Click to play videoKaran Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil's Advocate. Has the Government bungled this year's wheat procurement and given the spate of farmer suicides, is the country in the middle of an agrarian crisis. These are the two key questions that I shall put today in an exclusive interview to the Minister of Food and Agriculture, Sharad Pawar.
Minister, let's start with the confused wheat situation facing the country. According to your Government's revised figures, last year the country's wheat output was 68.6 million tonnes and the government's procurement was 14.7 million tonnes. This year, when the production is supposed to go up by 3 million tonnes, your procurement, compared to last year will be five million less and compared to your target for this year, seven million less - is that bungling?
Sharad Pawar: It is true that this year's wheat production is more than last year. And this year's wheat procurement is the lowest in the last couple of years.
Karan Thapar: Why?
Sharad Pawar: The reason is that this is the first year that we took up major decisions. One major decision that we had taken was that we had requested all the state governments that they should amend their Agricultural Produce Market Act. As far as Agricultural Produce Market Act is concerned, the farmer was supposed to sell his produce only in mandi and the trader was not allowed to buy produce from the farmers from anywhere other than the mandi. This time we have removed this condition in 18 states and Punjab, Haryana, Uttar Pradesh by administrative order. They have amended their laws and for the first time, traders got the opportunity to purchase farmer's produce.
Karan Thapar: I understand what you are saying, but the problem with your explanation is that you set a target of 16.2 million tonnes and you fail to achieve it by almost 50 per cent. Why set a target if you can't achieve it?
Sharad Pawar: There is no target. It is nothing. If the farmer's produce price crosses the MSP level, which means the Minimum Support Price and if the situation of 'distress sales' is created, then it is the responsibility of the state government to enter in the market and save the farmers. I am happy that he is getting a better price.
Karan Thapar: Whether he's got a better price or not is questionable and I will come to that in a moment's time. The problem from the Government's point of view is that you had a procurement target of 16.2 and you have only achieved 9.5. On the other hand, private traders have achieved up to six million tonnes themselves and as a result today, you have to import wheat, something you haven't done for seven years. And it is even possible that by the end of the year, you may be importing as much as five million tonnes, something clearly has gone wrong.
Sharad Pawar: No, nothing is wrong because it was a conscious decision that farmers should get their produce at a certain price.
Karan Thapar: If it was a conscious decision, then why set a target of 16.2?
Sharad Pawar: Who said a target was fixed? Nobody had fixed a target.
Karan Thapar: Your Ministry says so and all the papers say so. No one has refuted it.
Sharad Pawar: That is absolutely wrong.
Karan Thapar: So, the papers are wrong?
Sharad Pawar: There was no target. It is our responsibility to allow farmers to purchase his produce if the prices are going down.
Karan Thapar: Just to clarify, you are saying to me the Agricultural Minister that this year there was no target for procurement whatsoever.
Sharad Pawar: Not only this year, but for a number of years. Our only responsibility is to enter the market and purchase. This is the first year when the Government of India has entered the market and the farmers have refused to sell their purchase. They got a better price than the Government. As an Agricultural Minister I am happy and as a Food Minister, it is my responsibility to protect the consumer's interest and I will buy from anywhere in the world and I will protect that interest.
Karan Thapar: May be that is your explanation as a Minister speaking to me, but let me tell you what your saying. Your critics say that the problem began when you started making ill-timed announcements about wheat imports. You made your first announcement in February, when the crop was still standing on the ground; made the second at the end of March as the procurement process was starting and as a result, you created a false sense of scarcity, which fuelled excess purchase by private traders, which encouraged big farmers to hoard and the Government lost out on both counts. That is why, you haven't been able to achieve your procurement target.
Sharad Pawar: Procurement is not important. What is important is that the farmer is getting a good price.
Karan Thapar: Is he, that is the question.
Sharad Pawar: Yes, he is. For the first time, he got a better price than the MSP.
