Racism may be behind attacks in Oz: Rao

Hello and welcome to Devil’s Advocate and the first television interview with the new Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao.

Karan Thapar: Foreign Secretary, let us start with Pakistan. Two fidayeen attacks in Kashmir within 24 hours; rocket attacks at Attari and Poonch; frequent firing across the international border; and all of this within the space of a week. How do you view these developments?

Nirupama Rao: With great concern, Karan. Terrorism and the whole phenomenon of cross-border terrorism, as it affects us today has not diminished in any manner. All the events you have seen over the last few days basically point to the basic and undeniable fact that the infrastructure of terrorism which operates out of Pakistan and territory under Pakistan control has not been dismantled and it continues to be directed against the Indian people. It affects ordinary people. Terrorism affects people like you and me.

Karan Thapar: The recent terrorist attack at Lal Chowk in Srinagar was clearly masterminded by handlers in Pakistan. Do you have any idea who they are? Are they the Harkat-ul-Mujahideen as the press suggests? Or could they be the Lashkar-e-Tayyiba who are responsible for 26/11 in Mumbai?

Nirupama Rao: All I would like to say, Karan, is that whichever group they may belong to they are essentially part of the same species. These are terrorism-spewing, violence-generating people who have an agenda, an agenda of violence and mayhem, to pursue.

Karan Thapar: And these are clearly, therefore, people operating out of Pakistan.

Nirupama Rao: Obviously.

Karan Thapar: Do you believe that they have some form of assistance or support from the Pakistani establishment or state?

Nirupama Rao: Let me put it this way. I think the experience over the last two decades would make it very clear to us that this has been an instrument of state policy which has been pursued by agencies within Pakistan.

Karan Thapar: And that is clearly the case in what happened in Kashmir the other day as well.

Nirupama Rao: We have very little or no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Karan Thapar: The telephone intercepts have the Pakistani handlers making it absolutely clear that they are seeking to revive violence and militancy in Kashmir. This happened days after President Zardari committed his own Government to fulfilling his father-in-law Zulfikar Ali Bhutto’s pledge for a thousand-year war to liberate Kashmir. Are the two linked?

Nirupama Rao: Militancy and violence in Kashmir is a longstanding phenomenon. We have seen it happen over and over again for many, many years now. And this has been accompanied by rhetoric, rhetoric directed against India, all forms and means of propaganda that comes across from the Pakistan side. So, rhetoric, militancy and violence, together they make a very combustible combination.

Karan Thapar: And President Zardari’s rhetoric is a facilitating or encouraging factor behind the sort of terrorism we have witnessed.

Nirupama Rao: Let me say that rhetoric hardly helps the situation. It poisons peoples’ minds.

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Karan Thapar: And clearly President Zardari’s rhetoric has been unhelpful, has been poisonous.

Nirupama Rao: Rhetoric is always unhelpful in situations such as these.

Karan Thapar: Many analysts believe that as President Obama’s Af-Pak strategy starts to put pressure on the Taliban and Al Qaeda in the West, they will seek to deflect attention by carrying out terrorist attacks on India in the East. Is that now starting to happen?

Nirupama Rao: The Af-Pak strategy announced by President Obama in December, the details of it that is, is directed against terrorism in our region. It seeks to eliminate the sources of terrorism in Pakistan. It is also focussed on the sources of terrorism which operate out of areas contiguous to Afghanistan. Having said that I would also say that the United States has been sensitised to our concerns about terrorism that operates from areas contiguous to our border with Pakistan against our people. And I believe the US is sensitive to these concerns.

Karan Thapar: Absolutely. But let us leave the US sensitivity aside. We can come to that later. Do you also think that as US pressure on the Taliban and Al Qaeda increases they might be tempted to deflect attention by carrying out terrorist attacks on India in the East?

Nirupama Rao: Karan, I would respond to that by saying that eternal vigilance is the price that we have to pay in all these situations, and we have to be constantly alert to this possibility.

Karan Thapar: Let us broaden our discussion a little. Amidst persistent political turmoil and relentless terror, how worried are you about the internal political situation in Pakistan?

Nirupama Rao: Terrorism and violence within Pakistan, and you have seen a rise in levels of both terrorism and violence within Pakistan, clearly reverberates beyond Pakistan’s borders. We said over and over again that we would like a secure, a stable, a peaceful Pakistan. Obviously violence and terrorism in Pakistan and manifestations of what you referred to as instability, concern all of us.

Karan Thapar: So, as Pakistan begins to appear to collapse under its internal problems, India becomes threatened as well.

Nirupama Rao: I am not going to make any prognosis on that. That is really not a part of my brief. But, as I said, obviously we are close neighbours of Pakistan.

Karan Thapar: And we are affected.

Nirupama Rao: We would naturally be concerned about instability or rise in levels of terrorism and increased violence within that country.

