Bhagwat (RSS chief)?
Nitin Gadkari: Not at all.
Karan Thapar: The problem is that today many people are saying that the BJP is not an independent political party, it has become the front organisation of the RSS. How can you convince them that's not the case?
Nitin Gadkari: It is the image versus reality.
Karan Thapar: But do you accept that's the image?
Nitin Gadkari: No, that is the image created by some people--a section of the society. Some people are creating this image that the RSS is controlling the BJP. This is not the correct thing.
Many of the BJP workers they are RSS swayamsevaks--that's a true fact. But basically, RSS expects from good swayamsevaks that they should do something for the country and for the society. They should contribute positively for the country. That is their expectation and they have never interfered in our day-to-day activities; they never interfere in the selection of party candidates and politics.
Karan Thapar: You say this is only the image and the reality is otherwise. You have said that RSS never interferes. Yet everyone remembers the repeated statements made by the RSS Sangh Sarsanghchalak (RSS chief) about who should be and who shouldn't be the president of the party; what the right age for the president is and how the party should function. Those sort of comments have created the impression that the RSS controls the BJP?
Nitin Gadkari: One thing is very clear that lot of people in BJP--the leaders--are swayamsevaks of the RSS. We have got ideological relationship. In many a cases we need cooperation from the RSS--this fact is very clear. Many a times we discuss issues with the RSS leadership. But one fact is very clear, you should believe me.
I'm the person, who is known for speaking frankly. I never talked anything false, either in politics or even in my personal life--believe me. For last four years I was the Maharashtra Bharatiya Janata Party president. RSS is a part of my life's conviction but RSS leaders never direct me or give any instruction. Even now, as the BJP president, I'm taking my own decisions.
Karan Thapar: You have said that RSS only co-operates and gives advice. Are you in a position to reject the RSS’s advice?
Nitin Gadkari: Yes, many times. (there is) democracy in RSS. Even when I have gone to the highest leader of the RSS, I can discuss with him. I can exchange with him that this is my opinion.
Karan Thapar: So you can tell----?
Nitin Gadkari: When there is a decision of the RSS regarding RSS matters, every RSS swayamsevak is ready to accept that.
Karan Thapar: Are you in a position to tell the RSS Sarsanghchalak Mohan Bhagwat that I don't agree with you, and as the president of the BJP my party won't take your advice and we will do something different.
Nitin Gadkari: I'm not talking in this language. But there are many things that have happened. I'm a swayamsevak from Nagpur (and) at times I have discussed matters with Sudarshanji ( K S Sudharshan) and Mohanji (Mohan Bhagwat)-- they are the two democratic leaders.
Many a times I have said to them that this is not a appropriate stand. I have discussed many a times many issues with them. I have discussed issues on which their views were different at that time.
Karan Thapar: You're saying to me that when you disagree with them you have their permission to do things your way. You don't have to follow their advice?
Nitin Gadkari: I'm telling you from the core of my heart; you believe me.
Karan Thapar: Alright.
Nitin Gadkari: RSS is a my part of my life's conviction--I won't hide anything from you. I'm here today-- I'm inspired and motivated by the RSS and the Vidyarthi Parishad in my life. I have faith in RSS ideology--
Karan Thapar: But as BJP president you can follow your own path?
Nitin Gadkari: Yes.
Karan Thapar: Alright. I'll accept that, others will make up their own mind.
Let's then talk about the BJP. In the last two years, your party has come to be identified with Kandhamal riots in Orissa, with the Ramsene in Karnataka, with Varun Gandhi in Uttar Pradesh. Has this damaged the popular image of the BJP?
Nitin Gadkari: We are a democratic party. We have many leaders in the party having different views. If any individual does something it doesn't mean that it is the policy of the BJP. As far as Ramsene is concerned it is not at all directly or indirectly related to the BJP.
Karan Thapar: But by being identified with them it has damaged your image. Would you accept that?
Nitin Gadkari: No, it is the people in the press or media--a section of the people--they have decided that they want to attach everything with the BJP.
Karan Thapar: So, you have been misrepresented by the press?
Nitin Gadkari: Many a times. This is my honest feeling.
Karan Thapar: Your a victim of the press?
Nitin Gadkari: Not at all, I'm not blaming the press.
Karan Thapar: Not you, personally?
Nitin Gadkari: Not my feeling. A section of the press feels that the RSS and all others, like Ramsene, is one thing. I don't know about them and we don't have any relations with Ramsene.
Karan Thapar: So, in other words, these identifications with Ramsene or with Kandhamal and with Varun Gandhi is a misrepresentation.
Nitin Gadkari: Each case is different. Whatever the case was with Varun Gandhi, BJP authorities at that time had declared their stand. Kandhmal riot was a different matter and the Ramsene is also a totally different matter.
Karan Thapar: Alright, you're saying it to me that this is misrepresentation that the BJP image has been suffered.
