Click to play videoIndian aviation is “hundred percent safe” and people must not “lose faith in their own system”, says Civil Aviation Minister Praful Patel after the crash of an Air India plane in Mangalore last week . Patel told Karan Thapar on Devil's Advocate Indian aviation regulators were the best in the world and wouldn’t compromise on safety at any cost. “These are difficult times but at the same time, let us not make it an issue where people lose faith in their own system,” he said.
Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil's Advocate. After the Mangalore crash, how safe is aviation in India? That's the key issue I shall explore today with Civil Aviation Minister Praful Patel.
Minister, let's start with the issues that arise after the Mangalore crash and let's start with the runway itself. At 8,000 feet, it's categorized as code for runway under Annexure 14 guidelines of the International Civil Aviation Organization, and those same guidelines stipulate that it should have a spill-over of at least 240 metres. In this instance the spill-over is just 90 meters, which is one third of what is required. Doesn't that mean that in an emergency this runway is inherently risky?
Praful Patel: No, let's be categorical about runway safety, the Mangalore runway, per se, complies with all the guidelines stipulated by ICAO.
Karan Thapar: Except for an emergency situation.
Praful Patel: No, no, I do concede that it is a critical airport. There is no question, nobody wants to build an airport on a hilltop if there is land available elsewhere. It's even more expensive, even from a commercial point of view.
Karan Thapar: But minister you have another alternative. You can shorten the runway to 7,500 feet and increase the spill-over.
Praful Patel: That is exactly the point I am making. It is that instead of 7,500 feet -- which was the minimum mandated -- it is 8,000 feet, so there is a 500 feet extra along with 90 meters spill-over area. And the threshold of any runway is based on the available runway length.
Karan Thapar: Can I put it like this? This is the second time in under 30 years that you have had a similar accident in Mangalore. Given that, will the government now not agree to increase the spill-over from 90 to 240 meters and bring it into conformity with the International Civil Aviation Organization's emergency requirements, because everyone says that you need that 240, do it.
Praful Patel: No, certainly whatever that has to be learnt from the Mangalore crash and has to be improved upon, will be done.
Karan Thapar: So you are saying that you have an open mind about this?
Praful Patel: Yes, absolutely.
Karan Thapar: So, it is not ruled out that the spill-over cannot be extended?
Praful Patel: In fact, let me be very honest, Karan. Mangalore airport had a runway of just under 6,000 feet -- this is a new runway which has been built, so you can imagine that with 6,000 feet the risk of such similar aircraft which were landing earlier were tremendous.
Karan Thapar: Except minister, in an emergency a spill-over for runway requires 240.
Praful Patel: I appreciate your concern I am not trying to defend.
Karan Thapar: You have an open mind about extending it?
Praful Patel: In fact, we have already taken a decision to extend the runway from 8,000 to 9,000 feet.
Karan Thapar: And what will the spill-over be?
Praful Patel: In that 9,000 feet, all such factors of spill-over area and other concerns raised by, if at all there are, I am not an expert. But if there are any concerns, and I repeat that I am not an expert and I can't be but I can also say with a sense of responsibility that if there is any learning out of this Mangalore incident, if there are any mandatory requirements that are not fulfilled, in not only Mangalore but any runway across the length and breadth of India, they shall be corrected.
Karan Thapar: I am delighted to hear you say that. Let me then raise another concern about the Mangalore runway brought to public attention by Captain Ranganathan, one of India's foremost experts in flight safety.
He says that the aiming point of the Mangalore runway, which is where the under carriage touches down, is not in accordance with ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization) stipulations. He says it should be 400 meters from the start of the runway for landing purposes, it's only 300 meters. Will you also attend to that, because that’s another factor that could lead in an emergency to an accident?
Praful Patel: Karan, I do concede that if there is any shortcoming it would be rectified, but I am not again I repeat a technical person. But the other side also, let me be honest, I am not talking of the Mangalore runway, now everything can be certainly looked at much more microscopically and will be done, but the fact remains that most of all that the work that is being done in India and in fact I can't say, even most would be wrong, all the work that we do I am sure that the airport authorities or any other organization in the ministry right from the DGCA (Director General of Civil Aviation ) to the air traffic services all do comply with international civil aviation organization guidelines.
