Delhi a vulnerable city: Sheila Dikshit

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How safe is New Delhi? That’s the key issue Karan Thapar explored with the Chief Minister of Delhi Sheila Dikshit.

Karan Thapar: Mrs Dikshit, after the recent bomb blasts there is a fear that perhaps every Saturday Delhi could be attacked. If I were to tell you that ordinary people are scared, would you understand?

Sheila Dikshit: Yes, of course. I am aware of it. I know everybody is scared. There is a fear psychosis all over the city because the recent bomb blasts have taken place in the most unexpected of areas–GK, Connaught Place, Gaffar Market.

Karan Thapar: Let me ask you bluntly. How safe is the Capital?

Sheila Dikshit: Well you must understand the peculiar situation of the Capital. Firstly, it has a very porous border. People can just walk in and out. They commit crime here and run away to other neighbouring states or vice versa. Secondly, it has an ever-increasing and ever-growing population. So identification and verification, which normally should be done in a Capital city, becomes somewhat difficult.

Karan Thapar: All of which makes Delhi more vulnerable?

Sheila Dikshit: It is certainly a vulnerable city and even more so because it is the capital of India, and therefore whatever happens here gets magnified. If something like this happens elsewhere, it does not get reported as widely.

Karan Thapar: So because of those three reasons you just mentioned, Delhi’s safety can not be guaranteed?

Sheila Dikshit: No, it should be guaranteed. Whatever it takes to increase the forces and to make them more agile should be done, I believe, is being done.

Karan Thapar: What would you say are the most vulnerable parts of the city? Is it crowded bazaars like Karol Bagh, Chandni Chowk and Paharganj or is it the Delhi Metro?

Sheila Dikshit: We had a meeting and I was told that the Metro is not vulnerable because E Sreedharan (former Delhi Metro chief) has taken a lot of care about it. But it could be a target for anybody who wants to create panic. These would be the most natural places where they would do it. Delhi remains vulnerable and we have to be extra careful about it. Whatever forces we require, should be trained immediately.

Karan Thapar: It’s not the terror that makes the citizens of Delhi feel vulnerable. It’s also what happens to young girls at night when they travel home from work. What happened to Soumya Viswanathan, a young producer who barely in her mid 20s was shot at and killed while she was driving home. How much does that horrify you?

Sheila Dikshit: It horrified me enormously. I am a woman myself. I have three sisters and two granddaughters. And I think what I said was really blown out of proportion. I can tell you I’m deeply concerned about it, but I would also like to tell you that those women who work in 24-hour jobs should be escorted by their employers as safely as they possibly can, and not be allowed to go back home at three in the morning, all by themselves. But it is a very sad incident. After that there have been some more incidents, so I think all of us have to get together as a society and see the safety of our young girls.

Karan Thapar: You suggested that the phrase that you used that Soumya shouldn’t have been so adventurous was either misunderstood or you used the wrong phrase. Am I correct in that interpretation?

Sheila Dikshit: You are correct both ways. I used the word adventurous in the sense that at three in the morning, driving home alone is not a safe thing for anybody to do. Above all, I think those who employ young girls, or even boys for that matter, and ask them to work for 24 hours, especially after 9 or 10, need to provide a most safe escort.

Karan Thapar: You said employers have a moral responsibility to ensure that young girls are escorted home safely?

Sheila Dikshit: Yes. Under the Shops and Establishments Act, this has been said and I think we should do it. Because please remember that crimes take do not take place where you expect policemen to be around.

Karan Thapar: This is something you’re saying to all employers in Delhi: please escort young girls, particularly after midnight?

Sheila Dikshit: Absolutely, because a girl going like that and the kind of pain it gave all of us…as I said, I understand this very well because I have a daughter too.

Karan Thapar: But there is an underlying issue here. You are suggesting that young girls in Delhi, particularly after midnight, are not safe on their own?

Sheila Dikshit: No, I’m not suggesting that I think we should be careful about this. I am not saying that they shouldn’t feel safe. There are establishments that run all round the clock, so as a society we should feel responsible for them. Of course police are responsible but employers who employ children for 24 hours work should be a little more sensitive.

Karan Thapar: I know that as Chief Minister of Delhi, law and order don’t directly come under you. But as the Chief Minister, how satisfied are you with the policing of Delhi?

