Devil's Advocate: Khurshid Kasuri

Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil’s Advocate. Last week’s bombs in Bombay have once again focused attention in Kashmiri terrorists and the alleged support they receive from Pakistan. Although on Thursday, Gen Musharraf strenuously denied any connection, but the firm belief in Delhi is that there is a clear and unmistakable link. That’s the issue I should raise today in an exclusive interview with the Foreign Minister of Pakistan, Khurshid Mahmood Kasuri.

Mr Kasuri, let me start with the question that is at the top of the minds of everyone in India this weekend. Does Pakistan use the jihadi groups and the terrorism to periodically unleash as a weapon or a lever against India?

Khurshid Kasuri: Before I respond to the question, I would like to begin by condoling with the families of the victims and the bereaved in that ghastly tragedy in Mumbai.

And I am very surprised at the way you have put that question. You’ve already assumed the guilt. Everything, you know, has to be judged in the interest of an individual or a nation. How does it serve our interest? On one hand, we are carrying out a dialogue, our economy is doing well. The fact that our economy has done so well in the last five or six years is registered here and is because we have stability and peace.

Karan Thapar: So, are you saying that in fact Pakistan doesn’t use terrorist groups as lever or weapon against India?

Khurshid Kasuri: Of course, I’m saying that. There’s no shadow of doubt.

Karan Thapar: Let me in that case quote to you what you said to Reuters just a week ago. “I think the Mumbai incident underlines the need for the two countries to work together to control this environment. But they can only do so if they resolve their disputes.” You are clearly saying that the terror will only end when the Kashmir dispute is sorted out and to people in India, that looks like a pure threat.

Khurshid Kasuri: I’m very surprised. You can draw any conclusions you like. It’s a very common sensible statement. It’s a matter of common sense. You have large borders. There are hostile people. There are Kashmiris, who have been displaced on this side. You’ve a fence and you are referring to the Government of Pakistan. What I am saying is, the Government of Pakistan has a strong interest in having peaceful relations with India. But in order to prevent people who wish to create trouble, you need to improve the situations.

Karan Thapar: Foreign Minister, you are questioning the logic that I’m putting to you. Let me in fact say to you that it’s not just in India that people believe that Pakistan Government uses jihadi groups and terror as a weapon against India. Your own newspaper, The Post, on May 12 this year, wrote this: “After the initial crackdown, the major jihadi organisations resurfaced and regrouped to run their respective networks with different names and identities.” And then this is what it says: “The pattern being meted out to them by the military-led civilian government suggests that it has been kept on a leash, ready to wage a jihad on Indian-occupied Jammu and Kashmir.” Your own paper The Post believes that terror is a weapon in your hands.

Khurshid Kasuri: If you are going to start quoting each other’s newspapers …

Karan Thapar: But these are your papers.

Khurshid Kasuri: No, no. I’ll quote the encounters in the Frontline, or some other, it was one of the articles that I read. It was on the 18th of September or the 12th of September, 2005, that is the date I think, in which shenanigans of some of your people, what they do in Pakistan have been very well recorded by one of the top intelligence agents of India.

Karan Thapar: It may be that India is interfering in Pakistan. But the point I’m putting to you is opposite. Your own newspaper clearly believes that jihadi groups are a weapon in your hands.

Khurshid Kasuri: What I am trying to say is that your newspapers clearly believe that you are up to lots of tricks here. The issue is we have a free press in both the countries and they are entitled to their opinions. You will get contrary opinions in Pakistan. You’ll even get an opinion in Pakistan, which says, that India is doing a lot of things in Pakistan and Pakistan is not retaliating. So, that proves nothing.

Karan Thapar: Let’s leave newspapers aside.

Khurshid Kasuri: Yes.

Karan Thapar: Let me quote to you instead a senior Pakistani politicians, who no longer denies that the government is involved with the terrorist groups. Asfandyar Wali Khan, the President of Awami National Party, last week in India confirmed to The Asian Age that Pakistan provides weapons and safe houses to the jihadi terrorists. Your own senior politicians say that Pakistan is involved.

Khurshid Kasuri: First of all, I haven’t read the statement. I don’t know the context.

Karan Thapar: Asian Age, 14th of July.

