Infiltrators will try to disrupt polls: Govt

Union Home Minister P Chidambaram took over the charge of Home Ministry in the aftermath of November 2008 Mumbai terror attacks and has been on the forefront of India's war on terror.

He was literally in the line of fire on Tuesday when Sikh journalist Jarnail Singh hurled a shoe at him protesting Central Bureau of Investigation's (CBI) clean chit to Congress leader Jagdish Tytler in the 1984 anti-Sikh riots.

In an exclusive interview to CNN-IBN's Rajdeep Sardesai and Meetu Jain, Chidambaram speaks on the shoe-throwing incident, the anti-Sikh riots, terror threats, communalism and elections.

CNN-IBN: You were remarkably clam when a shoe was thrown at you by a journalist. But are shaken if not stirred by it?

P Chidambaram: No, no. Not at all. I don't think he intended to hurt me. I think he intended to provoke me. Why should I be provoked?

CNN-IBN: You don't feel that in some way perhaps the act of throwing a shoe was a symbolic protest and in that sense it is a wake up call for your party?

P Chidambaram: Well that's for the party to answer. I am not the minister in-charge for the CBI nor am I the judge. Nor the court. So I can't be provoked to pronounce anyone guilty or innocent. The question was about the CBI report and I explained the factual and legal context in which that report was to be seen and my job ends there. What further needs to be done is for the party to be decide.

CNN-IBN: But morally as a senior Congress leader and looking at the Sikh sentiment do you really think that Sajjan Kumar and Jagdish Tytler should now be given a ticket and that at least the party should be looking at the emotions on the ground and what the Sikhs really want. It is not really about the law and legislation.

P Chidambaram: I can't really answer the question because I am not the judge, I am not the court. I think it will be quite improper for anyone to pronounce a person either guilty or innocent.

CNN-IBN: Jarnail Singh himself has apologised. Would you like to meet him and accept his apology?

P Chidambaram: Well he has apologised and his boss has called me to apologise. I don't expect any further apology.

CNN-IBN: Sir, but does he reflect Sikh anger on the ground? You say you are not a judge in this particular case but you are not just the country's Home Minister but a senior Congress leader. Do you sense that Sikh anger on the ground is legitimate 25 years after the anti-Sikh riots? Not enough has been done to prosecute the guilty?

P Chidambaram: Sikhs have a legitimate grievance that not enough people have been prosecuted and punished. Some have been. Let us not forget that fact. Some people have been prosecuted, some have been punished.

CNN-IBN: There is a feeling that politicians have got away?

P Chidambaram: Whether anyone is guilty or innocent is not for me to pronounce. That's something which both Mr Jarnail Singh and anyone else must understand. You cannot ask a minister to pronounce anyone else guilty or innocent.

CNN-IBN: Sir but you are a senior leader and there is a sense that the CBI is called the Congress Bureau of Investigation…

P Chidambaram: That is rubbish. I will tell you why it is rubbish. Whenever there is a case the universal clamour is "give it to the CBI". The CBI might report one way or the other way. If then you begin to pass judgement on the CBI and not let the court deal with the report of the CBI… I think you are undermining the one investigative body in which by and large every one seems to have faith.

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CNN-IBN: There is a feeling that communal riots in this country have taken place over the years and no one gets prosecuted.

P Chidambaram: That's not right.

CNN-IBN: People do get away.

P Chidambaram: They are two separate statements. One that no one gets prosecuted is wrong.

CNN-IBN: Very few get convicted.

P Chidambaram: That again in wrong. Please remember that in Delhi… I can't give you the numbers but some have been prosecuted and some punished.

CNN-IBN: Thirteen have been convicted.

P Chidambaram: In Gujarat an attempt was made to whitewash the whole thing. But the law caught up with the perpetrators. Some have been prosecuted, some have been punished and there is another SIT report I believe in the courts.

CNN-IBN: Same could be said about 1984 that there has been an attempt to whitewash 1984. So has the time come to bring in some legislation?

P Chidambaram: Tell me how.

CNN-IBN: The government has at times suggested an act that would deal with communal violence, speedier trials.

P Chidambaram: Once a person is found guilty then the law takes its course. I do not know how you can frame a law by which a person can be pronounced guilty or innocent by anyone or at any stage before a court deals with the matter.

CNN-IBN: One final word. Are you worried that the relationship between the politicians and journalist could be ruptured as a result of what happened yesterday (Tuesday)?

P Chidambaram: No, no. Not at all. I think it was an emotional outburst by one journalist and I think he has quite rightfully regretted it. I think we should let it rest there. As far as I was concerned it was over in a moment.

