'Pak, India can't put Kashmir on back burner'

The Hurriyat Conference will later this month visit Pakistan. What does it expect from Pakistan? Karan Thapar asked Mirwaiz Umer Farooq, chairperson of Hurriyat Conference, on Devil’s Advocate.

Karan Thapar: You are visiting Pakistan at the invitation of the new government. Are you perturbed by the spate of comments and official statements suggesting that the new government is dramatically changing Pakistan’s traditional policy on Kashmir?

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: I don’t think there is a change in Pakistan’s policy, but definitely in approach, and which I feel is a welcome sign because if we have to address the issue of Kashmir we have always said that out-of-the-box solutions and out-of-the-box approach is what is needed.

Karan Thapar: The problem is that it may be more than a just a change in approach. Asif Ali Zardari told this programme in March that India and Pakistan shouldn’t be hostage to the UN resolutions. India and Pakistan could agree to disagree, he said. More importantly, he says the Kashmir issue should be left to a later and wiser generation to sort out and in the meantime the two countries should get on to improving their relationship. That is a complete reversal of Pakistan’s traditional position.

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: As a Kashmiri and a member of the Hurriyat Conference, we are not averse to India-Pakistan dialogue or India and Pakistan coming together. But if you look at the recent statement of the Pakistani Prime Minister in which he has reiterated the fact that we need to have a solution—that Kashmiri aspirations need to be taken into account.

The Hurriyat Conference has always been of the view that we as Kashmiris believe that the time has come when Pakistan has to think in terms of more what is in the interests of Kashmiris rather than what Pakistan is going to get out of Kashmir.

Karan Thapar: Except that talking to this programme just two weeks ago Prime Minister Gilani made it clear that whilst Pakistan would consult the Kashmiris he wasn’t going to give them a veto. Secondly he said that Kashmir wouldn’t be an obstacle in the improvement of relations between the two countries. So even Prime Minister Gilani is moving away from the position you want to take.

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: I don’t think we want to be an obstacle. In fact, we want to be a bridge of friendship between the two countries. But let us get the facts right. In all honesty—whatever Zardari or Gilani is saying—Kashmir is the bone of contention. You cannot have workable relations between India and Pakistan unless and until there is some movement on Kashmir.

Karan Thapar: But that is not what Gilani is saying and certainly not what Zardari is saying. I think they are prepared to put Kashmir aside and leave it for a later generation to sort it out.

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: Let us wait for a couple of weeks. We are going to Pakistan and meet Gilani. I believe the ball was set rolling in 2004 when General Musharraf came up with this four-point proposal. I think whatever difference there might be between Pakistani political parties—I remember meeting Benazir Bhutto in 2005 and she told me that she had differences with Musharraf but was of the view that if Pakistan was to move forward on Kashmir she was willing to give support but the only thing was that Musharraf needs to take Parliament into confidence.

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Karan Thapar: The problem is Benazir said that to you in 2005 but in 2008, in fact just two weeks ago, Gilani said to me Musharraf’s thinking was half-baked. He said his government wouldn’t necessarily endorse Musharraf’s concepts of a solution based on self governance or joint management.

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: I think General Musharraf’s ideas could not go further because there was no response from India. If India had responded to the suggestions and proposals given by Musharraf, I think a lot of headway could have been made.

Karan Thapar: But now the Pakistan government is distancing itself from Musharraf’s proposals. It is not India that is the problem.

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: The Hurriyat Conference believes that all proposals and all suggestions are welcome. We want to discuss everything on the basis of merit. We are saying that if the new Pakistani government is coming up with a new set of proposals and ideas, let them discuss it with their people, let them discuss it with Kashmiris—we can sit and talk about it.

Karan Thapar: Let me put to you one of the ideas they are coming up with. For instance, Zardari in March and again in May has repeatedly said that the two countries should concentrate on boosting trade, increasing inter-dependence, building up confidence and then he says only the congenial atmosphere be created in which Kashmir can be sorted out. In other words, he is talking about a trade-first policy: build up trade, leave Kashmir for later.