Khurshid Kasuri: No, No. I’m not saying that you are giving me an inaccurate quote. All I’m saying is that if you are starting to quote individual quotes, then why don’t you quote what the United States State Department spokesperson Richard Boucher said.

Karan Thapar: I will.

Khurshid Kasuri: What did he say?

Karan Thapar: The 9/11 Commission in its status report for November said terrorists from Pakistan carry out operations in Kashmir. In its December status report it said, Musharraf has not shut down terrorist camps.

Khurshid Kasuri: Why don’t you talk of the Mumbai tragedy? What has the State Department said? Since you are quoting to me the Americans, let me quote to you the Americans.

Karan Thapar: And I can quote Frank Palone back to you. So what does it prove?

Khurshid Kasuri: I am not quoting you Frank Palone, but the US State Department itself, Richard Boucher, who is in-charge of the area.

Karan Thapar: And Frank Palone, a senior Democrat, a member of the House of Representatives, said: “Pakistan is guilty of using terror.”

Khurshid Kasuri: I’m quoting the person who represents the United States. He has given glowing compliments to Pakistan as being a frontline ally in the war on terror.

Karan Thapar: Let me then ask you a simple and blunt question. Are you then saying that the jihadi terror groups have been restrained as you had committed yourself to do in January 2004? Are you saying that no part of the Pakistani territory is being used to inflict terror on India, as you had committed in January 2004?

Khurshid Kasuri: You have the word of the President of Pakistan. You can’t go any higher. The President himself has been attacked thrice. Would he be supporting the kind of people who are trying to kill him? The Prime Minister was attacked. 45 were killed in Karachi. Who was behind that?

Karan Thapar: Don’t take the doubt of the Indian Government, don’t take the doubt of your own press, don’t take the doubt of your own Opposition politicians. Listen to the international crisis groups, where a member of the executive group is your own Asma Jahangir. This is what it says in its latest reports: “The infrastructure of banned terrorist groups and thus their capacity to mount terrorist attacks remains intact.”

Khurshid Kasuri: What does Arundhati Roy say about the level of Indian democracy? Should I accept that, hook, line and sinker.

Karan Thapar: But we are not talking about internal problems, which is what democracy in India might be. We are talking of Pakistani groups inflicting terror in India. That’s a different thing.

Khurshid Kasuri: So, therefore, let’s not be selective. Let’s be positive. I would have wished this interview to tell the people of India that Pakistan is committed to peace. But if you are quoting statements of that nature, then I’ve a list of thousand such statements and they are all in my memory. For everything I’ll respond.

Karan Thapar: Let me one last time quote you Aamir Mir, the country’s one of the most respected columnists, writing last week, after the Mumbai blasts…

Khurshid Kasuri: Aamir Mir or Hameed Mir?

Karan Thapar: Aamir Mir. And referring to that particular claim that Pakistan has stopped all terror, this is what he says: “Despite Gen Musharraf’s claim to have uprooted the terror network in Pakistan, most outlawed militant groups and their leaders are back in business.” Second, “Militant groups couldn’t have achieved such potency without the support of the Pakistan military and the intelligence agencies.” Third, ‘The Pakistan establishment needs these groups to achieve its strategic goals in the region.”

Khurshid Kasuri: What’s there in it? It’s a person’s opinion. You can have thousands of opinions in India.

Karan Thapar: I have quoted to you, your politicians, your press, the international crisis group, the US commission. What weight of the opinion will convince you?

Khurshid Kasuri: I can quote to you your own human rights’ opinion on Kashmir. That is not the issue, let us be positive. There has been so much of progress in the relations between India and Pakistan. I am surprised you didn’t quote Kargil, because I was ready with Siachin. Let’s not do that, let’s be more positive.

Karan Thapar: All right. Let’s not indulge in what they call colloquially the ‘Tu-Tu, mein-mein’ of allegations. Let me explain to you instead, why does the Indian Government remain suspicious of the assurances. On Thursday, Gen Musharraf addressed Pakistan in reconciliatory terms. He reached out a hand to Mumbai. He identified with himself the tragedy of Mumbai. Yet, LeT, though it’s banned, your colleagues don’t miss an opportunity to consort with the leader of the LeT, Hafiz Mohammad Saeed. Ministers meet him regularly. They treat him like a honoured political guest or friend, not the head of a terrorist group. That’s why people are suspicious.