Let's come to the second problem that you have faced. In the last three years it seems that the BJP is riddled with dissent and with squabbles. Over the last three years you have had serious problems of dissent in states like Rajasthan, Bihar, Karnataka, Uttrakhand and even Gujarat. During the national elections there were moments when your national leaders seemed to be quarreling with each other. Today the party with a difference looks like a party with sharp differences within itself?
Nitin Gadkari: I'll tell you one thing: we are a democratic party. People are expecting from our party a different type of the party, which is different from other parties.
Karan Thapar: But that hasn't happened over the last three years?
Nitin Gadkari: I will tell you one thing. There are a lot of good things in the party, that’s why I became a president. I was a small worker; I'm not the son of an ex-prime minister or nephew of anybody.
Karan Thapar: But the problems and the dissent and the division in your state units, even sometimes between your national leaders, they are still there.
Nitin Gadkari: When I became president, Rajasthan problem was solved.
Karan Thapar: Is it?
Nitin Gadkari: Yes.
Karan Thapar: The press doesn't say so; Vasundhara Raje Scindia doesn't say so.
Nitin Gadkari: Two weeks ago the (state BJP) president and Vasundhara Raje had came together and they delivered a press conference.
Karan Thapar: Vasundara Raje Scindia is still hoping and many people who are still her supporters believe that she must be restored as Opposition leader in the Vidhan Sabha. Will you be prepared to do that?
Nitin Gadkari: One thing which I want tell you. I have decided whatever the party issue maybe we will discuss that issue only on party platform. One thing I have learnt from is that the best way is don't talk the issue directly with the press.
Karan Thapar: Except by not talking with the press the problem won't disappear. The problem remains, sometimes it festers and gets worse.
Nitin Gadkari: I will tell you one thing We have some problems in some states because-- there are some problems. But I feel that we can solve that problem. The basic need of the party is mutual trust and discipline. Now what I'm experiencing from all the leaders is that Rajasthan problem is solved.
When I had just taken charge as president, in a six-hour meeting--marathon meeting--we have decided and solved the Rajasthan formula.
Karan Thapar: Is it really solved or are you simply declaring to the public that it is solved?
Nitin Gadkari: I will tell you frankly you just check the 20 days’ history of Rajasthan. You check it and you will find that 99 per cent of the problem has been solved.
Karan Thapar: 99 per cent solved?
Nitin Gadkari: Yes.
Karan Thapar: One per cent remains?
Nitin Gadkari: We are a political party.
Karan Thapar: Alright, let me put it like this. You have been frank to admit that there are states where you had problems. You know and I know--and even if you can't admit it in public--that BJP suffered as a result of association with the Ramsene, whether that's unfair or not is another matter.
Today people as a result say that for Nitin Gadkari to bring the BJP back to power is a Herculean task. The problem is you have never worked in Delhi, you have never been an MP, and you probably have never won a direct election? Are you the right man for this Herculean task?
Nitin Gadkari: I will tell you my track record. Whatever the task which has been given to me by the party, I'm 100 per cent successful. One thing is clear that I'm not experienced with Delhi politics, I have no experience about the national scenario, I have no experience like big leaders, who are in Delhi.
But with the cooperation of the leaders--my senior leaders and cooperation of workers--I can tell you very frankly and bluntly that I'm 100 per cent successful to get a good position for my party and my organisation.
Karan Thapar: But did you hear what you have said, Mr Gadkari? "With the cooperation of senior party leaders."
Let me ask you bluntly. Do you have the full support and cooperation of Sushma Swaraj, Arun Jaitely, Venkaiah Naidu and Ananth Kumar? Do you fear in your heart that they may say you that they support you in public but inside they all are hoping that you fail?
Nitin Gadkari: Hundred percent I'm telling you that all leaders are with me. They are supporting me from the core of their heart. They are guiding me very properly, taking all precautions about my every activity.
Karan Thapar: In other words are they converting you into a puppet? Is that why they are supporting you, so that they can make you do what they want?
Nitin Gadkari: No, not at all. They don't have such type of intentions. The people who know me know that I will never become a puppet of anybody.
Karan Thapar: Let put it like this--
Nitin Gadkari: I can make bonafide mistakes but I can't make malafide mistakes.
Karan Thapar: The problem that you face is each one of these four leaders have more political experience, more administrative experience than you and yet as party president, you are their boss. That's a very awkward, tricky, difficult situation.
Nitin Gadkari: It's not at all. Why are you feeling like that? I don't know. By my experience of last 25 days, I'm telling you from the core of my heart--the way Sushmaji, Ananthji, Venkaiahji and Arunji, even Advaniji-- they are taking me in such a way and taking my care in such a way--like a guardian. They are taking care of my every statement and programme and they are supporting me very nicely.
Karan Thapar: Mr Gadkari, the audience listening to your answers will say that actually what Nitin Gadkari is saying is that they are treating him like a little child. They are supporting him, they are caring him and they are making sure that he doesn't make any mistakes.
That's because they are scared that if they don't treat you like a child, you probably will make a mistake. Is this too much care and attention, presidents aren't treated like juniors? Are they?