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: I don’t think that is the fact. I think they are talking about measures, which can go along as far as Kashmir is concerned…

Karan Thapar: You say you don’t think that is the fact but that is what Zardari told PTI on May 22. He said my dream is that Pakistan is the force-multiplier for India. No previous Pakistani leader has ever said that sort of thing.

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: He has said many things. You have to look at the recent statements he has been making. After meeting the leadership of Azad Kashmir he has said exactly what Prime Minister Gilani said. I don’t think we should go by statements—they make statements at different levels.

I think what is important is that you have two or three facts which you need to have right in terms of any movement forward. One is that Pakistan and India cannot afford to put Kashmir on the back burner and talk about trade, politics, cultural exchanges, sports, because… it’s a live issue, people are getting killed. Yes, of course, there is a cease-fire on the borders. Indian and Pakistani forces are not getting killed, but the fact is that Kashmiris are getting killed in Kashmir.

Karan Thapar: But you see the problem? You are saying India and Pakistan cannot afford to put Kashmir on the backburner but Zardari is not only prepared to, he is advocating it.

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: I think you are taking much out of context what Zardari has said. Yes, he is of the view that Indian and Pakistan must come together; there should be trade, there should be exchanges but…

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Karan Thapar: I am not taking it out of context; I am interrupting you to tell what he says. ‘We can be patient till everybody grows up further,” he says.

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: That maybe his personal opinion but I don’t think that is the opinion of the government of Pakistan.

Karan Thapar: But he is the most important person. He is the equivalent of Sonia Gandhi.

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: We have had many people saying different things at different times but we need to be very clear on this. You and I know that in terms of Pakistan there are two important factors.

One is of course the government and the political parties and then the most important factor in Pakistan is the army. So I think any Kashmir policy, if it has to be changed, that has to be in consultation with the army. I don’t see that there is any change in Pakistan’s (Army’s) policy on Kashmir.

Yes, in approach there is a change and we don’t disagree with that change.

Karan Thapar: You are suggesting that the army won’t let Zardari or Gilani actually put into practice what they are saying in rhetorical terms? That’s what you are suggesting?

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: I am saying that it is very difficult for any Prime Minister in Pakistan to come up with a set of ideas and try to implement it on its own, unless and until there is the backing of the other institutions in Pakistan.

Karan Thapar: The army in particular?

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: In particular. We know it for sure.

Karan Thapar: But the problem is that two months have passed since Zardari made his statements, two weeks since Gilani made his statements and the army hasn’t said a word.

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: I think if you look the last statement made by General Kayani, when he visited Azad Kashmir, was very important. He said there was absolutely no question of the Pakistani army letting go of its moral and political support to Kashmir.

Karan Thapar: So your answer to me is, don’t pay attention to Zardari and Gilani, it is Kayani that matters?

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: I am not saying that. I am saying there is complete harmony between institutions in Pakistan at as far as Kashmir is concerned. There might be issues, which they may differ on but as far as Kashmir is concerned it is the core of Pakistan’s foreign policy. So you can’t afford to say that the army is going one way and politicians are going the other way. There has to be a policy in tandem.

Karan Thapar: You seem to be confident about that but separatists and militant leaders in Pakistan are not. For instance, Al-Badr chief Zameen Khan has sharply criticised Zardari for meeting Mehbooba Mufti and more importantly Sayed Salahuddin, the head of the Hizbul Mujahideen, has said publicly that he will wage war on Islamabad and Lahore if any change in Pakistan’s policy means Kashmir suffers.

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These people are very scared; they take Zardari’s change or Gilani’s change very seriously. They don’t see any hope in Kayani.

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: I think let us move beyond statements. In reality if we have to move forward, we have to understand the fact that Kashmir is a very vibrant issue in Pakistan, with all the internal problems and political issues they have, Kashmir remains the key as far as Pakistani public opinion is concerned.

