Every Indian will be literate by 2020: Sibal

On Devil's Advocate this week, Union Minister for Human Resource Development Kapil Sibal spoke to Karan Thapar on the United Progressive Alliance government's perceived loss of direction on key issues, its internal contradictions, and its ambitious plan to ensure free and compulsory education to all children above the age of six. Below is the transcript of that interview.

Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil's Advocate. Just 15 months after elections, is the government drifting, it has lost direction, or is that an unfair perception? That's the key issue I shall tackle today with Minister for Human Resource Development Kapil Sibal.

Kapil Sibal, whether it's Kashmir or tackling the Maoists, whether it's rising prices or preparation for the Commonwealth Games, or even relations with Pakistan, people perceive confusion or paralysis. What's gone wrong?

Kapil Sibal: I don't think that's quite true. Of course these are issues....all that you mentioned are real issues. I think any government will be facing these issues, whoever was in power, at this point in time. We are facing these issues. We are trying to resolve the legacy issues as some of them are legacy issues. The price rise issue, as you know, is an issue that the government is exceptionally concerned about and debates have taken place in Parliament and the Finance Minister has addressed them. So I don't think you can put the blame on the doorsteps of the government.

Karan Thapar: Let look at one or two of the issues where the sense of drift is perhaps more apparent, to try and get a sense of where the government stands. To begin with, the Maoists. The Prime Minister has repeatedly said that they are the single biggest security threat that India faces. Yet Mamata Banerjee - your colleague - hosts a rally with the support of the Maoists. And the IG of the western range of West Bengal has confirmed that Asit Mahato, who is wanted in connection with the Gyaneshwari attack, was present at the rally. How do you explain this contradiction?

Kapil Sibal: You know, first of all, if you want to talk about the general issue of Maoists, that's one thing. If you want to talk about a particular rally, that's quite another thing because you cannot talk about a particular rally and then talk about a government in general on that. So if you want to talk about the Maoists issues, I am ready to talk about it.

Karan Thapar: I'll tell you why I bring up the rally. Because for many people, that rally and the speech she made have been interpreted as undermining the government's strategy.

Kapil Sibal: That's alright. As I said, there will be many speeches in the history of this country and many in the last fifteen years which, in a given situation, will seek to undermine the authority of the government. But that's not so.

Karan Thapar: Would you accept that this undermines the authority?

Kapil Sibal: I don't think so at all. I don't think it's undermining the authority. The Home Minister has made it quite clear that many of these people are perceived as Maoists by the Home Ministry and certainly the government concerned is entitled to take action. And the Home Minister said in Parliament that he will be ready to deal with them.

Karan Thapar: Except that the members of the Cabinet don't speak in one voice but appear to contradict each other not just over small things like who attends the rally...

Kapil Sibal: ...if you want to look at the government in its overall performance, let's look at it. If you don't talk about individuals here and there, I don't think it undermines the enormous success of the government, especially in the context of the economy --I think that's really....

Karan Thapar: ...I'll come to the economy. Just stick to it. You therefore don't agree with the public perception that Mamata Banerjee's rally has undermined the government's policy on Maoists?

Kapil Sibal: I don't think so. Whether Mamata encourage them, did not encourage them, I don't know. This is something which I don't have any knowledge about.

Karan Thapar: But are you not embarrassed by the speech?

Kapil Sibal: I am certainly not embarrassed by the speech. If Mamata has made a speech and that particular speech if people are unhappy about it, then people are free to criticise. I don't think the Government of India is undermined by that. I think that's an extreme conclusion.

Karan Thapar: So in a sense you see what Mamata said and did as something that is separate from the government's policy?

Kapil Sibal: The government clearly is wanting to deal with the Maoists and wherever we find individuals are perceived as Maoists by the Government of India, the Government of India will certainly brook no interference in that process of taking action.

Karan Thapar: So when the people of India turn around and say they are confused by Mamata's speech, where does the government stand?

Kapil Sibal: I don't think the people of India are confused. People of India understand the politics.

Karan Thapar: Alright, let's come to another issue where the sense of drift seems to be strong - Kashmir. Since June 11, the state has been in turmoil. Yet the government in New Delhi appears paralysed and, until Tuesday, the Prime Minister was completely silent. Is that the wisest way of responding what many believe as perhaps the most serious crisis affecting the Valley.