Khurshid Kasuri: First of all, Lashkar-e-Toiba has been banned, Jaish-e-Mohammad has been banned. You are now talking about the Jamaat-ud-Dawa. Now, what you are going to say is that why has the name been changed.

Karan Thapar: That’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is, Lashkar-e-Toiba had been banned and in 2002 Hafiz Mohammad Saeed had been detained and yet, today Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain, the President of PML, Senator Mushahid Hussain Sayed, the Secretary-General of your own party PML, attended formal meetings convened by the same gentleman. On 11th February, they did just that. Muhammad Ijaz ul Haq, the Religious Affairs Minister, attended seminars on 21st May convened by the same gentleman. Prime Minister of what you call Azaad Kashmir attends inaugurals of hospitals. Clearly these close associations suggest that far from distancing yourselves from Hafiz Mohammad Saeed and LeT, you are closely linked.

Khurshid Kasuri: It shows nothing of that sort. Vakil Ahmed Muttawakil, the former foreign minister of Afghanistan of the Taliban Government, I don’t know if he is in the Government or the Parliament in Afghanistan. But he is charged.

Karan Thapar: You are not answering my question. Are you saying Hafiz Mohammad Saeed has changed?

Khurshid Kasuri: Hafiz Mohammad Saeed is now the head of Jamaat-ud-Dawa.

Karan Thapar: It is the same organisation under another name.

Khurshid Kasuri: And Jamaat-ud-Dawa is under strict observation.

Karan Thapar: But it’s still the same organisation under another name.

Khurshid Kasuri: No, it’s not the same organization. If it was the same organisation, then it would have been banned. You know, during the recent earthquake, we were told by the Americans, Nato and others that they were doing humanitarian work. They actually helped Nato troops in that area in relief work.

Karan Thapar: Harold magazine last July even went a step further. It did not talk about how your ministers consort with Hafiz Mohammad Saeed, it said 13 military camps run by allegedly banned terror organisations, Lashkar and Jaish, had opened in Mannsera. You say one thing to the Indians and do completely another thing here.

Khurshid Kasuri: It only shows Pakistan has a thriving independent media. Let me pay a compliment to them, actually.

Karan Thapar: Happily, they are revealing the duplicity of the Pakistan Government.

Khurshid Kasuri: I want to tell you something else. What I am trying to tell you is that there are a very few countries in the world, and that doesn’t include India and the United States, where the media takes on the establishment. In our country, media doesn’t even spare the defence and the foreign offices.

Karan Thapar: Foreign Minister, you are very good at turning the tables. But the truth is that the media is revealing the duplicity of your government.

Khurshid Kasuri: I am not turning tables. All I’m telling is that we have an independent media. And I can quote you 20,000 statements of our respected media attacking the Government of Pakistan of what they say, a very, very docile policy on Kashmir and on Afghanistan. So, you cannot quote selectively.

Karan Thapar: Foreign Minister, I’ve not quoted selectively. I’ve quoted comprehensively. I’ve quoted the press, your Opposition politicians, the international crisis group and I’ve in fact quoted the US commission. And now, I’m pointing out facts that your Cabinet colleagues are consorting the man accused of heading a terrorist organisation.

Khurshid Kasuri: I’ve also quoted your people. These are not facts. I’ve responded to that by saying that we’ll not allow any acts of terror by anybody.

Karan Thapar: But that’s happening…

Khurshid Kasuri: No, that’s not happening.

Karan Thapar: The quantity of terror in India since October has gone up markedly. Delhi Diwali blasts, I’m talking of the Varanasi blasts…

Khurshid Kasuri: You know the biggest problem you now have in India? Let me give you an advice in your own interest. Within 30 seconds of anything happening, you already know it’s because of something based in Pakistan. Why don’t you sometimes see what your own newspapers are saying. I’ve been following your newspapers.

I’ve followed the recent Washington Post, what it said about the Mumbai blasts. Your own people are pointing fingers inwards. You are, in fact, misleading the police and the investigation agencies. We want to get in to the bottom of the matter as much as you. We condole with the families of the victims. And please do not distort the investigations of the police.