Karan Thapar: They can’t afford to ignore it.

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: They can’t.

Karan Thapar: Except the question is will they seek you as the interlocutor or might they instead seeking Mehbooba Mufti or Omar Abdullah?

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: I don’t think the Hurriyat Conference or any other Kashmiri leader wants to be an interlocutor. We are a party to the conflict, we are a party to the dispute. It is important for Pakistan, if they have to move forward, they have to take into account the leadership in Kashmir.

Karan Thapar: But suddenly Zardari is holding press conferences with Mehbooba Mufti.

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: That is fine. We are not averse to that. If Mehbooba Mufti is saying something which she didn’t say two or years back or if Farooq Abdullah—the same Farooq Abdullah who used to say let’s go and burn Azad Kashmir—then we are not averse.

Karan Thapar: You really mean it? You are not averse?

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: If these parties are serious and sincere in terms of addressing the Kashmir issue, Hurriyat Conference welcomes that.

Karan Thapar: Except for the fact that Naeem Ahmed Khan, president of J-K National Front and one of your colleagues on the Hurriyat Conference, said this to ‘The Indian Express’ on March 31: ‘I would say Mehbooba meeting Zardari is not a good signal from Pakistan.’ He added, ‘It is really alarming.’

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: I don’t think it’s alarming at all. We have been going to India, we have been meeting with Indian leadership—the Prime Minister other political parties. They have been going to Pakistan, through Pugwash or through other delegations.

Karan Thapar:You don’t think this is a worrying development?

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: I don’t see it as a worrying development at all. I think that it’s good. It’s good that these people go to Pakistan, talk in Pakistan and come back. They need the certificate of Pakistan in Kashmir, to propagate their ideas. So I think that it’s a moral victory for the Hurriyat.

Karan Thapar:Are you saying Mehbooba needs Zardari’s certificate?

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: I think she needs Pakistan’s certificate. That’s what she has said because… if you look at (the) events... (after) she has come from Pakistan, she is going to every election rally and saying that I… went to Pakistan, and I spoke this and I got this. So this says that even for the mainstream politics the ashirwad (blessing) or the support of Pakistan is very important.

Karan Thapar:You will go to Pakistan in June, you will be warmly welcomed and the rhetoric will be effusive. But are you confident that behind it Zardari and Gilani have not changed course in such a way that the importance of Hurriyat is diminished and Kashmir itself is moved from centre stage to a side subject?

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Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: I am absolutely confident that no government in Pakistan can sideline the Kashmir issue. As long as the Kashmir issue is alive in the hearts and minds of Kashmiris as well as in the hearts and minds of people in Pakistan, no government can afford (to do) it.

Karan Thapar:On May 21, you invited the Prime Ministers of India and Pakistan to hold a summit first in Srinagar and then there after another one in Muzaffarabad. Was this a joke or a desperate attempt to make the Hurriyat relevant?

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: In all sincerity we believe that we have to move forward in terms of Kashmir issue why not do it from Kashmir. Both the countries are saying we want Kashmiri involvement and both want to talk to Kashmiris.

Karan Thapar: But isn’t that a case of the tail wagging the dog?

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: I don’t think so. I think, in all honesty, that it is a workable solution. The Prime Minister of India has been saying that India wants a roundtable conference on Kashmir, so has Prime Minister of Pakistan. I think it will be an excellent idea to have one session in Srinagar and one in Muzaffarabad.

Karan Thapar:Have you had any response from either Delhi or Islamabad?

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: We have not approached them officially yet but we will be soon.

Karan Thapar:Why haven’t you approached them? What is taking you so long?

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: We want see what is the mood in Delhi.

Karan Thapar: You mean you want to choose the timing of the approach so that you don’t get a no.

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: We want to see some work is done. We don’t want to seem it to be just a statement. We want it to be considered seriously in terms of moving forward.