Kapil Sibal: Again Karan, please do not look at the performance of the government by looking at one issue or statement made on a particular day. Remember, Kashmir is a legacy issue. Kashmir has been in turmoil for a long period of time. The turmoil in Kashmir or the Maoists situation has not risen since the coming of the UPA government. So therefore these are legacy issue and they have to be dealt with in that context.

Karan Thapar: I accept the point that they are legacy issues. But hasn't the Kashmir issue in a sense been inflamed and become much worse in the last six weeks? And the government's silence worries people.

Kapil Sibal: May be the tactics have changed. May be it's an ever evolving situation. Let me tell you one thing on record...and I think the Prime Minister said it. The Prime Minister understands the hurt of the people of Kashmir. He said so. The Prime Minister wants to reach out to the people of Kashmir. I think nobody in this government, nobody in this nation does not grieve with young children and their families who are victims.

Karan Thapar: Except that in this instance, the Prime Minister should have spoken much earlier. His silence has exacerbated the alienation...

Kapil Sibal: ..no, no you cannot talk about governments by saying that the Prime Minister should have spoken earlier. That's the perception that the media might have. But I think the government knows when it should speak, and the Prime Minister knows when to speak.

Karan Thapar: Once again. On this question of perception, it's much like the Maoist issue I talked about, you don't worry, and you aren't concerned that the perception of the press and many people is that the government doesn't have a policy or a position on Kashmir.

Kapil Sibal: As I said Karan, the press is not running our government though it seeks to set the agenda. And I think the press also, in some instances, should not go overboard. I have great respect for the press, but I am finding instances especially....

Karan Thapar: ...you are worried about the press criticism?

Kapil Sibal: I am not worried at all. In fact I welcome the criticism. But I think the press must understand the context in which things are done. Perhaps they don't have access to facts that the government has access to.

Karan Thapar: But shouldn't the government share those facts with the country?

Kapil Sibal: We do. Some facts can be shared, some facts cannot be shared.

Karan Thapar: Kashmir is one area where things can't be shared?

Kapil Sibal: We know, we do share some facts. Most of the time, we do share facts. And now with the Right to Information Act, facts are available to the public at large.

Karan Thapar: You are asking for a more understanding press. Let me then test that by coming to a third subject - the Commonwealth Games. Despite the delays, despite the proliferating allegations of corruption and the dismal state of Delhi's roads and pavements, your colleague Jaipal Reddy keeps saying these are going to be the best ever Commonwealth Games. The people, when they hear that, they say such bravado proves that he is either in a state of denial, or he is blind to the real problems.

Kapil Sibal: Okay now Karan, may I request you? When are the games going to be held? October?

Karan Thapar: the third.

Kapil Sibal: the third right?

Karan Thapar: Just six weeks away.

Kapil Sibal: Just six weeks away. Will you not please wait for six weeks to pass judgment. My request is - please wait for six weeks. But I can tell you one thing on record today that perhaps the stadiums that you see are perhaps better than any stadium anywhere in the world.

Karan Thapar: Let me accept what you said - wait six weeks to judge. But let me come to it by putting this to you. Your government has been preparing for the Games since 2004. If with just six weeks left, things still seem shambolic, doesn't that suggest that the government hasn't performed?

Kapil Sibal: I am not disputing that there are certain issues that may perhaps have been addressed earlier. I am not disputing that. There are certain issues that should be looked at. There are certain allegations that have been made, whether they are true or not I cannot say. But certainly all those must be looked into...

Karan Thapar: ...and will be?

Kapil Sibal: I am sure will be because the appropriate authorities will certainly decide and they have to because, under the Right to Information, you can get all the data. But the point is we are six weeks away from the Games. Let's not denigrate India. Let's not destroy India's credibility in the global community. And therefore, please don't go overboard. Let the games take place. On the 3rd of October they will start and will be over by 16th of October.

Karan Thapar: All of us are with you when you say that. Let me put a question to you, not as a Cabinet minister, this time as an MP from Delhi. As you know, perhaps better than me, this city is in a state of apprehension on what could happen when the Games come. Do you share your voters' and your constituents' concern?

Kapil Sibal: Of course I share. When I go to Connaught Place, I see part of that still in a state of total disarray.

Karan Thapar: Are you worried?

Kapil Sibal: Yes I am worried. But they say that by August 31, all this will be over. I cannot not believe them.