CNN-IBN: Do you think that your security is now going to be enhanced? Do you think that one PSO is enough?

P Chidambaram: No, no. Not at all. One PSO is one too many.

CNN-IBN: Are you sure that yesterday's (Tuesday) incident doesn't call for any review of…

P Chidambaram: One hundred per cent sure. I think one PSO for me is one too many

CNN-IBN: A message to the Sikh community who today will have seen the pictures. The pictures have been played again and again on 24-hour news channels. What's you message?

P Chidambaram: To the Sikh community this is my message "law has to take its own course". Those who have been chargesheeted would have to be tried by courts. Some will be punished, some will be acquitted either on technical grounds or for want of evidence. But the Sikh community must have faith that to the best of my knowledge no one in the government has tried to whitewash anything and no one is trying to pressure the court or to influence the court.

CNN-IBN: Twenty-five years have passed. You can understand where the anger is coming from.

P Chidambaram: In these 25 years there have been different governments too. There have been several governments. Therefore the blame is to be shared as I assume that is what you are hinting at. The blame has to be shared by successive governments which have been in office in last 25 years. I agree it has been a shame that we have not been able to punish all those who are guilty of the ‘84 carnage. But equally we have not been able to punish all those who have been guilty of carnages in Bhagalpur, in Meerut and in many other places. That is because the investigation and the prosecution and trail system in this country are hopelessly flawed.

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CNN-IBN: Can I make one last attempt to ask you this? Do you think that the right message will be sent at this moment that if anyone against whom there is a public perception that he or she was involved in ‘84 riots is denied a ticket?

P Chidambaram: That question must be put to the party not to me.

CNN-IBN: Mr. Chidambaram just a day before your press conference was called there was blast in Assam. Do you accept that at the moment even though you have brought out this Congress party's pledge of protecting India from terror… that the challenge of terror is a challenge that you have still not been able to tackle.

P Chidambaram: Of course when I took office I did not say that we would be able to tackle it in three months or four months. But we have made significant progress. What you read in newspapers, you see in the media is an incident that happens and is reported. What about the dozens of incident that have been prevented, dozens of IEDs which have been defused? The 42 ULFA cadres who have been arrested in the last three and half months, the 15 ULFA cadres who were neutralised? Therefore, the challenges are great and all that I said then and I say now is we have to become better prepared and we are becoming better prepared with every passing months. Our response must be swifter and more decisive and that is what it will be with every passing month.

CNN-IBN: But Mr Chidambaram you manifesto makes a very passing mention of infiltration and you admit that Bangladeshi infiltration is the single biggest problem in the North-East at the moment. You have made a very passing mention of that.

P Chidambaram: You are mixing up two things. Bangladeshi poor people crossing the border to come to India for jobs etc. is not infiltration that we have to worry in terms of terror or militancy. That is a different issue. That is illegal migration and has to be dealt with as illegal migration. Here we are talking about militant groups, separatist groups, armed groups which come here to cause violence. We should not mix up the two.

CNN-IBN: But the fact is it is not just the eastern borders… there are reports now of infiltration again increasing across the Kashmir Valley. How serious is that and are you linking it to the growing presence and dominance of the Taliban in parts of Pakistan?

P Chidambaram: Yes. It is quite serious and I said so. It is quite serious. In fact the groups that were operating separately - LeT, JeM, JUM, HM (Hizbul Mujahideen)… they are now operating in tandem. In fact we have reasons to believe that they are operating together. Now whether they are under the control of the Taliban or other state or non-state actor, I am not in a position to say in this interview. But the fact is that they acting in tandem, they are acting in concert. They are attempting to infiltrate. They did so in the month of March and April. So far we have been able to thwart those attempts. But this is an unusual phenomenon. To infiltrate even when the snow has not melted is a worrying phenomenon.

CNN-IBN: And possible links with the Taliban?

P Chidambaram: I can't rule it out because the Taliban today has sway over large parts of Pakistan. So we can't rule that out.

CNN-IBN: The Taliban is literally on our doorsteps… that's the big worry.

P Chidambaram: Our doorstep hasn't moved. It is the Taliban which has moved inside and that is in another country Pakistan. So if the Taliban has to be arrested it has to be arrested by the Pakistan government. I cannot go beyond our border.

CNN-IBN: But they have moved closer home… to India.

P Chidambaram: Well they are deep into Pakistan and therefore they are closer to our border.

