Education reform for all Indians: Sibal

How does Union Human Resources Development Minister Kapil Sibal respond to the criticisms of his educational reforms? Karan Thapar asked him on Devil’s Advocate.

Karan Thapar: Minister, on June 25, at your press conference, did you throw up ideas for public debate or did you announce decisions taken by the Government?

Kapil Sibal: The press release that day suggested that there were some issues which were merely ideas; there were some that were decisions; there were some which were initiatives of policy and there were decisions initiatives and legislations.

Unfortunately, the press misinterpreted all that by terming all I said as decisions.

Karan Thapar: So just to clarify, because there has been an impression created both on television and papers that everything you announced is a decision to which the Government is committed, you are now saying to me that some of the things were decisions, others were ideas for discussions and yet others were ideas for exploration.

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely and that is reflected in the press release itself. It was a written press release explaining which idea was for discussion, which for exploration and which one was a decision.

Karan Thapar: One of the reasons why there was confusion was that at the same time, you made it clear that these were your ministry's agenda for the first 100 days. Can an agenda consist of things that are not decisions?

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely. A Government functions by putting ideas and issues in the public domain through the ministry and then the minister comes and says this is my 100-day agenda, I would like some of these things to be discussed but some of these things I am doing anyway. This is how public discussions and debate take place in a democracy.

Karan Thapar: So when a minister comes and says that theses are the things I am putting in the public domain, I'd like them discussed; are you also saying to me that you are open not just to public debate but listening to what the public says and adding, amending, altering so of your ideas accordingly?

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely. These things evolve when we put them out. One should understand that we did a lot of work, which means that a lot of public discussion has already gone into this.

Karan Thapar: But that is inside your ministry, among your ministry officials.

Kapil Sibal: Take for example, the National Curriculum Framework of 2005. In that itself there was a huge process of public interaction before the framework was put in place, so there is a public framework already in place. So, if I am trying to take that forward, there is still public discussion and I am ready to listen to that.

Karan Thapar: So when you say you are willing to listen to the public it means that many of the ideas that you threw up can be amended or altered with public debate?

Kapil Sibal: Yes, it should be. That is what a democracy is all about.

Karan Thapar: So, it is possible that some of the ideas which you threw up may not happen because the public debate may overtake it.

Kapil Sibal: Of course, it is in the domain of the possibility but at the same time when I have put these ideas in the public domain there is my initial prima facie conclusion that these are good for my country, these educational reforms are required.

But if there is a public outcry that this is not possible and I feel there is a rationale in that I would certainly go ahead with it.

Karan Thapar: When you say that when you put this is in public domain you believe they are good ideas for the country. Did you at any point talk to the Prime Minister or share these ideas with him?

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Kapil Sibal: On many of the issues which were mentioned in the press release are consistent with the Congress policy. For example, let me take Foreign Direct Investment (FDI). You saw the Economic Survey that itself talks about FDI in the educational sector.

So many of these things are either in the presidential address or the National Curriculum Framework or they are the part of the Economic Survey or they are pronouncements made by the Government.

Karan Thapar: That I fully understood but did you actually have a word with the Prime Minister before that press conference?

Kapil Sibal: This is not something I can answer publicly. Let me put it very bluntly that the Prime Minister himself is extremely keen that the educational sector be reformed.

Karan Thapar: Why I asked you this question is that because at least five Congress-ruled state governments have expressed some measure of disagreement with some of your suggestions.

Kapil Sibal: But only on one issue: the Board exams.

Karan Thapar: And that is very critical because that is the section of your reform which has attracted maximum attention. So is the Prime Minister on board with this?

Kapil Sibal: First of all let us be clear that the states have entirely misunderstood what I said. What I said in my press conference and press release that I am not going to touch the state board at all.

I said the Class 10 exam option that I will give will apply to schools throughout India which are affiliated to the CBSE system, which goes up to Class 12. So the state boards are not concerned with it.

The states which think that I am tinkering with their state boards have either not read the press release or haven't heard me make those statements in my press conference.

Karan Thapar: But let me come back to it that are Mrs (Sonia) Gandhi and the Prime Minister on board with you?

Kapil Sibal: Okay, let me take the Class 10 board exams - this doesn't even have to go to the Cabinet because the CBSE comes within the ministry.

Karan Thapar: So there is no need for you to consult the Prime Minister?

Kapil Sibal: Whether I consulted them or not is a separate issue; there is no need to do it. What we discuss with the Prime Minister or Mrs Gandhi is not for public disclosure.

Karan Thapar: Okay, let us now come to two-three public proposals which have attracted maximum public attention. The first one is the idea of making the Class 10 board exam optional.