Karan Thapar: That is what you say. Let me quote to you Businessline. It says the second mistake that you made was to set a low procurement price of just Rs 650 per quintal. Before you could raise it, independent, private traders had stepped in to buy a large stocks, but they didn't do it at a much higher price. The difference between what you were offering and the prices at which they bought was barely Rs 30 or Rs 40 per quintal. If the price has gone up thereafter, it is the private middleman who has made money, not the farmer. So, the Government has lost out, the farmer hasn't gained and the middleman has gained.
Sharad Pawar: 30 or 40 per cent is not a small . If we study the annual price rise of the past four years, there has only been a Rs 10 rise. This was the additional price that was paid by the Government of India to the farmers. If he got Rs 30 or Rs 40 more, it is a substantial rise.
Karan Thapar: It is a substantial rise because the actual price per quintal in the market and in the mandis today is almost Rs 100 or Rs 200 more. It is the middleman who is making the profit, not the farmer.
Sharad Pawar: No, the farmer themselves got between Rs 750 and Rs 800 in Madhya Pradesh and Gujarat.
Karan Thapar: I am telling you the second part of the story - the farmer hasn't gained, the private trader has gained and the Government has lost. But the Government has lost in a second sense as well. Today, because you were not able to meet the procurement target, you have to import wheat from other countries at a price that is 42 per cent above what you were offering your own farmers.
Sharad Pawar: That is also absolutely wrong. When we discuss about the Public Distribution System, it is my duty to see at what price I am providing the food grains to the consumer.
Karan Thapar: Your import price from the Australian Wheat Board is Rs 997 per quintal and the final procurement price you were offering the Indian farmer is Rs 700. That is a difference of Rs 297, which is 42 per cent.
Sharad Pawar: You are wrong again.
Karan Thapar: These are figures from the papers.
Sharad Pawar: Listen I am sitting here as a representative of the Government, I know better than the papers. Ultimately, I have to see at what price I am selling the product to the consumer. Suppose I purchase wheat from Punjab and Haryana and if I have to sell it to the entire South India, my yearly storage charges and my transport charges cost me Rs 1,150 to Rs 1,160 per quintal.
Karan Thapar: So, you are saying that it is cheaper to import than to buy from an Indian farmer?
Sharad Pawar: My import price from Australia in southern India is somewhat close to Rs 950.
Karan Thapar: Except for the fact that the money is not being made by the farmer. If it was, I could understand the policy because then the farmer would be the gainer. But the money is being made by private traders. As i told you, Businessline says that when the Government was offering Rs 650 per quintal, long before you raised it to Rs 700, the private traders stepped in and bought at about Rs 686 and Rs 670. Today, those private sellers are re-selling at Rs 800. They are making the money, not the farmer.
Sharad Pawar: You see, the farmer definitely got the money this time. Secondly, one should know which are the actual days of the procurement. Actual days of the procurement, in true sense start after Baisakhi. Baisakhi starts on the 14th or the 15th. On the 15th the farmers celebrate Baisakhi and go for harvesting and from the next day, they start sending their stuff to the market. I have assessed the arrivals for the three days - 14th, 15th and the 16th - and noticed that the arrivals were less than last year. Immediately, we consulted the Chief Ministers of Punjab, Haryana and Uttar Pradesh and all of them suggested that there should be a rise or bonus by Rs 50. The Government of India accepted it immediately, without announcing it, on the very fourth day. It was not late.
Karan Thapar: Every expert in the business says that before you raised the price to Rs 700, most of the farmers had already sold out to private traders. That is why I am saying to you that the farmers made very little money - although they made some, but very little - and the profit has been made by private traders. Today, as a result, not only are you importing at a price that the people say higher than price that you were offering to the farmers, but you are probably importing from the same foreign companies who beat you to procurement in India. The Australian Wheat Board was a major partisan in India except for the Government. Today you are importing from the Australian Wheat Board, you are a double loser.
Sharad Pawar: It is my responsibility to protect the interests of the consumer, and for the sake of protecting the interests, I have to build up my buffer stock, and essentially in southern India. For the sake of building the buffer stock, in the case of an eventuality, I have no choice, I’ll import from anywhere.