There may be a minima and there may be a maxima, I do not know whether somebody is trying to point the maxima or the minima, please again, I am not going to be drawn into a debate on technical issues because I am not a technical person
Karan Thapar: I don’t want to draw you into a debate on technical issues. All I want to hear from you is that you have an open mind to listen to people like Captain Ranganathan, who, when they point out shortfalls in the runway and they are acknowledged international experts in the subject, you are saying to me that all shortfalls will be looked into.
Praful Patel: I will give you one more example of what are open minds.
Karan Thapar: No, but just say yes or no.
Praful Patel: Yes, and I give you one more further point. I am adding a further point which will be of interest not only to you but to the people who watch this show that post the Mangalore crash we had a very high-level meeting with all the regulatory authorities and all the organizations connected with civil aviation, where I chaired a meeting and we have formed and decided that next week maybe the first meeting of Civil Aviation Safety Advisory Council, which will consist of eminent people of various disciplines of aviation so that all aspects regarding safety, technical and otherwise will be taken into account and the DGCA will hold regular consultations and these gentlemen, whosoever they maybe from various, as I said, disciplines in this sector can give their best inputs so that we will be able to take corrective actions
Karan Thapar: Once again the audience will be hugely reassured to hear this. Let me then sum up this section about the runway by putting one last question to you.
There are many people who have said that given at the moment, the spill-over is shorter than it should be -- it is only one third that the ICAO recommends -- and given that there are concerns and allegations about the aiming point, should not Mangalore airport in addition have an approach radar, so that when planes lock into the ILS (Instrument landing systems ) system their heights, their descend and their speed can still be monitored by the ATC. It would increase safety and diminish the risk of a third accident
Praful Patel: I think that is already being contemplated and it will be done at the earliest.
Karan Thapar: I am delighted to hear that.
Praful Patel: But as I said that I am not only talking or restricting myself to only Mangalore. I have already given directions that it should apply to each and every airport in our country.
Karan Thapar: So there could be approach radars across the country?
Praful Patel: Whatever is required as a minimum or a maximum, I would say equipment or a guide to the pilots and to all the operators, they should be provided at the earliest
Karan Thapar: This will be very reassuring to the people. Let’s then come to the second issue that arises straight out of the Mangalore crash: foreign pilots. I readily concede that they have very impressive hours of flying experience to their credit but the critical question is do they have sufficient hours of experience on the specific type of plane they would have to fly when they join Air India ?
Praful Patel: Well, I will be very categorical about pilots. I don't want to talk about foreign or Indian pilots, after all a pilot is only allowed to fly aircraft as long as she or he is type rated on that type and I can tell you that most pilots, I have no statistics right now to give you. Therefore I shall not stand on my final word. But I can say that at least in this case the pilot had more than 2,700 hours type rated pilot-in-command on this type of aircraft.
Karan Thapar: Minister, let me tell you why I asked you this particular questions about the number of hours on specific type of aircraft, because in 2006, the DGCA reduced the stipulation from 500 hours on the specific type of aircraft to just 100 and in contrast, Emirates in Singapore require expat pilots have to have up to 3,000 hours minimum on the specific type of aircraft. That's why people say should not India re-look at its stipulation and increase from a 100 back to 500 and even a 1,000 (hours).
Panful Patel: Again, I am not a technical person, but I would trust the judgment of the regulator -- that is the DGCA -- to take corrective action if necessary?
Karan Thapar: But people question the DGCA? Are you being too trusting?
Praful Patel: Where is the question? Somebody has to be trusted or not. Can you and me do the function of DGCA? They are specialists; they have been in existence from the time civil aviation started in this country and they been doing their job and quite satisfactorily in spite of certain things which can happen to any regulator anywhere in the world. You mean to say in the best of countries any mishap does not take place?