You say you are doing it because you want to de-traumatise education. But let me put it to you that the exams are not the real cause of trauma, the real cause of trauma is the competitiveness in the system because there are aren't enough seats for higher education as compared to the demand.

As a result of which the cut off keeps getting higher and higher and at the top of that there is parental pressure. Are you not targeting the wrong cause of trauma?

Kapil Sibal: Not at all. Incidentally, if you again look at my press release it says I will start the process of reforming the examination system in the context of the National Curriculum Framework 2005 so it is across the board--you people have only talked about Class 10.

Karan Thapar: When you say it is across the board, are you saying the entire approach of teachers to education as well as a move away from exams to grades and a continual assessment--all of that will happen?

Kapil Sibal: Yes, all of that should happen.

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Karan Thapar: Will all of that will happen simultaneously?

Kapil Sibal: No, we will see how much time it takes. Discussion, public debates should take place and then what we think is best for the students of this country to de-traumatise them and to ensure that the examination system is more objective, that the marks are not the only basis on which you judge a person - all that will happen.

Karan Thapar: Then you are indicating to me that if all this has to happen--so as to enable the Class 10 board exams to become optional--then you are talking of a process that could take two-three years not something which will take six-seven months?

Kapil Sibal: Not necessarily as I said. The National Curriculum is already in place which suggests all these things.

Karan Thapar: But implementation takes time.

Kapil Sibal: Not necessarily.

Karan Thapar: Then let me ask you this that how quickly could you do this?

Kapil Sibal: Within a year.

Karan Thapar: Within a year the Class 10 board exams could become optional?

Kapil Sibal: Could be--there is a real possibility.

Karan Thapar: The second big idea that you have thrown up and which has attracted a lot of attention is the idea of a uniform single national board in Class 12.

Now the problem is that Professor Yashpal says these are not his recommendations and more importantly he adds: "I cannot understand how we can talk about standardising syllabus and academic content across the country".

Kapil Sibal: I didn't say any of that.

Karan Thapar: I know you didn't say any of that but if you are going to have a single uniform Class 12 Board, then you have to standardise the syllabus and the content.

Kapil Sibal: No, not at all. There is a lot of diversity in our country, so as you move along the school system each state and each board is entitled to lay focus on certain issues.

When you come to Class 12 and you have subject like Mathematics, there cannot be any regional diversification in Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry or English literature.

Karan Thapar: But when it comes to Social Science, History and Literature, different school boards emphasise on different aspects and if you don't standardise syllabus then you have a problem with a uniform board exam.

Kapil Sibal: Uniformity doesn't mean uniformity in teaching, it means uniformity in standards.

Karan Thapar: But uniformity of standards pre-requires uniformity of syllabus, content.

Kapil Sibal: First of all it is a long-term goal and I believe in it.

Karan Thapar: So, if you agree that it is long-term goal do you agree that this issue can't happen in six months.

Kapil Sibal: I never said that, I said five years. In fact at my press conference I said it is not a part of the 100-day agenda. This is something India has to move towards.

It will take at least five years to do because we'll have to take state governments on board.

Karan Thapar: Will it happen in the lifetime of this Government?

Kapil Sibal: I hope so.

Karan Thapar: So, it may not happen also?

Kapil Sibal: Yes it may not, but I hope it does.

Karan Thapar: The last issue is your suggestion that you will pass a new law to regulate the entry and operation of foreign universities. Now the problem is that while press and a large section of industries have warmly welcomed your idea, members of your own Government have opposed it.

In fact (Environment Minister) Jairam Ramesh has said: "Our universities are in bad shape and lack infrastructure facilities. We are not even able to pay decent salaries to our teachers. In this situation allowing foreign universities to open shop is not a practical idea".

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Kapil Sibal: Well, I am afraid that the Economic Survey is in consistent with the statement.

Karan Thapar: So, shouldn't Jairam Ramesh keep his mouth shut in public. It is embarrassing for the Government?

Kapil Sibal: I will not comment on this. I have deep respect for my colleagues.

Karan Thapar: But he doesn't have deep respect for your suggestion.

Kapil Sibal: It really does not matter. I am certainly not embarrassed.

Karan Thapar: Will these universities - if they open branches in India - have to fulfill the reservation requirement which apply to universities in India?

Kapil Sibal: This legislation has not been even brought to Parliament, so I think it is not fair of me to discuss the nitty-gritty of this legislation in public. These are issues which will be looked into.

Karan Thapar: You have given me a clear answer that these are the issues on which the Government hasn't made up its mind and therefore reservations may not apply on them.

