Devil's Advocate: Khurshid on Vande Mataram

Was the Home Minister right to address the general session of the Jamiat-e-Ulema Hind? Or was it a way of covering up this Government's neglect of the real problems the Muslim community faces? Karan Thapar discussed these questions with Minority Affairs Minister Salman Khurshid.

Karan Thapar: Salman Khurshid, let's start with the Home Minister's decision to address the general session of the Jamiat-e-Ulema Hind.

Given that the Indian Home Minister don't address the Catholic Bishops conference, the Sikh sangat, the Sadhus samellans, is it fitting that he should have addressed 10,000 ulema?

Salman Khurshid: Well, I am not sure on my facts about the Indian ministers not attending other religious gatherings, but I certainly know that as far as the Jamiat-e-Ulema Hind is concerned, our senior leaders have been to their conventions in the past.

Karan Thapar: But not as seniors ministers, may be as leaders of the party. There is a distinction between party and the Government. This is the Home Minister of a secular Government, suddenly addressing 10,000 ulema.

Salman Khurshid: Well, they may be ulema, they may be ordinary workers, they may be ordinary people. But this is an important segment of our society. There has to be a dialogue and I think many of their concerns are often directed not as most of us but at the Home Minister, concerns about the security and they did, in fact take a very positive position on terrorism and I think the Home minister felt that he should go and encourage them obviously.

Karan Thapar: And they took it in a very strange, if not a questionable position on Vande Mataram, but I will come to that in a moment's time. And they did that on the very day the Home Minister went.

One small question on that. Is a Home Minister's intelligence so poor, so abysmally lacking that he had no knowledge that he was going to be embarrassed, almost sabotaged by this resolution?

Salman Khurshid: Well, you know that there it's a huge gathering and lot of little resolutions are passed and for the Home Minister once he's got his programme fixed, to call his programme off and then revise everything just because there is information that such a resolution is being passed is one thing. But certainly from what I understand he was not fully aware that such a resolution has been passed.

Karan Thapar: So his intelligence is so poor he had no idea of what sort of ambush he was working into? Or if, he was aware he didn't want to change it because he thought it could be a discourtesy.

Salman Khurshid: It could be.

Karan Thapar: It's a bizarre situation.

Salman Khurshid: Listen...listen, there could be many reasons. You have to take a call when you are in the hot seat. Will your going be counter-productive or your not going to be counter-productive? He has taken a call and he made a decision.

Karan Thapar: He has taken the wrong call, he embarrassed the Government, he embarrassed himself and now he is bending over backwards to find explanations.

Salman Khurshid: I don't think so. I mean I was asked the same day and I took a position.

Karan Thapar: And you didn't go that's the important thing.

Salman Khurshid: No.

Karan Thapar: You didn't attend the Jamiat, although you are Minority Affairs Minister and you perhaps had a responsibility to go. You didn't do for that very reason.

Salman Khurshid: There could be many reason for my not going but let me just put one fact straight: this is not the Jamiat, there are two factions of the Jamiat. Mr Arshad Madani, was the president. His brother became the president after him and remains the president of one faction of the Jamiat. His son Mr Mehmod Madni, who is the general secretary or an important person in this Jamiat, holds this faction together. Now to say this is the view of the Jamiat, I think it is difficult to accept it.

Karan Thapar: Even more listening to your explanation, there is a reason for your not going. Where the Jamiat itself is split, the Home Minister should not be taking sides with one or the other. Look up at what he has ended up doing.

He has ended up giving prominence to the most conservative, the most insular elements of the Muslim community at the cost of the liberal, the modern, and the forward-thinking. Is that what a secular Home Minister of a democratic country should be doing?

Salman Khurshid: You get this out of your system. Did he endorse anything they said? The answer is no. But he did encourage them on their position, on terrorism and he did say that what you have said on terrorism applies not only to Muslims alone but to everybody in this country. And I think that's a wonderful thing he did.

Karan Thapar: Let's move beyond the Home Minister because in a sense, he is only a reflection of a bigger problem and I and it's the bigger problem I want to come to.

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Why does your Government--whether it is the Home Minister or whether it is the other elements of the Government--continually identify Indian Muslims in terms of their religion rather than in terms of their appalling economic circumstances, their poor political representation and their bad schooling facilities. Why don't you look at those instead?