Karan Thapar: But why could have built up the buffer stock by acquiring wheat from Indian farmers had you begun with a better price. Since you didn’t, you had to end up building the buffer stock by importing wheat. Today, as a result, your own Chief Minister in Punjab is critical of you. He has publicly said that he’s going to advice Punjab’s farmers next year not to grow wheat. And if he does that, 60 percent of your wheat crop could be in danger.
Sharad Pawar: You see, wheat and rice have created a serious situation in Punjab. In fact I myself advocating Punjab and Haryana governments that they have to give serious thought, and that they have to break this circle.
Karan Thapar: But at the moment the Punjab Government is critical of you. Amarindar Singh on record has said that the price that you were offering, even the raised price of 700, is barely 50 percent of the input of the Punjab farmer. He’s deeply critical and that’s why he says next year he will advice Punjabi farmers next year not to grow wheat.
Sharad Pawar: He himself has congratulated me and the Government of India…
Karan Thapar: Well, he said something else to the press.
Sharad Pawar: You see there was a phrased advertisement that the Government has given, complementing the Prime Minister, Finance Minister and me.
Karan Thapar: If the situation is really in your control, and you are really happy as you claim to be, then why today, Friday, is the Hindu newspaper saying on the front page that you intend to cut the allocation of wheat through the public distribution system? And you intend to raise the price at which wheat is sold.
Sharad Pawar: Yes, because in the past six-seven years, not a single price was raised.
Karan Thapar: These are short-term measures because you know you have a crisis on your hands.
Sharad Pawar: Not at all…
Karan Thapar: You are raising the price and cutting allocation, at the same time. This is panic reaction.
Sharad Pawar: Not at all a panic reaction, this particular decision was taken six months back.
Karan Thapar: So you are confirming that these decisions will be implemented at the Cabinet meeting which will happen on Friday.
Sharad Pawar: That I don’t know, what the Cabinet will ultimately…
Karan Thapar: But you are going to propose it.
Sharad Pawar: That issue is also not before the Cabinet now.
Karan Thapar: It’s not before the Cabinet?
Sharad Pawar: It’s not.
Karan Thapar: So it won’t happen this week, but it could happen later?
Sharad Pawar: No, this decision was taken by the Cabinet six months back.
Karan Thapar: And then postponed, but the Hindu says it’s going to be taken again today. Will the Cabinet today decide about cutting allocation and raising prices?
Sharad Pawar: No I don’t know, the issue is not before the Cabinet today.
Karan Thapar: Could it come up in the next one week or ten days?
Sharad Pawar: Why won’t it come, why not bring it?
Karan Thapar: So you are not ruling it out.
Sharad Pawar: Why should I rule it out?
Karan Thapar: This is proof you have a crisis.
Sharad Pawar: Not at all, you see, in the last six years, there has been no rise, there is a rise in procurement and storing charges, and if there is no rise the public distribution price, how can you continue like this?
Karan Thapar:Expect for the fact that the allocation and price that you are going affect, the Hindu also said that you are going to put a ban on the export of wheat. The two measures together suggest you have a crisis.
Sharad Pawar: No, there is no ban for export.
Karan Thapar: Then you guarantee that there will be no ban even in the next eight-10 days?
Sharad Pawar: No, there is no ban on export.
Karan Thapar: So its only the price and the allocation?
Sharad Pawar: In fact, we are seriously thinking that we would like to take an approach, where impost and export should be liberalized.
Karan Thapar: But this will happen at the same time as the possibility that in the next ten days you might also cut allocation of wheat on the PDS and raise the price.
Sharad Pawar: No, definitely, as I said, that decision was taken six months back.
Karan Thapar: But the implementation of it is what I’m talking about, because it was then postponed. Now you are in a position where, maybe not in today’s Cabinet meeting, but in the next week or ten days, these decisions could be implemented.
Sharad Pawar: These decisions have to be taken today or tomorrow. In fact it has already been delayed by two years. One has to take bold decisions, there is nothing wrong with it.
