IPL has made cricket just business: MS Gill

Is the IPL a blessing or could it turn out into an unrecognized problem? That's the key issue Karan Thapar explored with the Sports Minister, Manohar Singh Gill, on Devil's Advocate.

Karan Thapar:Minister, the third series of the IPL is underway; do you share the view that it has transformed India's love of cricket into an obsession?

M S Gill: You know, I've not spoken for two years on cricket though I was very much a cricketer. I've followed it all my life; even now I keep track of what's going on. Certainly there are big questions which have a bearing on what is happening for the last some years through IPL to cricket - which is larger than IPL, which is longer and which is perpetual like other games. Certainly, I think there are a number of questions.

Karan Thapar: I want very much to explore the questions IPL has raised in your mind. But before I go there am I therefore, right in assuming that you are concerned about the impact IPL is having on sports and on cricket in particular?

M S Gill: Well, on cricket certainly and indirectly on sports also.

Karan Thapar: Let's then come to the issues IPL has raised in your mind. There is a view that IPL is using cricket to promote entertainment at the cost of the spirit, some would even say the rules, of the game. Do you share that view?

M S Gill: Yes. I do look at that. Take for example that there is a commercial league in football in Europe in every state but here there is one fact which should concern most of us, who focus on this thing that those who control the game, that is BCCI, they have a direct interest as owners of teams, as people who have a direct benefit from it and this is something very dangerous. Because the rules for example we see T20 now even within that IPL they have changed the rules again and again. They have also used the rules against another rival league. But the controlling body has to be for India, for cricket for the long term. It has to be totally uninvolved.

Karan Thapar: Let's tease out what you mean when you say that the BCCI has changed the rules of the game. Are you alluding to the fact that the delicate fine balance in cricket between batsman and bowler has been distorted or even damaged?

M S Gill: Oh Totally! I was a bowler and I wrote articles sometime long ago saying that it's no good being a bowler in India. But now what the IPL is doing - the bowler is only the victim and the bat; now you have mongoose bat. I look forward to a cobra bat. The boundaries have been shortened I think, as I hear. The whole thing is to entertain the masses. The bowler is just an instrument for this promotion.

Karan Thapar: So the first point you are making is that the balance between the bowler and the batsman has been distorted. The bowler now simply throws the ball; all the advantages are with the batsman?

M S Gill: As a cricketer I think so. I can also see why. IPL is fundamentally a business, television and advertising in a compact to used a game as an instrument for benefit and profit.

Karan Thapar: So in the interest of business and advertising and television you are saying to me that the spirit of cricket has been damaged if not destroyed?

M S Gill: Well, what I am saying is therefore that those who are to make rules for everyone, for all aspects of the game and keeping in view the interest of the game and the country and the long term, have to be totally apart from being involved in IPL in any way.

Karan Thapar: So you are also saying because the BCCI is a beneficiary of IPL, if the BCCI agrees to change the rules of cricket to benefit IPL there is a conflict of interest inherent in that.

M S Gill: What I have noticed, and I am sure everybody else has, (that) major office bearers are on both sides.

Karan Thapar: Office bearers of the BCCI are on both sides?

M S Gill: Office bearers of BCCI and maybe owners of teams.

Karan Thapar: This underlines the conflict of interest.

M S Gill: Obviously, I think so.

Karan Thapar: In other words you have grave questions about the fact that the boundaries have been reduced in IPL, that batsmen are allowed to use what are called Mongoose bats. In fact the balance between the batsman and the bowler has been damaged. You have grave reservations?

M S Gill: You see, there are many things. Even the seasons have been changed. Now this has to be accommodated. Today I find that they are concerned on will India in the T20 World Cup have any role? People will not be that keen to play for the national team, as they will be for a commercial team.

Karan Thapar: Are you saying to me that in fact by changing the rules of the game and therefore damaging the spirit of the game IPL has actually damaged the sportsmanship that should be inherent in any game and in particular cricket?

M S Gill: Sportsmanship in what way I can't say but the fact of the matter is the attitude, the mental attitude of the players is obviously modified by the requirements and by the enticements of the game.

Karan Thapar: Let's move this discussion to a different level. Given your serious concerns about IPL, and given the impact it has on the attitude of the players and the enormous money it attracts is IPL detrimental to the interests of five-day cricket and one-day cricket in India?

M S Gill: Possibly Yes. The five-day test is under challenge and you see nobody turns up for it, crowds have already been moved away. Even the One-day, 50 over is reduced to T20. I sometimes say jokingly that we'll go to T5 and then T1 and then half an over.

Karan Thapar: So the IPL mentality is working against the sort of attitude and staying power you need for a five-day test?

M S Gill: Well, its focus is earning money. You see now two new teams have been bought and one of the gentlemen who has bought it is all over TV and very clearly when they tried to point to him, like you are trying to point my nose in that direction, he said, look this is business, we bought it for business and our job is to earn from it.