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CNN-IBN: The other issue that has arisen in the context of elections and you have written to chief ministers and senior leaders apparently on the security threat to elections. Are you seeing these very forces that you are saying have united whether it is the Hizbul, the Lashkar… these groups are coming together. They are the one who could target elections. How serious or real and specific is this threat? That's what the Ministry of External Affairs has also been saying that they (terror groups) are waiting at the borders to launch terror attacks.

P Chidambaram: You see infiltrators will come to India in order to cause mayhem here and what better time to do that than when elections are on. Many leaders are moving, travelling and more exposed. Therefore having regard to the intelligence and information that we have about infiltrations, we thought it was wise to caution political leaders about their movements and request them to take precautions.

CNN-IBN: Is the intelligence very specific, based on specific inputs?

P Chidambaram: It is.

CNN-IBN: You have got specific intelligence inputs to suggest that political leaders could be targeted in these elections?

P Chidambaram: We have specific intelligence that infiltrators will try to disrupt elections; will try to cause violence when the election process is on in this country.

CNN-IBN: Is Mrs Gandhi (Sonia Gandhi) or any of the SPG protectee or any of the VVIPs planning to cancel road shows? Any attempt being made to make them more secure?

P Chidambaram: Well I think their plans were drawn up after taking into account the state, the town and the time. That means that they will mostly address rallies and meetings but I can't rule out road shows. But mostly they will address rallies.

CNN-IBN: But they may not be addressing road shows? Mrs Gandhi, Rahul Gandhi…

P Chidambaram: Well I can't say. Depends on the state and the city they are visiting

CNN-IBN: Sir, we are in election time. Are you worried that the entire issue of the fight against terror has got politicised? You brought out a pledge protecting India from terror with very specific points. At the same time BJP claims the Congress is soft on terror. Your response is any party which is accused of communalism cannot fight terror. Is the whole battle against terror lacking a basic consensus?

P Chidambaram: A consensus can only be formed around certain principles, certain beliefs. Let's understand this terror issue. Since I took over I have made every attempt to depoliticise it. I called the Leader of Opposition, I called the meeting of chief ministers, I have visited states ruled by different parties… I have offered to visit states. My attempt has been to depoliticise the battle against terror. If someone wishes to politicise it for their own purposes, I feel sorry for them. Having said that now today you cannot fight terrorism unless you fight communalism. Without getting into the philosophy of all that please understand that much of the sources of terror and many of targets to terror are in any way linked to religion. If you are not willing to fight communalism you cannot fight terrorists. Therefore our manifesto says and I say that and I say that with all seriousness that only political parties which are prepared to fight communalism can fight terrorism. The battle against terrorism has to be fought on a secular platform.

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CNN-IBN: Do you think you had the right person in the Home Minister's chair for four and half years because you failed to control terror?

P Chidambaram: These are not the questions I can answer. All I am saying is the vacancies in all ranks put together exceeded over 1 lakh in all the states. After the chief ministers conference, after my goading them to take steps… every state is rushing to fill the vacancies.

CNN-IBN: The point is that you have been in power for five years and a lot of these steps that you are now saying you will initiate in the next five years. Was the last four-five years an opportunity missed in the war against terror for the Congress party and the UPA?

P Chidambaram: The problem of terror is not a problem that started in 2004 after this party came to power.

CNN-IBN: How have you changed as a Home Minister? Yesterday when we saw you with the shoe being thrown at you... you were remarkably unflappable. Most people thought that Mr Chidambaram is the tough guy, some even called you a bully. Have you changed as Home Minister from the time you were the finance minister?

P Chidambaram: I thought on this show you were the guys who were bullying me. I don't bully anyone. I try to do my job the way I think is the best. But in India if you want to get things done you have to be firm even while you are fair. It is too much of… what's that phrase in Hindi… chalta hai (It's all fine).

CNN-IBN: Too much of a chalta hai attitude?

P Chidambaram: Chalta hai attitude. If you want to get things done on time, you want to deliver one has to be firm. I have only seen pictures of Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel with a very grave demeanour. I don't think anyone called him a bully. In fact my demeanour is not half as grave as Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel's.

CNN-IBN: But if your party comes back to power and given a free reign an honest answer… what would you like? Finance, Home, something else?

P Chidambaram: Well let me answer the question. When our party comes to power in May 2009, not if… when the Congress party comes to power in May 2009 Dr Manmohan Singh will be the Prime Minister and he will allocate portfolios to whomever he chooses.

CNN-IBN: Sir what would you like? You preferred choice? Now that you have got to this pledge against terror are you committed to implementing this, getting this done?

P Chidambaram: My party is committed and my party's Home Minister is committed.

CNN-IBN: Mr. Chidambaram thank you very much for joining us on this special interview.

P Chidambaram: Thank you.