Karan Thapar: In November in Washington the Prime Minister said I quote, “I do not know who to deal with in Pakistan”. This was in the interview he gave CNN. Does this mean that you do not believe that President Zardari’s civilian Government are the right people to talk to?

Nirupama Rao: We deal with the Government of Pakistan. Obviously we have a diplomatic relationship with Pakistan. We are in touch with representatives of the Pakistan Government. For whatever reason, over and over again we are in contact. There are issues, humanitarian issues that exist between the two countries. So, that relationship continues to be transacted. The levels of dialogue obviously are much diminished after the Mumbai attacks.

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Karan Thapar: Before I come to the question of dialogue and the level of dialogue, how stable do you think President Zardari is?

Nirupama Rao: Again, I do not want to pronounce a judgment on the stability or otherwise of the leadership in Pakistan. We, as I said, would advocate and have advocated always the need for a stable, secure, a peaceful Pakistan because that helps the Pakistan people, it helps relations with India, it helps the neighbourhood.

Karan Thapar: The press, both in the West and in India, are beginning to speculate about possibility of another military takeover in Pakistan. Does the Government of India believe that that now looks more likely than it did, say, earlier on?

Nirupama Rao: Let me say that we consistently and closely monitor developments in Pakistan. It is our neighbour. It is a country that is next door to us. And as I said, events, developments in Pakistan are of relevance to the entire region. And obviously the growth of civil society, the strengthening of democratic institutions in Pakistan is good for our future.

Karan Thapar: So, clearly India would not favour a military takeover. You would not welcome one.

Nirupama Rao: Really, to speak out on Pakistan’s internal affairs I think would not be advisable.

Karan Thapar: On the other hand, the Pakistan High Commissioner in Delhi has said that it is unfortunate there is no dialogue between Delhi and Islamabad. Given that India at Sharm el-Sheikh committed itself to action on terrorism should not be linked to the Composite Dialogue process, and secondly that dialogue is the only way forward, is there a possibility that in this New Year 2010 we could see the resumption of dialogue?

Nirupama Rao: Dialogue between India and Pakistan is obviously the way forward for normalisation of relations and to resolve outstanding issues between the two countries. We in India have never turned our back on dialogue with Pakistan. But let me also add that terrorism is a standalone phenomenon, that terrorism affects the climate of dialogue. It affects the progress of this dialogue. And when Pakistan refers to the need to resume Composite Dialogue, we say you have to create the right atmosphere for that dialogue to move forward.

Karan Thapar: Can I put this to you? How much credit do you give Islamabad for the fact that there has been no major terrorist attack or strike since 26/11?

Nirupama Rao: I think it is too early to give credit or otherwise to Pakistan for what has or has not happened. Terrorism directed against India continues from territory under Pakistan control and from Pakistan. Look at what has been happening in Srinagar over the last few weeks. Look at the incidents of infiltration that have gone up despite the fact that this is cold weather. In winter traditionally we have not had so many incidents of infiltration, but those continue. They clearly point to the continuation of efforts directed against our territory, directed in order to foment violence in Kashmir and terrorist incidents.

Karan Thapar: So, clearly Pakistan needs to do more before India is convinced that it is effectively responding to the terror India faces which emanates out of Pakistani soil.

Nirupama Rao: Karan, let me say Pakistan can do more.

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Karan Thapar: And you are waiting for that before any talks resume.

Nirupama Rao: We wait and we hope Pakistan can do more.

Karan Thapar: What about the opinion expressed by some analysts that if India were to resume the dialogue process, it might strengthen Islamabad’s hand in delivering on terror?

Nirupama Rao: I know the school of thought and it I think especially has gained some currency in Pakistan in recent months. But let us look at it this way. Terrorism is not a tap you turn on and off because of the absence of or prevalence of dialogue. Dialogue does not flow from the barrel of the gun, Karan.

Karan Thapar: There is another problem which seems to be also occurring which is that the Indian Government’s refusal to talk seems to have hardened attitudes in Pakistan. The popular mood has turned to resentment. Some even say there is a simmering anger towards India. Does that worry you?

Nirupama Rao: It is a matter of concern that the people of Pakistan are being fed with slanted and biased accounts of what India’s attitude may be. India’s attitude is for dialogue and to promote peaceful resolution of problems with Pakistan. But, Karan, all of us who have grown up against the background of what has happened in this relationship, I think there is a sense of déjà vu that I get. And I feel a sense of sadness also that people, ordinary people in Pakistan, are being missiled by propaganda of this sort.

Karan Thapar: So, your position remains that we want further proof of Pakistan’s action on terror before the dialogue process resumes.

Nirupama Rao: As I said, Pakistan can do much more to deliver on this subject.

Karan Thapar: And must do much more.

Nirupama Rao: And must do much more.

Karan Thapar: Foreign Secretary, let us start this part with the increasing spate of attacks on Indians in Australia. Are you satisfied with the response of the Australian Government?