Salman Khurshid: Listen, this would be right, if we hadn't work so hard on such a committee, if we hadn't actually set up such a committee, if we hadn't accepted the recommendation of such a committee and we weren't now, at this very moment, in the process of setting up the equal opportunity commission.

Karan Thapar: You know, this is very interesting. You use the Sachar committee to justify your real attention to the problems that face the Muslim community but the truth is that it's been three years since the Sachar committee report was handed over to the Prime Minister on November 17.

It's almost three years since it was tabled in Parliament on November 30. But even till today, no action taken report has been tabled in Parliament and most people question if it even exits?

Salman Khurshid: The action? I am here and I am supposed to ensure that it's been implemented. Ninety districts have been earmarked; Rs 2,500 crore has been allotted and another Rs 1,000 crore will hopefully come in the mid-term review of the Planning Commission.

We have actually increased our scholarships to Muslim children, minority children from Rs 6 lakh to Rs 50 lakh. We got 600 scholarship applications.

Karan Thapar: Yes, against applications of perhaps tens or twenties of million. What you have done is the drop in the ocean.

Salman Khurshid: Well, it's a beginning.

Karan Thapar: Okay. Come back to the action taken report first. Your predecessor A R Antulay went on to the record to say, that the action taken report will be taken to the Parliament in February 2007. But what has happened after two years and nine-months later?

Salman Khurshid: No, No. I think you got it wrong.

Karan Thapar: No, I haven't. I got it right. A R Antulay said so.

Salman Khurshid: The action taken report was presented to Parliament. What didn't happen in Parliament was the full discussion on the Sachar Committee report. The action taken report is there because I have read the action taken report.

Karan Thapar: It hasn't been tabled in the Parliament.

Salman Khurshid: Of course.

Karan Thapar: It may be there in your ministry but even Dr Abusaleh Sharif, the member-secretary of the Sachar Commission, has gone on record to say that the action taken report hasn't been presented.

He has gone further to say that practically every important recommendation, barring the one you have mentioned, regarding scholarships have been ignored. Occasionally, he says that the Government has said they will act on it but beyond the rhetoric, they have done nothing.

Salman Khurshid: Let me tell you officially then, there is one recommendation that we have not accepted—one, single. And that is to have a nationwide cadre of wakf officers. Everything else has been accepted. It's the subsequent recommendations that I imagine are coming in the new report--the Rangnath Mishra Commission report--which has not yet been placed before the Parliament. They may be feeling that those recommendations have not been implemented, but how can they be.

Karan Thapar: Alright, you have said that only one recommendation of Sachar committee hasn't been accepted, everything else has been accepted. So let's come to some of the more important recommendation and test them with you.

Salman Khurshid: Alright.

Karan Thapar: The Sachar report asked for equal opportunities commission, they believed it was an important way of improving Muslim representation in jobs. So far your Government has not committed itself to that.

Salman Khurshid: I'm telling you, I'm committing myself to that now...

Karan Thapar: But here and now, for the first time

Salman Khurshid: No, no please listen. The planning commission has looked at it, we have looked at it, the Law ministry have looked at it, the report is now ready, a GOM is being set up to work out the details of where this commission will be located. We will bring this legislation before Parliament in the coming session.

Karan Thapar: I want you to get it repeat as I think it's important. You are giving me a guarantee that your Government has not only accepted the proposal for an equal opportunities commission, but you will implement it as well.

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Salman Khurshid: Yes...Yes.

Karan Thapar: When?

Salman Khurshid: The only time that now, we require is for the GOM, which will probably meet very soon to work out on the location of this commission. Otherwise during this session, it will be before the House. For any unavoidable reason if it doesn't come in this session, it will come in the next session.

Karan Thapar: Why it can't come in this session? It's already three years since the report was submitted. Why can't it be submitted in this session?

Salman Khurshid: Please understand. We have 13 commissions. There was the overlap problem that we had to resolve. We have to go to 13 different ministries.

Karan Thapar: You have taken three years to do that. You had a lot of time, it's not that the suggestion has came yesterday.

Salman Khurshid: Yes, we have taken more than four years to get the legislation on corporates before Parliament.

Karan Thapar: What's the chance that the session on Parliament that going to begin on November 19 will be the session that will see this bill pass?

Salman Khurshid: I think it's a very good chance. Please understand, I have also informed the Secretariat, I have informed the Parliament Secretariat that we intend to introduce this bill during this session.

Karan Thapar: How hopeful you are that bill would be passed rapidly as opposed to being sent to the signing committee and being buried there.