Karan Thapar: But minister, my point is simple a one.
Praful Patel: I am not justifying anything.
Karan Thapar: Should you reverse the reduction from 500 to a 100 and go back to 500 (hours)?
Praful Patel: Let the civil aviation regulator, that is the DGCA, and in consultation, as I said, with all these stake holders in future take appropriate decisions. I am not going to tell them to do this or that.
Please do not create a scare or a panic by raising issues like this without any basis of justifying what we are or you are trying to say.
Karan Thapar: I am not creating a scare, I am only raising issues.
Praful Patel: Shall I say one thing that supposing there is a new type of aircraft, say a 777-- is a brand new aircraft, which flies anywhere in the world is launched by a manufacturer. Where are you going to get a pilot who is 3,000 hours type rated on that aircraft? You mean to say that the flight will never make it's maiden flight.
Karan Thapar: Truth is that you won't get a pilot who has sufficient hours of experience stipulated to a certain minimum for a new aircraft, that has never been on the market before, but it is also the case that any pilot who flies that new aircraft will have to have done certain hours of experience on it learning how to do it, probably taught by Boeing or Airbus themselves.
Praful Patel: Yeah, but it is not going to be 2-3,000 hours.
Karan Thapar: But the main thing is you have indicated once again is you have an open mind.
Praful Patel: Absolutely, I am not even discussing whether we shall do it or not, we will do whatever is necessary.
Karan Thapar: Once again that's very reassuring. Let’s then come to the third big issue raised by the Mangalore crash: it's to do with pilot fatigue. Now to be specific the flight and duty time limitations applied by DGCA go back to 1992 and they only take into account hours spent in command or hours spent on duty.
The Indian Commercial Pilot’s Association says that they don't take into account the number of overall hours a pilot has been awake. Can you ask the DGCA to look at the ICPA concern and at least consider taking into account the overall hours a pilot is awake?
Praful Patel: Sure they can discuss it, absolutely, see, they are equal stake holders we are not interested in mandating.
Karan Thapar: But can you ask the DGCA to specifically look into this?
Praful Patel: Of course, I will ask that.
Karan Thapar: Shall I tell you why I raised this question? Increasingly, from newspaper reports fatigue is a problem -- you know and I know that in June 2008, Air India 612 coming from Dubai to Bombay, over flew Bombay because the crew were alleged to be asleep in the cockpit.
It's alleged that something similar happened in April 2009 when an Air India flight from Tokyo bypassed Korean and Chinese air space without responding to radio contact because again, the crew was asleep and most importantly, it has been said in the papers that since May 2007 you have had 9 runway over runs and 4 confusions and safety experts say that at least 50 per cent of those are attribute to fatigue. Are you as conscious of the fear of pilot fatigue as the population seems to be today?
Praful Patel: No, let's put it this way. Fundamentally, civil aviation in India is safe. Let’s not put a scare and put every single issue into a perspective which scares people and makes people suddenly wary of the safety standards.
Karan Thapar: Within that, will you look into fatigue?
Praful Patel: But, having said that, yes absolutely. Karan, where is the reason, you see after the Mangalore incident--its not just Mangalore, any small or big incident which happens in our country -- I am very anguished. Please don’t think that we sleep over or we feel happy to just ignore any advice.
Karan Thapar: So do you look at things like flight and duty time limitations? Will you go into the civil aviation requirements that determine and regulate fatigue?
Praful Patel: It is to be done in a very, very transparent but a framework which is acceptable internationally.
Karan Thapar: One last question.
Praful Patel: Aviation has to be done in a framework which is to be accepted internationally. Please remember one thing, Indian pilots also fly international airlines.
Karan Thapar: But they then fly under different regulations set differently by different authorities. That’s the difference.
Praful Patel: But how do you also presume that Indian regulation of the DGCA is completely a stand-alone regulation. I do not agree there. Please do not take away the hard work also done by other agencies.