Karan Thapar:What about the fact that both Delhi and Islamabad are in their own language are indicating that whilst they are happy to consult the Kashmiris they are not going to give you a veto. This means they will sort out Kashmir on their own terms and you will only have a side role.

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: We have been seeing India and Pakistan talking over the years, and now it’s a fact that Kashmir can not be resolved bilaterally. You have to involve the third party, which is Kashmir. Shimla, Tashkent, Agra, New Delhi, these are all agreements which have failed primarily because Kashmiris were never consulted and involved.

Karan Thapar:You say they must involve a third party but the problem is that Gilani and Zardari are not prepared to give Kashmiris the veto and they are publicly saying so, they are also supporting New Delhi’s reluctance to bring you into the picture.

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: I don’t think so. We have never wanted a veto power.

Karan Thapar: So, you just want to be consulted?

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: We want them to not just consult the leadership in Kashmir but involve them in what Hurriyat Conference suggested a triangular dialogue in which India talks to Kashmir, Pakistan talks to Kashmir and both countries talk to each other.

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Karan Thapar: Talking is one thing but if they don’t heed you or don’t give you a veto, then what is the point of it?

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: That it why things have not moved; because they have not taken Kashmiris seriously.

Karan Thapar: The language being used by Pakistan now seems to suggest slowly and steadily they may be coming around to the Indian position that Kashmir is important but it is not the core issue. Zardari and Gilani may call it the core issue but they are not behaving as if it is and the next stage may well be stop calling it a core issue.

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: I don’t think so. Kashmir is not something, which Pakistan and India can wish away. We have a situation were hundreds and thousands of troops present on the ground; people are getting killed. Yes, violence has come down but militancy and violence is not the only issue. The Kashmir issue is more than violence.

Karan Thapar: It is not that they wish to wish it away, they can’t and they know it. They want to sort it out in their own terms which may not suit you and Kashmiris?

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: They have not put down any terms as such. We are going to Pakistan; we will talk to the Pakistan government; we will talk to the Indian government. In 2004, we started a dialogue with Delhi and we came up very seriously and very openly. We said we are ready to discuss suggestions and proposals provided Delhi takes some measures.

What has happened is that it has been a one-way process. There is flexibility in Pakistan, which is needed. There is flexibility in the Kashmiri leadership (because) I feel that we are the ones who are suffering (so) there has to be flexibility from our side. But you don’t see any flexibility from the Indian side.

Karan Thapar:Aren’t you worried that the flexibility from the Pakistani side is actually feeding into India’s interests?

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: In my honest opinion, for the first time in terms of politics Pakistan has played its cards very well. They have said we want Kashmiri interest to be paramount.

Karan Thapar:They haven’t. Gilani said the opposite to me.

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: If you look what the governments of Pakistan have been saying in terms of Kashmiri aspiration they want Kashmiris to be at the top.

Karan Thapar:But no veto.

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: We don’t veto. I will quote the statement Musharraf said to me in person.

Karan Thapar: But he no longer counts.

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: I think he counts, as he is still the President. He still commands respect among people and, in terms of Kashmir policy, I would say that I believe personally… if we have to move forward it is in and around the four-point proposal… (of) Musharraf.

Karan Thapar:All the signs from Pakistan suggestion that you are going to get a warm welcome but you are not going to get much more. Delhi isn’t even talking to you at the moment. Don’t you think the world and circumstances are moving against you?

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: I don’t think so. I think what counts is the situation on the ground. I think Kashmiris are determined on the ground. There is lot of faith (in) the tremendous sacrifices they have given. A hundred thousand people have been lost in the last 20 years. Yes, we can forgive but we cannot forget.

Karan Thapar:And that faith and determination keeps you going.

Mirwaiz Umer Farooq: It does. It is the only thing we have; it is the only thing which will keep us going.

Karan Thapar: Mirwaiz Farooq, a pleasure talking to you.