Salman Khurshid: Nothing has been buried in Signing Committee, but sometimes when you have an important bill of consequences that are far reaching, Parliament itself decides that you should.

Karan Thapar: Have you consulted with the Opposition parties and ally parties to get a consensus or it that still to be done?

Salman Khurshid: No, no you can't do that on Parliament, except through consultative committees where we have been talking about it till such times as the legislation comes.

Karan Thapar: It's quite possible for you to approach the BJP, it's quite possible for you to approach to the Left and to get their opinion before you present the bill, so that you can ensure quick and successful passage.

Salman Khurshid: No, that is not our system. Politicians talk among themselves but formally parties are consulted only when legislation comes before the party.

Karan Thapar: In other words, you haven't consulted to anyone and you have done this internally only within the Government.

Salman Khurshid: I am not telling you whether we have consulted or not. After all it is based on a report of outstanding people of great minds. We want lot of institutions. We have talked to a lot of lawyers; we have talked to lot of civil society peoples. It was on the web.

Karan Thapar: OK. Let's come to then another important recommendation of the Sachar Committee. This time they are concerned about the poor Muslim political representation. One of their recommendations is that in constituencies where Muslims are in greater proportionate numbers than Dalits, such constituencies should not be reserved for Dalits. Can you accept that?

Salman Khurshid: Can I accept the recommendation? I don't think this recommendation has come from them.

Karan Thapar: This is part of the Sachar report.

Salman Khurshid: It's only they have hinted on that..

Karan Thapar: They have mentioned it. It is part of the Sachar committee report.

Salman Khurshid: No, they have mentioned it because a new commission was set up. The Rangnath Mishra Commission was set up, which was supposed to look at this specifically. That report is not before Parliament yet.

Karan Thapar: So, that's why the idea and this proposal to correct the poor representation of Muslims in Parliament and elsewhere is still stuck in this committee. Committee after committee will carry on, but there will be no solution.

Salman Khurshid: Absolutely. Because it is not something you don't change your polity overnight.

Karan Thapar: You don't agonize for three years and keep pushing it from one committee to next. That's the way of not taking a decision.

Salman Khurshid: That's not at all the case, where we thought we needed immediate intervention, education, jobs we have done it.

Karan Thapar: Just with limited reference to scholarships, it's only about 50,000 I believe that you have created.

Salman Khurshid: Scholarships? No, I am sorry. It will be 50 lakh next year and it is 29 lakh this year. Who ever has given you this information is not fair. 50 lakh next year, 29 lakh this year.

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Karan Thapar: Compared to perhaps 40 million people to 50 million people replying.

Salman Khurshid: No, no in Rajasthan, Andhra Pradesh, where we have got three times or four times the numbers that we have actually provided to them. That's the reason we are giving 50 lakh to them.

Karan Thapar: You brought up Andhra Pradesh a moment to go. Why can't you take a leaf out of your own Andhra Pradesh government's book and arrange laws that will permit Muslims to be incorporated in panchayats, municipalities, and agricultural marketing committees and even cooperative bank committees and that will give them a meaningful role in institutions that determine their life.

That's a step your government in Andhra has taken, why can't you take it here?

Salman Khurshid: No, no please understand. The step taken in Andhra Pradesh still needs endorsement. Three times, Constitution benchers has stuck it down and its still before a Constitutional bench in Andhra Pradesh. It's pending in judgment and reserved for a judgement. That's a very important input we have.

Karan Thapar: Are you inclined to move in the direction Andhra Pradesh did?

Salman Khurshid: We said so in their manifesto.

Karan Thapar: There is lot of things you said in your manifesto but could not do.

Salman Khurshid: We have committed to it our manifesto.

Karan Thapar: Repeat to that again - you are committed to this particular thing.

Salman Khurshid: Absolutely. I am saying it to you again we are committed to this. But what we are looking is at two things - one is what kind of model of backward minorities we should implement? Should it be the Karnataka model or should it be the Andhra model? I will explain the difference.

The difference is that in the Karnataka model, in 27 per cent for backwards you give a separate portion for backward minorities or backward Muslims. That's what you do in Karnataka. In Karnataka you declare all minorities, all Muslims as backward.

In Andhra Pradesh you take all Muslims minus four or five categories like Sheikh, Syed, Pathans etc. and then you give them four per cent beyond the 27. When they were given five it went to 51 etc. We have to choose what is most sustainable for the Centre.

