Click to play videoThe Election Commission has served a notice on Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi for allegedly supporting the murder of Sohrabuddin Sheikh in a fake encounter. Modi has replied that he doesn’t support fake encounters and his speech was a political response to Congress chief Sonia Gandhi’s statement. Did Modi fall into Sonia’s trap? Karan Thapar asked Ravi Shankar Prasad, the BJP’s national spokesperson, on CNN-IBN.
Karan Thapar: Mr Prasad, is it fitting that the Chief Minister of Gujarat should thump his chest with pride at the killing of Sohrabuddin Sheikh, when his own government—in March—admitted to the Supreme Court that it was a death as a result of a fake encounter, which means it was cold, calculated murder?
Ravi Shankar Prasad: Let me explain this. There's a context to it. Madam Sonia Gandhi goes to Gujarat and starts talking about the 'Merchant of Death' - maut ke saudagar.
Karan Thapar: So that explains it? That you justify murder, yourself?
Ravi Shankar Prasad: I don't say that. The matter is in court, the court will take cognisance. Narendra Modi has explained that he is never in support of fake encounters.
Karan Thapar: Well, I am afraid in this statement, he was in fact asking the audience to congratulate alleged murderers. Men accused of murder were being asked to be congratulated.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: No, there are two things, Karan. Let's be very clear about it - fake encounters are incorrect, the position is there.
Karan Thapar: But he was praising this and it's a fake encounter
Ravi Shankar Prasad: I'm sorry, he was making a political response in the manner in which Digvijay Singh says that Gujarat is being run by Hindu terrorists and Sonia Gandhi talks about the maut ke saudagar, merchants of death.
Karan Thapar: Hang on a moment, just listen to what you're saying. Sonia Gandhi and Digvijay Singh say something silly and your Chief Minister in response says something even worse? What sort of logic is that? They make a mistake, he makes a bigger one? They cut off their heads, he's going to cut off his own?
Ravi Shankar Prasad: I think this question was asked to Narendra Modi, he has very clearly stated that he is never supportive of fake encounters but yes…
Karan Thapar: But he is supporting a fake encounter!
Ravi Shankar Prasad: No, no.
Karan Thapar: He has supported the killing of Sohrabuddin Sheikh which his own government has admitted was cold, calculated murder!
Ravi Shankar Prasad: I am differing with you only on this that he was giving a political response in the election atmosphere of Gujarat.
Karan Thapar: He was giving a political response by justifying murder? How does that respond to Sonia?
Ravi Shankar Prasad: No -
Karan Thapar: Criticise Sonia, criticise Digvijay Singh, don't defend the cold, calculated murder of Sohrabuddin Shaikh. How do the two equate?
Ravi Shankar Prasad: The reply is like this: In Kashmir, so many terrorists are killed by the security forces -
Karan Thapar: So you kill a few more who don’t deserve to be killed? That justifies this -
Ravi Shankar Prasad: Karan, allow me to speak, please. Suppose there are hundred killings, 99 are justified, one may be wrong. But that doesn't mean you lionise, you iconise someone who is a terrorist! What I am simply telling you -
Karan Thapar: Just a moment, I am simply telling you that Sohrabuddin Shaikh has not been identified as a terrorist by the court. He is accused, I accept, but he is not found guilty. He has several charges, I accept, but not one conviction. So how can the Chief Minister, who is the upholder of the law, defend the cold-blooded murder of a man who, as yet , is not convicted?
Ravi Shankar Prasad: First of all, no one is defending any cold-blooded murder.
Karan Thapar: The Chief Minister was!
Ravi Shankar Prasad: Narendra Modi has already stated very clearly and categorically he does not support fake encounters. That's on record.
Karan Thapar: Hang on a moment, I want to quote to you what he said. This is not just a defence of cold-blooded murder; here, he is almost assuming that he did it and he is challenging Sonia to do something about it. He says, "If I did anything wrong, then Sonia's government can hang me!" He's accepting his own responsibility!
Ravi Shankar Prasad: Sorry Karan, you are seeing too much into a political point of response made at that point of time when Mrs Gandhi accuses him of -
Karan Thapar: You are excusing it too lightly.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: No! No, sorry, I don't.