Karan Thapar: And this you are saying is not proof that you have bungled wheat procurement.
Sharad Pawar: I can’t understand what kind of nonsense statement you are making. What is this bungle? It is a simple thing. Our design is that our farmer should get a price; they got a good price, second, it is our desire, that if in the past five years we have not increased the price of wheat or rice, it is our responsibility to reduce subsidy, and that’s why we had taken these decisions.
Karan Thapar: All right.
Sharad Pawar: Though the decision had been postponed we had to implement them. Thirdly, for a number of years the quantum which was given in the PDS was 20 kilo. But because there was tremendous stock and it was rotting, the previous governments took it from 20 to 25, 25 to 30…
Karan Thapar: Now you are going to bring it down.
Sharad Pawar: It has to be brought down.
Karan Thapar: All right, I’ll let you have the last word on that because it was only fair that you should explain what you are saying, particularly when I am accusing you of bungling.
Mr Pawar let us turn to the wider agricultural and agrarian situation facing the country. Professor MS Swaminathan, the father of Green Revolution in the country, says that India is facing second agrarian crisis. Professor Utsa Patnaik says India has become the republic of hunger. Do you agree with them?
Sharad Pawar: I don't say that we are a republic of hunger. But it is true that investment in the agricultural sector in the last five-seven years, both public and private, have come down. This has affected the sector.
Karan Thapar: Lets very quickly see if you agree on the facts before we actually discuss what they amount to. To begin with compared to the 1980s agricultural production has virtually halfed. For the last 10 years the rate of growth of agricultural growth has been less than two per cent. Last year it was less than one per cent which means that it was substantially less than the rate of population growth. Do you accept that?
Sharad Pawar: It is true. In fact prior to last year it was even less. But this year we have achieved 3.9 per cent.
Karan Thapar: Quite right. This year you have reached 3.9 per cent but the average for the last 10 years is under two per cent and last year it was 0.07 per cent, which is very low.
Sharad Pawar: Yes, last year it was less than one per cent.
Karan Thapar: The second set of facts. As a result of this the average per capita consumption of food grain per Indians has fallen from 177 kgs per person in the 1980s to just about 155 kgs per person today. Worse still UNICEF has pointed out that India has the largest number of malnourished children. It is nearly 56 million out of a total of 140 million all over the world. do you accept that as well.
Sharad Pawar: Yes, Yes. I don't know the exact figures but malnourishement is a problem in certain parts of the country but simultaneously there are studies that indicate that food habits are changing. Usage of food grains and cereals are coming down.
Karan Thapar: I should point out that Prof Utsa Patnaik and Mr Devender Sharma, two of the most renowned authorities on food production and nutrition intake, dispute that the food intake pattern is changing. They say the reason that the consumption of grains has gone down and gone down substantially is because it is not affordable for them. It is not that they are eating other things instead they simply cannot afford.
Sharad Pawar: I don't know. But if there are no changes in prices for the last six years how can anybody make that type of statement.
Karan Thapar: Because people don't have the job that will give them the money to buy the food. That's the problem. Unemployment has led to hunger and not change of pattern of food.
Sharad Pawar: I don't know. I am not in a position to say.
Karan Thapar: The conclusion that people come to from the figures that you have just accepted are three simple things. One that for 10 years Indian population has been growing faster than India's food production. Second is that people are eating less and third that perhaps 200-300 million people go to bed hungry every single night. A food minister does that embarrass you?
Sharad Pawar: No, it is not fully correct. That problem is there. But for last several years there was the problem of surplus food grains in the godowns.
Karan Thapar: But it was not going to the people. It was lying in the godown and rotting. Or it was being exported to countries where it was used as animal feed but Indian were not getting it.
Sharad Pawar: See in the last five years you must have seen the quantum that was there for 20 kilos has increased to 35 kilos. It has increased. What does that show?
Karan Thapar: It shows that in fact the need for food at subsidised cost has grown. It shows that in fact hunger is not being fully and adequately met. That's all.