Karan Thapar: Let me quote to you what Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh said on the 14th of July. “We are certain that these terror modules are instigated, inspired and supported by the terror elements across the border without which with such devastating effect they can’t act.” What do you say to him in reply?

Khurshid Kasuri: Let me go to your Home Minister Shivraj Patil, who made a very statesman-like statement immediately after the blasts. “Let us not play into the hands of the people who like to destroy the Indo-Pak peace process.” I wish to pay a compliment to him and also to the earlier statements of the Prime Minister.

Karan Thapar: What about this statement?

Khurshid Kasuri: This was a reaction to India’s own domestic compulsions.

Karan Thapar: All right. Let me then put it like this. There’s a clear deficit of trust between the Indian and the Pakistan governments over the issue of terrorism. The sweet words that Gen Musharraf speaks on television are not taken at face value in Delhi. People look at what they claim is the reality and say Gen Musharraf is only speaking rhetoric. What happens on the ground is very different. Let me then suggest something. Indians are looking for a concrete gesture of solid proof that you are committed to January 2004 and you will not let acts of terror originating in Pakistan be perpetrated against India. In that case, can you think of a solid proof that can convince the Indian Government?

Khurshid Kasuri: The President of Pakistan on the television goes and says: “We’ll follow up. We will cooperate with your investigating agencies. Give us any solid lead.” What else do you want?

Karan Thapar: And that’s not rhetoric only. Let me give you a suggestion.

Khurshid Kasuri: Then yours is rhetoric. Within 30 seconds you already know who has done it, who is behind it. You don’t in fact look at your own media, which is pointing accusing fingers at organisations within India.

Karan Thapar: I am not sure which media you referred to. You have frequently spoken of media, pointing accusing fingers inwards. I haven’t read any such article. Leave that aside.

Khurshid Kasuri: I will tell you when this interview is over. Because, I don’t wish to dabble in your internal politics.

Karan Thapar: Let me come back to the sort of gestures that I believe will be considered solid proof and an act of good faith by Pakistan. In 2002, the LeT was banned and their offices were raided. In 2002, Hafiz Mohammad Saeed was detained. You have lots of documents and papers that you have taken from LeT. You have an interrogation record of Hafiz Mohammad Saeed. Make both of those available to the Indians.

Khurshid Kasuri: All I am saying is the governments of Pakistan and India are involved in a peace process.

Karan Thapar: No, no. Beyond the peace process, you now need to build trust. Make these documents available.

Khurshid Kasuri: We need to build trust on lots of things. There are lots of things happening within our own country where we need to build trust with India.

Karan Thapar: Are you saying yes, or are you saying no? Or are you not answering at all?

Khurshid Kasuri: No, I am simply saying let’s build trust and a stage will come when we will be able to conduct joint investigations of what happens in Karachi or in Bombay.

Karan Thapar: I am not asking about something that happens after the building of trust. I am talking about something upon which trust can be built. Without this sort of solid proof of cooperation, the Indians will continue to doubt you.

Khurshid Kasuri: No, my response to this would be that there were people killed in Karachi. --- I think you are being very rhetorical. And I wish to keep my voice low. I want to get to the people of India through you. --- People have been killed. Ghastly incidents have taken place in Quetta, Lahore, Karachi. Fingers have been pointed. We have not let the blame, we have not asked for the sort of things that you are asking. All I am saying is that we would rather move towards what you are saying. We will have to help each other and there are many instances where we have made requests to you.

Karan Thapar: Can I make it simpler? Don’t release interrogation records, don’t release LeT papers that you have taken into your chart. Simply do one other thing. The Indians are convinced that Maulana Masood Azhar and Hafiz Mohammad Saeed are responsible for much of the terror that’s inflicted in their country. Allow them to interrogate these two gentlemen in Pakistan.

Khurshid Kasuri: You are asking very strange things. For example, we have not allowed the United States of America, which is our ally for the last 50 years.

Karan Thapar: The Americans don’t think you are involved in terror against them. Which Indians do.

Khurshid Kasuri: No, they are not.

Karan Thapar: You have a peace process with India that’s faltering. You need to revive it. I am asking you for a gesture.