Nirupama Rao: We have been in close touch with the Australian Government since these attacks began. And unfortunately there has been a spate of these attacks, violence directed against innocent and hapless, I would say, young Indians who have been the target of such violence. But the Australian Government has been sensitised to our concerns and we have impressed upon them that they need to do more to address the cause of this violence and to bring the perpetrators to book because you need to restore the climate of confidence and security among Indians living in Australia.

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Karan Thapar: So, when you say you have impressed upon them the need to do more, that clearly suggests that they were not doing enough.

Nirupama Rao: I would say that the Australian Government has engaged with us closely in the wake of the attacks and there has been a continuing dialogue and communication. As you know, we have a good relationship with Australia. From the Australian side it is often defined as excellent, and we have shared that assessment. But we must not let these events cast a shadow on the relationship.

Karan Thapar: Let me quote to you the Indian Minister for Overseas Affairs Vayalar Ravi speaking on the 9th of this month. He says, “Why can’t they arrest them and put them behind bars and prosecute them? It is very unfortunate that things are not moving as they promised. It is very disturbing for all of us in the Government”. Clearly, Mr. Ravi feels that the Australians are not doing enough.

Nirupama Rao: I think there is legitimate concern and the Minister of Overseas Indian Affairs has expressed that legitimate sense of concern that we feel.

Karan Thapar: The MEA shares that concern?

Nirupama Rao: Obviously we share the concern in regard to a situation where our citizens are being attacked.

Karan Thapar: The Indian press are particularly concerned that the Australian Government is reluctant to accept that racism could be a substantive motive or cause behind these attacks. What is your assessment? What is the Government’s view? Is racism a factor?

Nirupama Rao: Let us look at the situation. You have had one community targeted. You have had persons belonging to one community targeted. And these attacks have kept occurring. There has been a certain pattern of these attacks. What the Australians tell us is that you could attribute this to urban violence, opportunistic violence, but that racism could also be an element in this. So, let us see. The investigations are going on. But we are concerned that it is just this one community that has been targeted.

Karan Thapar: Twice or thrice you have said that there is just one community that has been targeted and the attacks keep happening. Yet, your Ministry has advised the Indian press to exercise restraint. Do you believe that their coverage has been exaggerated or unbalanced?

Nirupama Rao: Let me say that the media feels the pulse of the people definitely and the people of India are concerned about the attacks that have happened in Australia. Having said that, I would also like to add that you have to place every reaction you make in the larger context. And there is a very large number of Indians who live in Australia, who made Australia their home over the decades. And you must ensure that while you must report without fear or favour, your responses, your assessments have to be calibrated and measured to the extent possible.

Karan Thapar: In other words, the press should keep things in context.

Nirupama Rao: In context, yes.

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Karan Thapar: Let us turn briefly to the United States of America. You mentioned America in Part-I. I want to pick up on something that you spoke about. As the Obama Administration’s Af-Pak strategy begins to work, now it is clear to everyone that its success is critically dependent upon the cooperation President Obama gets from Pakistan. Does that mean that there could be a time when President Obama becomes sensitive to Pakistan’s view that the terror India faces is linked to Kashmir? Does that possibility worry you?

Nirupama Rao: I am not worried about that because the United States is fully sensitised to our concerns on these issues. They consulted us closely in the run up to the Af-Pak strategy’s formulation and we continue to remain in close touch with our American interlocutors on this. America is well aware of India’s approach to these issues, our concerns about terrorism emanating from Pakistan, our desire to see a secure and stable Afghanistan; and that will involve tackling the sources of terrorism in our region. And America understands that Pakistan continues to provide safe haven to a number of terrorists operating in our region.

Karan Thapar: I suppose the key issue here is the following. Is President Obama looking to play a more assertive role in sorting out Kashmir than India would be willing to accept?

Nirupama Rao: Karan, President Obama and the American Administration told us over and over again that they have no desire to play a mediatory role on issues concerning India and Pakistan.

Karan Thapar: Even though he says different things in the letters he sends to President Zardari in November, just before his December Af-Pak speech; even though in his original Af-Pak speech of March he spoke about constructive diplomacy? Despite those contradictory statements or commitments, you still believe that he does not want to play a role?

Nirupama Rao: I do not believe there is contradiction here. The relationship between India and the United States is a strategic, global partnership. There is confidence, there is trust in this communication that India and the United States have. And the United States is well aware of our position on this.

Karan Thapar: My last question to you. Is there a danger that India and Pakistan could be re-hyphenated either because of the way the Obama Administration views South Asia or because of the way events are playing out?

Nirupama Rao: Karan, the logic of the relationship and the logic of the times defies your assessment. There is no question of this relationship being re-hyphenated, as you say. Our relationship with the United States is a mature relationship. It is one of the defining partnerships of the times as President Obama said so eloquently during our Prime Minister’s visit.

Karan Thapar: Foreign Secretary, a pleasure talking to you.

Nirupama Rao: Thank you so much.