Karan Thapar: IPL has converted cricket to business and sport is just a side-factor?

M S Gill: It is an instrument. No, cricket is an instrument of business.

Karan Thapar: So cricket is an instrument of business?

M S Gill: I think so.

Karan Thapar: Cricket is not a sport any longer in the strict sense?

M S Gill: Well, we'll see how long and what happens? Because I also see the cruelty of Industry and Business and I have been secretary Industry for India for four long years.

Karan Thapar: So there could be a backlash?

M S Gill: The moment they see the TRP going in some other direction for any reason and these people are fickle and they have their own view of life, they could quickly walk away from a lot of this and leave these people neither high nor low.

Karan Thapar: So this is a double-edged kiss in a sense?

M S Gill: Might go to another game? Who knows hockey?

Karan Thapar: In the meantime Sahara, which has been a sponsor of the Indian cricket team for five years, has its sponsorship ending in June. Now as you know recently they bought the most expensive IPL team and when interviewed by 'The Economic Times' Subroto Roy was asked, whether he would continue with his sponsorship of the Indian National team and his reply was, 'we haven't taken a call yet, we will decide later.' Would you be concerned if Sahara were to opt out of sponsoring Indian cricket?

M S Gill: Well, I am not at the moment concerned with who sponsors Indian cricket or if anybody does, but the point is I did note what he said and what impact it will have on the situation we are all dealing with. I am not dealing with it. Of course I have noted it?

Karan Thapar: So this is another sense in which IPL will end up damaging Indian cricket?

M S Gill: Well, certainly, Test cricket and India's position in it will be affected.

Karan Thapar: Now, two issues that have come up around IPL. First is that IPL is not just hugely popular, it is as you know a very successful money spinning commercial venture. Should it therefore qualify for a reduction or in fact a cancellation of entertainment tax?

M S Gill: No, No. I am very clear on that. This is a poor country. I never forget that. There is a huge deficit in the budget even this year and the Finance Minister is struggling to cover it and this idea of letting off tax is frankly not known in England, not known in America. The President Mr Barack Obama can't let off anybody of any tax; sport or no sport. And this should be, and then when business is earning it in the shape of these teams and whatever the structure, I think the legitimate tax should be taken and should be used for the country maybe even for sports, other sports.

Karan Thapar: So your advice to any State Government that is under pressure to waive Entertainment taxes is it's a mistake don't do it.

M S Gill: Yes. I had a group of ministers two days ago for the Commonwealth Games and naturally these kind of discussions that you are having with me came up and the group was all for what I am saying. Well they triggered me into talking to you.

Karan Thapar: So the whole group of ministers is against entertainment taxes? So its not just your view, the whole group of ministers is against it?

M S Gill: Maybe.

Karan Thapar: What about something else? IPL also requires enormous security. In several cities where IPL matches happen hundreds maybe thousands of policemen are deployed. Given that IPL and BCCI are enormously cash rich should they be required to pay for their own security requirements?

M S Gill: They should pay the police and the Home Minister. I saw that last year the Home Minister was not able to-- Did not agree, for greater national needs, and therefore they had to go elsewhere. And certainly I know the British system and you know it that even if there is a personal security problem, they charge you if you want a special constable. Now this is all of the police in 30 cities for two months and they are going to keep on making it longer and longer and (the police) is involved only in the stadium. The city is unguarded or less guarded. I think they should pay for it, so that the police can manage.

Karan Thapar: One last question on the IPL before I take a break. There was a lot of concern when the auction happened in January that the Pakistani players have been mistreated. They were invited to be part of the auction, they were listed and then not a single team bid for them. Many people said this was unwarranted and some even said this was humiliating. Do you think that was rather an unfortunate episode?

M S Gill: Well, the only thing I know is that it is unfortunate that it happened. And I like to see all players who can play playing. But what are the reasons I really don't know.

Karan Thapar: I should point out to you Dr Gill that so far in this interview you have said things about IPL, about its impact on cricket, about its impact on the national team that many people would find controversial and some will even dispute. Are you ready for criticism?

M S Gill: Since I have said something, so be it, but everybody is free to hold his own views. I just have one view. This is just one individual.

Karan Thapar: And you felt the need to express this view? You believe that a balance is needed in the way people think about it?

M S Gill: Well you have been chasing me and I thought its time to express it. Others have asked me and I just told you.

Karan Thapar: I am grateful that you decided to break your silence with me. Let's take a break at that point. I want to come back and in the limited time available talk to you about the impact that cricket has on other sports in India. Does the success of cricket in fact mean that other sports are neglected?

Dr Gill, there is a view that cricket, both because of its enormous popular following but also because of the huge sums of money it attracts, is retarding the development of other sports in India. Do you share that view?