Khurshid Kasuri: We are bending backwards to build the peace and trust. You know, there is something very important I want to point out with relevant to this. The two leaders in a joint statement said that they would not allow acts of terrorism to interfere with the peace process.

Karan Thapar: Quite right. And the Indians are saying that Gen Musharraf has not fulfilled his commitment.

Khurshid Kasuri: What did they have in their minds? Because we have not reached that level of trust. Incidents are happening in Pakistan and India and we need to go towards that.

Karan Thapar: Clearly your answer to my suggestion is obvious to everyone even though you have not said no in so many words. It sounds like a very clear no.

Mr Kasuri, let us talk about the stalled peace process. The foreign secretaries are likely to meet in Dhaka. Are you hopeful that after Gen Musharraf’s recent conciliatory statement on Thursday, when the foreign secretaries meet on July 31, the pieces might be picked up, the process might start again?

Khurshid Kasuri Yes, I definitely think so and I hope so too. In fact, the recent statement of Pakistan just after the Mumbai tragedy has been nothing but conciliatory. We have sympathized with the people of Mumbai.

Karan Thapar So, you are seriously expecting that when the two foreign secretaries meet on July 31 in Dhaka, they will actually move to fix a date for the talks that were stalled?

Khurshid Kasuri Well, I definitely hope so. I am sure that peace lobbies in Pakistan and India would also hope so.

Karan Thapar Let me put this to you. In January, Gen Musharraf revealed on this programme for the first time his concepts of self-governance and joint management (of Jammu and Kashmir). He said he had discussed them at the very highest level with the Prime Minister of India himself. But he was disappointed, he said, that he had got no response whatsoever. Eight months later, have you got a response to those concepts from the Indian side?

Khurshid Kasuri It’s not proper that I talk that openly. However, since the Prime Minister of India had also indicated in a public statement earlier that he had sent something to Pakistan, otherwise I would not be speaking about it. We have received something from India. I think the back channels are working on it. I know what they are doing, but I can’t speak more than what I have already said.

Karan Thapar Don’t reveal the details of the message or the ideas that you have received from India. But are these ideas that you see are as hopeful? Do you see them as a step forward?

Khurshid Kasuri The point is to bridge the gulf between Pakistan and Indian positions. As long as we are talking to each other, I think that is something positive.

Karan Thapar But specifically on the messages you have received from India recently, do you see them as being advanced?

Khurshid Kasuri Definitely, they are advanced because this is for the first time we have got something in writing. It is definitely advanced. But whether the two positions are merging, it would be inaccurate to say so, as we are still talking to each other.

Karan Thapar Maybe the two positions are not merging, but now both sides are coming up with ideas. Both are exploring options for a settlement as they agreed to do in October.

Khurshid Kasuri Yes, I cannot deny that.

Karan Thapar So, in fact the disappointment that President Musharraf expressed in January has now in a sense been catered for eight months later by the ideas that you have received from India on the back channel.

Khurshid Kasuri The President was disappointed because he received nothing by then. But now we have got something from India. I am sorry to have said probably more than what I should have said.

Karan Thapar But you believe that this is an essential step forward. May be a small one, but a step forward indeed?

Khurshid Kasuri Of course. If you don’t respond to somebody else, how can you go forward?

Karan Thapar Then the paradox is that side by side the setback as a result of what happened in Mumbai, there has also been this advance on the back channel. The two contradictory things seem to have happened together, that’s the paradox of the situation.

Khurshid Kasuri Because I think the leaders in Pakistan and India both value the peace process. Unfortunately, the back steps we have been forced to take are a result of domestic compulsions. That is why I quoted to you the very good statements of your Home Minister and also your Prime Minister after the Mumbai tragedy.

Karan Thapar Despite what happened in Mumbai, despite the angry comments from Delhi, do you still remain an optimist?

Khurshid Kasuri I am a born optimist and as a foreign minister who has knowledge of what is going on, I remain an optimist.

Karan Thapar Mr Kasuri, it was a pleasure talking to you.

Khurshid Kasuri It was a pleasure talking to you too.

(For updates you can share with your friends, follow IBNLive on Facebook, Twitter, Google+ and Pinterest)