Karan Thapar: Let's then try and tie this up by putting to you the central concern why people are worried about this government drifting, losing direction and not being in control. And that's got to do with the lackluster nature of leadership. Let me put it like this: Sharad Pawar seems to be more interested in cricket than his ministry; Chidambaram is being publicly checked by Digvijaya Singh and Mani Shankar Aiyar; Montek Singh Alhuwalia and Kamal Nath don't agree on roads; Jairam Ramesh reputedly doesn't seem to agree with any of his colleagues and Mamata is more absent than present. What's going on?

Kapil Sibal: I don't know. You know whether you are stating impacts the overall performance of the government. I personally am not willing to comment on any of these things because I don't think it is my station to comment...

Karan Thapar: ...it may not affect performance but image....

Kapil Sibal: There are lots of positive things that are happening in the government that have not happened in the history of this country. So people weigh the pros and cons. Not every government is perfect. And people ultimately weigh the overall performance of the government. How has it done in economy? How has it done in some crucial sectors? And I do believe that this government has put in places systems that have never been put in this country before.

Karan Thapar: People are perplexed by the strange behaviour of the Prime Minister. They say while the government seems to lurch from crisis to crisis, he is either silent or invisible. It's almost as if he opted out.

Kapil Sibal: That's not true. First of all, I do not think that Prime Minister should speak everyday. The Prime Minister is wise; the Prime Minister ultimately leads the country.

Karan Thapar: But what about when there is a perceived sense of crisis?

Kapil Sibal: Yes there was a sense of crisis and the Prime Minister has spoken.

Karan Thapar: Which one are you talking about?

Kapil Sibal: I am talking about Kashmir.

Karan Thapar: He took six or eight weeks.

Kapil Sibal: It doesn't matter because we were letting the state government deal with the situation. Remember, much of what happens in Kashmir happens because of certain complex factors which need not necessarily be attributed within the territory of Kashmir itself.

Karan Thapar: So you are saying he speaks when he needs to speak?

Kapil Sibal: He speaks when he needs to speak, and he has rightly spoken, and he has spoken timely.

Karan Thapar: You don't agree that his silence on the Commonwealth Games or on Mamata is disconcerting?

Kapil Sibal: I don't think he should be talking about the Commonwealth Games, he shouldn't be. Look these are allegations and mostly through the media. Once the facts are before us and the investigation takes place, law will take its course. The Prime Minister shouldn't be involved in speaking on the Commonwealth Games whether something has been allegedly proved to be right or wrong.

Karan Thapar: So the perception that he is silent and has opted out is unfair?

Kapil Sibal: Totally unfair. I don't think he should talk about the Commonwealth Games at all. It is not his station to talk about the Commonwealth Games whether these allegations are true or not.

Karan Thapar: So the perception that this government has lost direction is unfair?

Kapil Sibal: Totally unfair.

Karan Thapar: Let's come to a subject where the government has won praise, first and foremost, the economy. There's no doubt that you have overcome the threat to growth. But the problem is that you have ended up with high inflation which you can't reduce. The inflation is stubbornly stuck at 9 per cent, food inflation has jumped up to 11.4 per cent. Let me ask you bluntly. Has inflation defeated the government?

Kapil Sibal: No I don't think so. I think the inflation is a phenomenon that is recognised. The Finance Minister and the government are extremely concerned about inflation. I think the steps are being taken and, with a record output this year, I think the inflation will go down to 5 per cent.

Karan Thapar: Let me put it like this. I will come to a moment to this claim that inflation will go down to 5 per cent by the end of the year. When you say steps are being taken, the Supreme Court has itself pointed out that rotting grain should have been given free. If it had been, prices would have come down and the hungry would have been fed.

Kapil Sibal: It's a highly exaggerated number.

Karan Thapar: Who has exaggerated?

Kapil Sibal: I mean the volume...

Karan Thapar: ...the Supreme Court has exaggerated?

Kapil Sibal: I am not talking about the Supreme Court. The numbers given in the public domain are highly exaggerated.

Karan Thapar: But it's the Supreme Court commenting that I am quoting to you.

Kapil Sibal: The Agriculture Minister said in Parliament, in Rajya Sabha to a question that these numbers are highly exaggerated.

Karan Thapar: So the Supreme Court has commented on figures that are not accurate?

Kapil Sibal: I am not commenting on the Supreme Court. I am only telling you what the minister said with responsibility, on the floor of the House.

Karan Thapar: Do not the government committed to the Aam Admi have a sense of guilt? The Supreme Court is saying don't let grains rot. Give it away instead.