M S Gill: Oh certainly, there is something happening which is adverse to the rest of them. For example, most of the newspapers or even the television channels in the news, they give three pages of the newspaper or most of the time to cricket. I want to take football, the people's game, back to the semi-finals of the Olympics. They were there once in 1956. But (now) they don't get a word edgeways. Whether you have a World Cup going on here of hockey or anything (there's no coverage). Mind you hockey is an exciting game and one day these people will go to hockey to make money and maybe leave this one.

Karan Thapar: That day sadly seems very far away. At the moment today cricket has pushed out interest in and funding and sponsorship for almost any other game?

M S Gill: Yes, at the moment perhaps that maybe so.

Karan Thapar: Let me give you a couple of examples. In 2007 when the Indian cricket team won the T20 World Cup every single member of the team got Rs 80 lakh from the BCCI, they got a further Rs 25 lakh from Sahara and they got substantial sums of money from their respective state governments. Yet days earlier when the hockey team won the Asia Cup, they got less than 1 lakh each from the Federation and they were ignored by everyone. How do you respond to that?

M S Gill: Well, I noticed all that and I don't like it as a man who is in favour of sports and people's sports. And certainly I notice that and I also say that the state government or any government have no right to just go on gifting away money and plots unlimited and particularly in this kind of distortion of focus because it is public money. And while I am happy to have them (cricketers) get rich but to make one set of people richer and richer and richer? What about the other games and then you keep on screaming why hockey or football won't do better?

Karan Thapar: You spoke about state governments, let me give you the example of the Karnataka government and I will take the case of Pankaj Advani. He is a double World champion in billiards and snooker. Yet when the Karnataka government was asked why they hadn't felicitated him, the government spokesmen actually said that the government would consider giving him 1 lakh if he applied for it! Do you think that was not just silly but humiliating for Pankaj Advani?

M S Gill: I do feel sad about this and I do expect public authorities, elected authorities in states or anywhere, to, I think, be more responsive to a fair treatment of Indian sportsmen and Indian people.

Karan Thapar: Non-cricket sportsmen are not being treated fairly?

M S Gill: Why are they going commercial? Why are they totally rolled over by the publicity through the TV or the press? I don't see any reason.

Karan Thapar: The sad part Dr Gill is that one could even say that the Central Government here in Delhi often discriminates. Let me give you an example. After the Beijing Olympics three cricketers Virender Sehwag, Harbhajan Singh and Dhoni have been given Padmashrees. But Susheel Kumar- the only Indian to win an Olympic medal in wrestling for over half a century, was ignored and continues to be ignored?

M S Gill: I'm not happy at that. You must understand and people must understand the correct position. The man you've named, we recommended. I normally don't say this. And I focus on all these people who deserve. We have also a so-called technical expertise to make that judgment. But I am sorry though I have represented but the committees that select in the other ministry they take names direct and we are not even consulted or our view taken, which, I think, is wrong. They must take our view. They can't reject our view. So what happened I have noted.

Karan Thapar: But you are saying something that is even more important. Even at the level of the determining committee that decides to award the Padma Awards wrestlers are downgraded, cricketers are upgraded. Even there the discrimination continues?

M S Gill: Well, what you are saying is a truth, it did happen and certainly this ministry was not recommending cricketers one after the other because you have to look at the broad picture. What you argue I also felt.

Karan Thapar: We have just two minutes left for the end of this interview. Given that the BCCI is earning money more than they know what to do with - they have ended up earning over Rs 3000 crore just by selling two IPL team - do you think there should be a requirement on BCCI to set aside a fixed percentage of its funds to assist other sports?

M S Gill: I don't know if there should be a requirement. You are asking for a Government regulation. That's something I wouldn't off-hand say. They are giving us some money but not of a large amount considering what they have and what they could give. I would like them to contribute much more. I would also like Indian business; you know everybody is publishing the Forbes list of the richest Indians to a poor country. All right we feel happy that he has got it, I haven't got it. But I expect them to show greater charity, their trusts get big image but not that much money which I think could be far, far more.

Karan Thapar: So, you are saying both to BCCI but also to individual Indian businessmen, particularly those in the Forbes list, that they have a moral duty to put money into Indian sport?

M S Gill: They could all take up one game each. For them to say I will spend Rs 20 crore a year and Rs 10 crore is no big deal.

Karan Thapar: When you make this request or plead with them what's the response?

M S Gill: I'm making it (here) and you are obviously going to be seen. Whether like it or not they are going to do it.

Karan Thapar: So, you are making a public request to BCCI and Indian business; bank roll Indian Sport?

M S Gill: They've got lots of surpluses and I don't want to name anyone but our people. I am happy they've reached where they have. Why don't they now loosen their purse and take Indian sport up because they also need to build their image by us winning gold medals?

Karan Thapar: Dr Gill, a pleasure talking to you.

M S Gill: Thank you.

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