Nitin Gadkari: That's not the case. They treat me as the President. They are giving me respect as a President but at the same time I'm a worker of the BJP. I know what the position of these leaders is: they are senior to me and more experienced than me, so I also respect them. They are supporting me, as we all leaders understand one thing very correctly.
Now this is the need of the party that we should work hard for our party, because this time it is really a critical test for our party to get a strong party organisation in our country.
Karan Thapar: Let's talk about how you propose to bring the BJP back to power. After a similar length in Opposition, parties like the Labour and Conservative in Britain had to literally reinvent themselves to win back public confidence. Do you accept that to make the BJP a wining party, you have to recreate the party.
Nitin Gadkari: We are 10 per cent less--percentage of vote--than compared to the Congress party. We have to concentrate more on schedule tribes and schedule caste, minorities and unorganised labour sector.
I have prepared a formula, a plan for that by which we will concentrate on this forum particularly. I feel that we can increase some percentage of vote from there. The second thing what I feel is that politics is an instrument of socio-economic reform. Politics doesn't only mean to become a MLA, MP or Minister and 100 per cent politics is not the real meaning of politics. Rajkaran, Samajkaran and Rastrakaranthey are three different words-- we have to work for the last man of the society.
Karan Thapar: Can I interrupt and say that every single party says that? There is not one party in India that doesn't claim to work in the interest of the last man in the society. What you have to do is to give the BJP another--
Nitin Gadkari: For that purpose you have to check the track record of everybody. You are absolutely correct. I'm the person, anyone can make the audit of it. Whatever I say, not a single journalist in my state can never asked me--
Karan Thapar: In other words, you are man of your words? Whatever you say you do?
Nitin Gadkari: I will do. I'm already doing a lot of social works in my area and I always tell my colleagues that first do some good thing for the society, help the poor.
Karan Thapar: I would readily accept that Nitin Gadkari is a man of his word; he is not a hypocrite, that he actually does what he says?
But the problem is much bigger than that. It is not Nitin Gadkari alone that has to get elected, the BJP has also to get elected. The real problem is can you design an appeal for the BJP that wins back support. Let me give you a clear example. Hindutava is a clear plank of your party. The problem is that India in 2010 is a very different to the India in 1992.
Today, 'Hindutava' is perceived as socially divisive, as an impediment to economic development, which is what people really care about.
So let me ask you bluntly: in today's India will Hindutava continue as the central plank of the BJP or are you prepared to think again about it positioning in your ideology?
Nitin Gadkari: The Supreme Court has defined a definition for 'Hindutava', very nicely--it is a way of life. Whatever people understand about 'Hindutava' is not the real meaning of it. It is a way of life.
Karan Thapar: So you accept that Hindutava' has been misunderstood?
Nitin Gadkari: A section of media has always interpreted the meaning of 'Hindutava' negatively, that it is against Muslims and minorities.
Karan Thapar: But it is not the section of media only, people of India perhaps misunderstood 'Hindutava'.
Are you prepared to either re-explain it to them and convince them that their understanding is wrong? Or are you prepared to gently push it to the backburner
Nitin Gadkari: 'Hindutava' is related to cultural nationalism and nationalism is our soul. We all are working for nationalism and we all have a dream that we have to make India a 21st century nation--India as a super-economic power. We want to create it as a very, very powerful country.
Karan Thapar: Most people believe that actually Hindutava won't achieve that end. 'Hindutava' will only divide India and stop India's economic progress. It will pit Hindus against Muslims, Hindus against Christians. That's what they say Hindutava has no relevance.
Nitin Gadkari: That is not the correct meaning of that. We don't want to politics on the basis of caste, religion, creed or language.
Karan Thapar: Let me put it like this: will Hindutva remain central to Nitin Gadkari's BJP?
Nitin Gadkari: Politics for development is my main agenda--cultural nationalism is the important thing and cultural nationalism includes Hindutva.
Karan Thapar: But you have said something very significant. Politics for development is your main thing.
Nitin Gadkari: Yes.
Karan Thapar: So the main appeal, focus of the BJP under Nitin Gadkari is development.
Nitin Gadkari: Yes, India strong!
Karan Thapar:That is something new--I am underlining it. That is the first thing. Cultural nationalism comes second--Hindutva is a part of cultural nationalism. You are therefore interpreting and packaging it as part of cultural nationalism. The main focus is politics of development.
Nitin Gadkari: Politics for development, yes. Because Hindutva is related to nationalism and nationalism is related to development of the country.
Karan Thapar: That is a very interesting interpretation. Under Nitin Gadkari the BJP is going to present itself as the party of development.
Nitin Gadkari: Yes.
Karan Thapar: So in fact you are promising to the Indian people vote for me, vote for my party, I can make India a 21st century powerful country.
Nitin Gadkari: Yes, definitely.
Karan Thapar: Religion is not your appeal, development is.
Nitin Gadkari: Definitely.
Karan Thapar: Mr Gadkari, a pleasure talking to you.
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