Sheila Dikshit: Every time an incident like this happens, I get very upset. It’s like a personal loss to me. I also get upset when I find chaos in traffic. I keep meeting the police commissioner. I keep giving them ideas but I can only prevail upon them by goodwill.

Karan Thapar: You have no authority over them?

Sheila Dikshit: I have no authority over them. I can’t even ask them, for example, to transfer a certain constable. I have no legal authority. It’s just goodwill.

Karan Thapar: That means that sometimes, or quite often, they don’t listen to you?

Sheila Dikshit: Yes, but whenever an incident like this takes place, I do ring up the police commissioner, I do give them ideas and I do meet the Lieutenant Governor. And I think they are doing what they can. But modern kind of training and instrumentation, CCTV cameras and all will take a little time.

Karan Thapar: You’ve been very honest in explaining how you feel a personal sense of anguish when these incidents happen and yet there’s not much that you can do. If I were to say to you that there is this perception that the Congress government is weak on terror in responding to issues like this, how would you respond to that?

Sheila Dikshit: What do you mean by saying Congress government? What has happened in Gujarat is not Congress government. What has happened in Orissa is not Congress government. What is happening in Maharashtra, yes that is Congress government. But because elections are coming near these incidents will take place to divide society. And all of us know that there are some parties, which do believe in dividing society so that people are not hesitant to exercise what they normally wouldn’t in normal times.

Karan Thapar: You’re hinting that there are political parties, who believe they stand to benefit from such divisions, are doing this on purpose?

Sheila Dikshit: They believe that and I think their belief is wrong, because India is above everybody else.

Karan Thapar: But you’re pointing fingers at the BJP, aren’t you?

Sheila Dikshit: No, I am not going to take any party’s name but there are parties which do it on caste and religious lines. And I think as political parties, all of them should get together and say that just to gain some political points we will not disturb the peace and tranquillity of this country which has been there for years.

Karan Thapar: Just a week ago, when the incident happened in Mehrauli, many people thought that it was done by political parties to exploit the situation. You may not name it but I’ll suggest that many people pointed finger at the BJP. You’re suggesting that there may have been some truth to that?

Sheila Dikshit: No. I do get these impressions that all the 10 years that I’ve been CM we’ve have never had incidences like this.

Karan Thapar: Why is it happening now?

Sheila Dikshit: That’s a question a lot of people are asking. Is it because the elections are drawing near? Delhi is mini India. Everybody lives here in peace and harmony. I can say with a certain measure of pride that whenever any incident of this nature has even begun, it’s been nipped then and there in the bud.

Karan Thapar: And you’re determined to make sure that that’s always the case?

Sheila Dikshit: I hope so. I really hope so. But terrorism is something you can’t anticipate, so it is something for which we need to strengthen our forces and modernise them. We need to have all the gadgets that are going to determine where a thing is going to happen and for that we will need citizens’ vigilance as well.

Karan Thapar: Let’s come to what many consider the single most important consequence of the police encounter in Jamia Nagar. People from the Muslim community who live in that locality believe that they’re now regarded with suspicion and treated as terrorists. Does that worry you?

Sheila Dikshit: Of course it worries me enormously. Nobody as a community should feel that they are being targeted. I think if this is happening, I’d like to assure the people that it’s not the case. Don’t spread panic because there are elements who are trying to spread this. Don’t do it. For decades and decades, they all have been our beloved brothers and sisters, just like anybody else.

Karan Thapar: Let me give you two examples why Muslims suddenly feel they are being targeted. To begin with, commercial establishments have suddenly stopped home delivering in those areas. Pizza and burger companies that would deliver to anywhere now won’t go to Jamia Nagar.

Sheila Dikshit: I’ve read this in the press and I don’t know how far this is true. I do hope they overcome this fear because to them a customer is a customer.

Karan Thapar: So you’re saying to pizza and burger companies, don’t discriminate against Jamia Nagar residents?

Sheila Dikshit: Certainly. For them, all customers are equal.

Karan Thapar: Times of India reports that Jamia Nagar does not have a Mother Daily or Safal outlet. It doesn’t have an MCD medical dispensary and it doesn’t even have a fair price shop. Is that a sense in which your own government has neglected Jamia Nagar?

Sheila Dikshit: No, I don’t think so. There has never been any demand of this kind. We are opening up a lot of government outlets and shops just to keep the prices down. I’m hearing all this now. We’ll look into it.