Karan Thapar: You just raised an issue. Let me answer the issue you raised. One reason why people, in fact, are anxious or apprehensive is because airline safety experts have pointed in Indian papers that in 2007 the DGCA changed the civil aviation requirements, taking into account many of these concerns that I have just discussed, but exactly a year later, it was asked under specific instructions of your ministry to put them in abeyance and the allegation is that airline owners came to you and put pressure and their commercial interests trumped safety.
Praful Patel: Let’s not stretch this argument beyond any justification. The fact is that the DGCA can look at all these aspects absolutely meaningfully and should look at it and will look at it. I just want to say that as far as this particular crash and tragic accident in Mangalore, I don't think any of these concerns, at least to the extent of this incident, hold valid, but let us not ignore the fact that safety is paramount and therefore if at all, as I said from the Mangalore crash if there are any lessons to be learnt we shall keep an open mind and not only an open mind, we will act with alacrity.
Karan Thapar: Let's then Minister, broaden our discussion and ask a question that's been written about by Captain Ranganathan the day after the Mangalore crash in ‘The Hindu’. He says safety standards in Indian aviation have been on the wane for the last six years. I want to ask you bluntly, is aviation in India becoming more risky and less safe?
Praful Patel: No, I think, Indian aviation is safe and aviation per se can only be either 100 per cent safe or zero. So lets now get into…any error in aviation can lead to what happened at Mangalore, now whether it was what the attribute of the crash is will only be known after the enquiry, but certainly aviation is not a game of chance.
Karan Thapar: Let me tell you why I asked the question. Is it not the case, that at least two leading international organizations in the last four years, the Federal Aviation Authority and the International Civil Aviation Organization have done audits of Indian safety and both have raised worrying questions?
Praful Patel: Absolutely wrong! That is what you get some information from where I don't know!
Karan Thapar: Did not the FAA, in February-March 2009, not only considered the question of downgrading India from category 1 to category 2?
Praful Patel: No, but you do not know the reasons and you also do not know that FAA and ICAO both have certified India absolutely as 100 per cent safe.
Karan Thapar: So these reports in the papers are misleading?
Praful Patel: Yes, they are misleading.
Karan Thapar: Okay, then let me check and test your confidence with two quick questions. First of all, hours after the Mangalore crash when the ILS system was damaged, Mangalore airport reopened for use after sunset using non-precision facilities. Was that wise and safe?
Praful Patel: No, no, let's not take it to the extreme, the ILS was not damaged.
Karan Thapar: I thought the positioning antenna was hit by the wing of the plane.
Praful Patel: No, no, but certainly under extreme circumstances, the airport could not have been closed eternally. There were passengers.
Karan Thapar: But this is that very evening, after sunset, hours later, in the dark
Praful Patel: I think, I do not want to speak about any particular....
Karan Thapar: So there was no risk here?
Praful Patel: I do not think so because that is what I have been told. I cannot stand and tell you that every day at which airport what is happening, but certainly at Mangalore, post the crash, few hours the runway and the airport was closed. Certainly it had to be opened at some time, I am sure they would have taken a judicious decision to open in a calibrated fashion keeping certainly safety parameters in Mangalore especially in mind.
Karan Thapar: All right, I will take your word for that, others may have their doubts and questions but that's for them to address themselves. Let's then come to the, second issue. Days before Mangalore, is it not the case, that an Air India A320 airbus started taxiing in Muscat when it was still connected to the ground unit for power and secondly, instead of changing the pilot who must have been shaken by the experience he was permitted to fly, he burst a couple of tyres and had to abort the take off. Was that not risky?
Praful Patel: Well, I am not fully aware or conversant with the incident, so I shall not comment.
Karan Thapar: But these incidents apart, you end by saying to the audience that airline safety in India and aviation safety in India is perfectly one hundred percent okay.
Praful Patel: Absolutely. As I said let's not scare people away, these are difficult times but at the same time, let us not make it an issue where people lose faith in their own system.
Karan Thapar: Minister, I will let you have the last word. A pleasure talking to you.
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