Sharad Pawar: No. The subsidy about four years back was Rs 2, 700 crore and this year the budgetary provision for subsidy is Rs 6,500 crore. That itself shows that the Government of India wants the food to be available at a cheaper rate.
Karan Thapar: That's the Governments intention,. Maybe that is partly met. Some would disagree with you.
Let me point something else sir. Prof Swaminathan, the chairman of National Commission of Farmers appointed by you, has said an agrarian crisis is on our hands. Perhaps the worst manifestation of that crisis is the farmers suicide and nowhere are those suicides more worse than your home state Maharastra. In Vidarbha you have over 550 suicides since last June and you had 77 suicides in April alone and they are happening at the rate of two or three a day.
Sharad Pawar: If you study the last 10 or 20 years the total suicides in this country and I have got figure from 1995 at least when four ministries of Government of India started publishing total figures related to suicides. There were two reports. One was about all the suicides and the other was about agricultural suicides.
Karan Thapar: And you are saying that agricultural suicides are 15 per cent of general suicides. Therefore your ministries believe that this is not excessive.
Sharad Pawar: No, No. It is not that. In a country of a billion people about 1 lakh commit suicide every year. It is a normal thing that we have been seeing for a number of years.
Karan Thapar: Absolutely. It is a normal thing if suicides are happening because of normal depression in a normal course of life. Agrarian suicides by farmers which are a result of agrarian distress is not normal. And if the agriculture minister turns around and says that farmers taking there life is a normal thing to do, you sound very unsympathetic and uncaring.
Sharad Pawar: It is not a question of being unsympathetic. The farming community knows what my approach is. And in whole my life I have done many things in the area of agriculture.
So there is not much change per cent wise in the suicide by the farming community. You referred to Vidarbha. In fact I have studied each and every suicide in some of the states.
Karan Thapar: Can I interrupt as time is against us. Two months ago on April 11 after you had met a group of ministers, you had said that in two months you would come out with a package to tackle farmer suicide. That period of two months is almost over. In fact there is just one week left. The package has not been announced. Why are you dragging your feet?
Sharad Pawar: Why should we announce?
Karan Thapar: The farmers are dying....
Sharad Pawar: Package is ready. And what is a package. Firstly we have studied the reason for suicide was that money was not available for crop loan. Farmers take loan from private money lenders who charge a very high rate of interest.
Karan Thapar: Mr. Pawar suicides are continuing in your home state and in the district of Vidarbha at a rate of two-three a day. You are not announcing the package. You seem to be in no hurry. You don't even seem to care.
Sharad Pawar: Package is going to provide money for irrigation. Irrigation project will take at least three to four years to complete.
Karan Thapar: What about the immediate measures to ensure that farmers have the credit that they need. The advance bonus that the Deshmukh Government cut in October which even Prof Swaminathan has demanded should be restored. None of those immediate measures have been taken.
Sharad Pawar: If you study the cotton price that was given by the Deshmukh Government last year and year before last year was the highest in the country.
Karan Thapar: This year is is lower. He has cut it by Rs 500.
Sharad Pawar: He has accepted the national level price.
Karan Thapar: Let me put to you the last question. Many people would say that Sharad Pawar does not care about suicides. He is not in a hurry to tackle the problem. Do you or don't you?
Sharad Pawar: Anybody who knows about the country and has any feelings for the common man, definitely he will be sympathetic. That is the reason that we have taken so many steps.
Karan Thapar: So you don't have any guilty conscious that you are not doing enough.
Sharad Pawar: What is this guilty conscious? This situation has been for last many years and Manmohan Singh's government has taken maximum decisions on this issue.
Karan Thapar: All right farmers will to judge whether they belive that. Mr Pawar thank you very much.
(For updates you can share with your friends, follow IBNLive on Facebook, Twitter and Google+)
displayed with permission. Use of the CNN name and/or logo on or as part of CNN-IBN does not derogate from the intellectual property rights of Cable News Network in respect of them.