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely. It is possible, but that would depend on the decisions taken in future. But if you ask me my personal opinion then if a college gives a simple BA degree then I don't understand why the reservation shouldn't apply on it. But it is a personal opinion. It may be overruled by the Cabinet.

Karan Thapar: Let's come to a situation which many consider the real crisis in Indian education: the appalling state of primary schools in rural India and yet on June 25, I never heard you say much about that. Why?

Kapil Sibal: No, I said the Right to Education Bill will be passed.

Karan Thapar: But the Right to Education Bill is something different from improving the standard of education in schools.

Kapil Sibal: Not at all. It is exactly the same. There is a concept of something called the neighbourhood school which means there has to be a neighbourhood school in every habitation.

Karan Thapar: This is very close to something which is a specific part of the Congress manifesto. It's a commitment which if fulfilled would build enormous life into village schools.

I am going to quote it to you because the problem is that you didn't say anything about it on June 25. Here is the commitment: you will add one more model school in every block, every year for the next five years. But you didn't say a word about that.

Kapil Sibal: You see once the Right to Education Bill comes in, this is automatically going to happen.

Karan Thapar: But it may not automatically happen because the Right to Education Bill simply guarantees the right to education.

Kapil Sibal: No, no, no. It guarantees that within three years these schools will be built.

Karan Thapar: But why did you not make special, specific mention?

Kapil Sibal: Because it is all included. I was taking about legislative initiatives. I was not extrapolating policies.

I am reiterating that this is paramount as far as we are concerned. Schools in every habitation - model schools, quality schools, government schools and free schools are crucial.

Karan Thapar: Will you fulfill this commitment in your manifesto of one more model school in every block, every year for the next five years?

Kapil Sibal: I will fulfill the commitment under the Right to Education Bill and that will encompass all of this.

Karan Thapar: A second commitment in your manifesto which many believe would breathe life into village schools is commitment for a major programme of training for teachers and improving the physical environment in schools.

Again on June 25, you didn't say too much on this.

Kapil Sibal: I did. It's part of the press release. There is a whole new programme on teacher training.

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Karan Thapar: In a mild indirect form only, not in terms of a major programme though.

Kapil Sibal: It is a major programme. We are going to overhaul the entire system. It's said there in the press release.

Karan Thapar: So this is a full-fledged commitment?

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely.

Karan Thapar: Let me say why I focussed on this. The reason why I stressed upon this real crisis in education is that many people believe that your reforms - as they were enunciated - haven't focussed on village education and rural education problems, but instead they focussed on urban problems.

As a result of this, you are perceived to be thinking of reforms which help the middle class who are a minority and not the village poor who are a majority.

Kapil Sibal: On the contrary, I started by saying that most newspapers and the electronic media talk about 12 per cent of the people who move towards graduation, which is higher education, and forget about the rest of the 88 per cent of the people.

And my focus in the next five years is on that 88 per cent. And I am sorry that you even asked me this question because that is how I started my press conference (on June 25).

Karan Thapar: Are you saying to me that the press not only misunderstood you in as you pointed out earlier about what are ideas, what are decisions and what are simply issues for exploration, but also misunderstood you in terms of focus and emphasis?

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely. This is what I said at the outset and if you go and see a video recording of the press conference, you will see that what I am saying is right.

Karan Thapar: Except for the fact that this impression has actually continued for two weeks and you haven't actually corrected it.

Kapil Sibal: The press carries the stories it wants to carry.

Karan Thapar: But ministers can correct the press.

Kapil Sibal: That's why I am here. That's why you are having this interview with me.

Karan Thapar: So you have actually used this opportunity to correct the impression that you are not just talking about middle class, urban reforms but rural reforms for the majority?

Kapil Sibal: I am talking about 88 per cent of the people in India who are not talked about. This education reform is for them.

Karan Thapar: So, let me end by putting to you a blunt question. Are you really assuring me that at the end of five years--assuming you remain HRD Minister for all five years--village schools in India will be booming, they will have teachers who can teach and they will have physical infrastructure that actually allows classes to be held?

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Kapil Sibal: I can honestly say that as a minister I can try my best and make the best possible efforts. A lot of these reforms are very difficult when you need to implement them at the village level and we need cooperation from the state government to make changes.

Karan Thapar: You are now not making excuses to explain failure, are you?

Kapil Sibal: No excuses. We need cooperation from panchayats and I think if all stakeholders in this cooperate, this shall be done. But from my side, I will not leave a single stone unturned to make it happen.

Karan Thapar: Kapil Sibal, that must be music to the ears of millions of Indians who live in areas where there are schools with no teachers or where there are teachers but no schools. Let's hope you actually deliver. A pleasure talking to you.

Kapil Sibal: Thank you.