Karan Thapar: There are serious questions being asked about encounter in Jamia Nagar itself. Magazines like ‘Outlook’ and ‘Tehelka’, newspapers like ‘Mail Today’, and even leading Supreme Court lawyers like Prashant Bhushan, who are highly respected, have raised embarrassing questions about police’s version. Do you think there is need for a formal enquiry to dispel doubt and to authoritatively establish what happened?

Sheila Dikshit: There have been some demands. But you must remember the police also act on the information it gets and to condemn the police before things… Had the police not done anything then people would have said police don’t do anything. Anyway, these are questions which police commissioners should answer and I think they will eventually answer. All I can plead for is to have faith.

Karan Thapar: I completely understand that one mustn’t demoralise police, leave alone condemn them but that said and done, you know the nature of questions being asked. You know the type of people asking the questions suggests that there is also serious concern that the police version may not be completely accurate. For that reason, wouldn’t it be a good idea to clear the air and remove the doubts of the Muslim community?

Sheila Dikshit: I hope the Home Minister’s listening to this interview. It’s for him to take the decision. I can’t interfere in this but I believe people have already met the Home Minister. I believe they have sent their opinion but I would like to have peace and calm. Because sometimes I get the impression that things are blown out of proportion and I’m quite certain that had the police not done something then they would have been blamed. Who’s bringing out these ideas? I feel very sad when young people are caught in all of that.

Karan Thapar: You said that this is a decision for the Home Minister to take. If the Home Minister asks you for your advice as Chief Minister, would you recommend an enquiry?

Sheila Dikshit: Let him ask that. People come and see me. Whatever they tell me, I tell the Minister.

Karan Thapar: And many people, including Congress, have asked you to set up an enquiry .

Sheila Dikshit: Yes, Congress people also. It’s for the Home Minister, the lieutenant governor and the police commissioner to take a decision because no action is without its consequences.

Karan Thapar: Let me raise another issue with you that causes anguish to the Muslim community. They say that police periodically hold press conferences or they leak information to contacts in the press, as a result of which half-baked theories are handed out. The press then accepts these as facts and readership accepts them as truth and as a result Jamia Nagar and, in particular, Jamia Millia University are branded as terrorist hubs. Should this happen?

Sheila Dikshit: No. Please remember that the blasts took place in Gaffar market, GK, Connaught Place. I don’t think all the blasts took place in a particular area. These are people who are not friends of the country; they are enemies.

Karan Thapar: But should police briefings end up making Jamia Nagar a terrorist hub?

Sheila Dikshit: That’s for them to decide. They give out what are facts and that’s all. I cannot doubt them but I also do not doubt what the people are feeling.

Karan Thapar: So what you’re saying here is that there’s need for discretion?

Sheila Dikshit: Yes, absolutely.

Karan Thapar: And they need to be careful and think twice before they give out details?

Sheila Dikshit: Yes.

Karan Thapar: Particularly when the details are unconfirmed?

Sheila Dikshit: No, I don’t think police would give out unconfirmed details.

Karan Thapar: But still be discreet about what you say because it can affect the mood of the city?

Sheila Dikshit: Yes, it can, but remember that police come out with facts. It’s a disciplined organisation. Now it’s the people who start interpreting the facts in different ways.

Karan Thapar: The BJP and certain sections of the press have strongly criticised the vice chancellor of Jamia Millia Islamia for offering university assistance to students who have been charged with or accused of terrorist crimes. Did he do the right thing?

Sheila Dikshit: The BJP has asked for it so you know the colour. Secondly, I think what the vice chancellor has done is perfectly within his competence.

Karan Thapar: Do you support him?

Sheila Dikshit: It’s not a matter of supporting him. What he has done is the right thing. He has does it within his competence. What’s wrong with it? He’s trying to protect his students. Is there something wrong with that? BJP wants to make an issue out of it because it wants to go on communalising it.

Karan Thapar: I apologise for interrupting. You’re not just the Chief Minister of Delhi, but you’re also a mother. What do you say to young Muslims who today feel worried and insecure and most importantly unwanted in their own city?

Sheila Dikshit: There is no reason for them to feel unwanted. Ninety nine point nine per cent of people have lived with them in peace and harmony and given them respect. Neighbours live together and help each other. Please don’t get incited. Come to us, we’re all there. Police, I’m sure, will not discriminate and neither will any government – certainly not a Congress government.

Karan Thapar: Sheila Dikshit, a pleasure talking to you.