Karan Thapar: But how quickly?

Salman Khurshid: I can't give you a deadline on this.

Karan Thapar: Will this process go on forever, that's what Muslims want to know?

Salman Khurshid: It is a high priority. I can say this to you, it's a high priority. We are looking at it all the time. We are working on it 24X7. Please believe me. This is something that we will do, it's a commitment.

Our leaders have said it we will do it. But we will do it in a sustainable manner. I don't want to give a model that will be stuck down by cops tomorrow.

Karan Thapar: You have said, that please believe me. I will believe you. But the bigger question is, will the Muslims community who has been waiting for three years?

Salman Khurshid: Why don't you go ask them in Ferozabad?

Karan Thapar: Salman Khurshid, let's come to the Jamiat-e-Ulema resolution, calling upon Muslims not to sing Vande Mataram. You already said that this was an unnecessary resolution, but can you go one step further?

Can you as Minister of Minority Affairs criticise and condemn the resolution?

Salman Khurshid: It's a resolution that has no basis whatsoever. I sing the Vande Mataram in Parliament, outside Parliament, in my party office, every time we have flag hosting, we sing Vande Mataram.

Karan Thapar: Are you proud to sing Vande Mataram?

Salman Khurshid: Absolutely. I am not only proud but I'm committed and consider it my obligation. I consider it my political obligation because my leaders--Maulana Azad and Pandit Jawarhar Lal Nehru--sat together and set to rest whatever questions there were about Vande Mataram, the standards of Vande Mataram that people were objecting to.

Karan Thapar: In which case, given that you sing it with in pride--and given that the controversies that were set to rest by Maulana Azad and Pandit Jawarhar Lal Nehru, almost 50 years ago--I repeat my original question, can you today criticise and condemn the Jamiat-e Ulema resolution?

Salman Khurshid: When you say it is unnecessary, that is counter productive and is that not criticism.

Karan Thapar: Those are euphemisms. Why don't you say up in front I condemn that resolution?

Salman Khurshid: No, no, I condemn anything that is wrong. I think it is unnecessary, it is unacceptable. I think for an organisation as big as the Jamiat-e Ulama Hind, with all the eminent people it has, for me to use harsh words does make no sense. I am saying it's unacceptable, it's counter productive; it is not good for our society, it is not good for India, and it is not good for Muslims.

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Karan Thapar: One other thing, the resolution simply does not say the Muslims not to sing Vande Matram, it goes one step further. It demands and I quote, ‘the issue of the Vande Mataram not be deliberately raised for causing communal discord and a threat to law and order’.

Do you believe, that those who sing Vande Mataram do it to provoke Muslims?

Salman Khurshid: Well, some do. But I couldn't be provoking Muslims, I sing it. But when somebody from a die-hard extremist party says, if you want to stay in India, you must sing Vande Mataram (‘Bharat mein rehna hain toh Vande Mataram kehna hain’), so is that not a provocation? I sing it not to provoke. I sing it with pride, as I told you with commitment.

I sing it with a sense of patriotism, but when somebody says something ugly in that manner, isn't that provocation? It's a tragedy. Someone is insisting that we don't sing this because they have strange notion of what is good and somebody else is insisting that we sing it because they believe this is the only way to show us down. Now I think both ends are now unacceptable.

Karan Thapar: That may be true for small minority but would you say that the majority of those who sing Vande Mataram do it to provoke Muslims or do they do it out of sense for national pride?

Salman Khurshid: How can it be? If I sing it out of national pride, they must also sing it out of national pride. But, let me just say one small thing that there is a small area where somebody can have a different point of view about the manner in which you show your allegiance or your patriotism.

The Supreme Court in the Jehovah's Witness's case has said that it is okay if you don't want to stand up because of your religion when the National Anthem is sung, we don't have any problem. When the Supreme Court can allow them this, the Supreme Court can also allow different views about Vande Mataram.

Our own party decision taken by Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru and Mualana Azad was that this is our national song, we must sing it with full respect, but if somebody doesn't want to sing it, we have no problem.

Karan Thapar: Last question, if some members of the Muslim community were to come to you, both as a minister and as a fellow Muslim, and ask you should I sing it or I should not?

Salman Khurshid: I will tell them to sing it. I will tell him to please stand by me shoulder to shoulder and sing it for the nation.

Karan Thapar: Salman Khurshid, a pleasure in talking to you.

Salman Khurshid: Thank you.