Kapil Sibal: We agree. I am only questioning the numbers. We are saying that grains should not rot.

Karan Thapar: But it has rotted and it wasn't given.

Kapil Sibal: I am not disputing that. Some portions have rotted and it has to be deal.

Karan Thapar: So who is responsible for this?

Kapil Sibal: Government of course.

Karan Thapar: So the government carries the blame?

Kapil Sibal: Of course the government carries the blame. Why will government not carry the blame that some part of it is rotting? We must accept.

Karan Thapar: You are being very broad-minded. You are saying that the government was wrong.

Kapil Sibal: It's not a question of right and wrong. Remember central government doesn't look at every godown and doesn't inspect every godown which is in various states. There are some responsibilities of the FCI, the officers...

Karan Thapar: ...governments in the plural?

Kapil Sibal: Obviously governments in the plural. And governments in the plural, if some part of the grain is rotting, must take blame. Why it is rotting will be looked into. The fact of the matter is let's not blow this out of proportion. Ninety per cent of it, much more than that, doesn't rot.

Karan Thapar: Let's not blow this out of proportion. Let's then come to the second thing that you said - by the end of this year, inflation will be down to 5 per cent. Kausik Basu said it, Montek Singh Alhuwalia said it, Pranab Mukherjee said it. The problem is just six months ago all of them were predicting inflation will peak at 6 per cent in March, and it didn't. I put it to you that on the issue of inflation, the government's credibility is damaged.

Kapil Sibal: Again, as you said inflation is an issue, we accept that fact. But if you really look at the last several years, there is a global dimension to it and that's something that the Finance Minister has...

Karan Thapar: So you are a victim of something outside your control?

Kapil Sibal: I am not a victim. Please don't use these harsh words. I am neither a victim --we are part of a global market. There are some factors in global market that impact on inflation on which we have very little control.

Karan Thapar: I will leave it there but I will point out that others will disagree whether in fact its that global market that impacts it or whether it's your policy.

Kapil Sibal: Economics is not mathematics right? If it's not a formula of algebra, others will disagree.

Karan Thapar: Let's come then to the second area where the government has achieved a lot. The Right to Education undoubtedly is a significant landmark. The problem is people perceive you have trouble implementing it. Are you?

Kapil Sibal: There always will be because the process of implementation is highly complex. Again you see Karan, one must understand the government is not just Prime Minister. Prime Minister provides leadership. Government is various stakeholders who have official responsibility to carry forward the policies of the government. And therefore please do not look at the government by one incident here or there. Implementation of the Right to Education Act is the responsibility of who: the central government, state government, schools, parents?

Karan Thapar: Where is the problem?

Kapil Sibal: Problem is we need to make sure that the level of every school-- all that is laid in the Act is implemented.

Karan Thapar: Are schools defying the Act? Are private schools in particular, defying the Act?

Kapil Sibal: Neighbourhood schools have to be set up by the state governments and they have the authority to describe what a neighbourhood school is and where it should be set up.

Karan Thapar: Are they doing it, or are they doing it very slowly?

Kapil Sibal: They are doing it. They have got three years under the act itself. Now you want a 100 per cent performance in a few years when the Act describes three years. And you are saying look, there is a big problem of implementation. There is a problem and that implementation has to be done in a three year time. We are not even six months old in that.

Karan Thapar: Can I ask you one thing? When do you think every child above the age of six will be in school, at the act requires.

Kapil Sibal: I think every person will be literate in this country by 2020.

Karan Thapar: By 2020?

Kapil Sibal: Every person. When I say literate, I mean 98 per cent literacy.

Karan Thapar: What about my specific question. When will every child over the age of six will be in school?

Kapil Sibal: I would say within five years.

Karan Thapar: Within five years?

Kapil Sibal: Yes.

Karan Thapar: So implementation will take five years?

Kapil Sibal: Three years for the physical infrastructure, five years to get teachers there and in five years time, every child will be in school.

Karan Thapar: My last question. If it is going to take five years, can you understand the impatience people feel?

Kapil Sibal: When you say --the numbers will be increasing. We have 64 per cent literate today. There are ten million children out of school. We have to get them into school. This is no easy job and is not the job one minister or another but all the stake holders in the system. And that applies to every other function...

Karan Thapar: So you are satisfied with the progress even if people are impatient?

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely.

Karan Thapar: A pleasure talking to you.

Kapil Sibal: Thank you.

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