Karan Thapar: You're whitewashing it.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: And by the way, the whole thing starts about Sonia Gandhi talking about merchants of death! Digvijay Singh saying Gujarat is being run by terrorists!
Karan Thapar: I concede she had no right to use such language, but does that justify a Chief Minister going even worse?
Ravi Shankar Prasad: No, there's no question of going worse.
Karan Thapar: One assumes he is a responsible man who knows how to react. He hasn't just overreacted, he has put himself in the embarrassing position of contradicting the Supreme Court, of being guilty possibly of contempt of court. He's going to be hauled up on Monday by the Supreme Court, and perhaps admonished, if not punished!
Ravi Shankar Prasad: Let me tell you very clearly and categorically, Narendra Modi has already explained very clearly that encounters are one thing, fake encounters are another, "I never support fake encounters," he explained that.
Karan Thapar: So then why support the killing of Sohrabuddin Shaikh?
Ravi Shankar Prasad: No, no, he has not, but I would certainly make a point for our viewers and that is: How much will you keep on lionising, iconising persons like Sohrabuddin?
Karan Thapar: But Sohrabuddin was not found guilty of anything!
Ravi Shankar Prasad: No, sorry!
Karan Thapar: Your point doesn't hold, you're being unfair to the memory of a man who was killed in cold-blooded murder. You are labelling a man a terrorist, he was never found to be one!
Ravi Shankar Prasad: Karan Thapar, you cannot justify the litany of cases pending against him, the nature of his criminal -
Karan Thapar: But he wasn't found guilty! A man can be accused, wrongly accused, it is possible.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: I am asking you a question. All right, you may have a point he was not declared a terrorist -
Karan Thapar: Thank you, you conceded it.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: No, no, I am not! But would you apply the same logic for all the terrorists in Kashmir?
Karan Thapar: But this is not a terrorist!
Ravi Shankar Prasad: Sorry, I differ with you because the final word is still awaited.
Karan Thapar: All right, let's bring up another aspect of what Mr Narendra Modi has done. Not only did he, in fact, justify cold-blooded murder but a day earlier on the fourth of December, speaking in Mangrol, he said to the audience, "Tell me, what should be done to a man who stores illegal arms?" And then the audience replied, "Kill him, kill him!" I put it to you that that is an open exhortation to violence. It is deliberate provocation on communal lines. Once again, he was guilty of that!
Ravi Shankar Prasad: Karan Thapar, how would you react to Sonia Gandhi saying in Gujarat, when Gujarat is on the path of development, that here 'merchants of death' preside?
Karan Thapar: Criticise Sonia Gandhi back. Point out to her that she is as guilty of other crimes, point out that. But don't ask the audience to kill people!
Ravi Shankar Prasad: Sorry, she is the presiding deity of the ruling establishment in the country!
Karan Thapar: Does that excuse exhorting audiences to violence?
Ravi Shankar Prasad: No, no! Come on, he was just trying to exchange things -
Karan Thapar: Exchange things?
Ravi Shankar Prasad: Please listen to me. The issue is terrorism, that is the bottom line. When Mrs Gandhi goes and says that Gujarat is soft on terrorism, the hard fact remains that in the last five years, only one terrorist violence has taken place because they know that if they go to Gujarat, it is a tough government under Narendra Modi.
Karan Thapar: The hard fact is that Gujarat has perhaps some of the most tense communal relations in the country, and what Narendra Modi was doing by this sort of provocation, was not just irresponsible, it was inflammatory.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: I am happy you have raised that question. 44 riots have taken place in Gujarat under Congress regime. I come from Bihar, the worst communal riots took place in Bhagalpur, 2,500 people were killed. 3,000 Sikhs were massacred in Delhi, on which the final word is yet to come, Jagdish Tytler has got to be saved by hook or by crook. Karan, what I am simply saying, riots are unfortunate, they need to be condemned. But to do politics, do commerce with riots is something equally bad.
Karan Thapar: I am pointing out that the attitude of Narendra Modi in giving out justice to people who suffered at the hand of riots is so poor, that this is what the Supreme Court, on the 12th of April, 2004 - Justice Raju Doraiswamy and Justice Adhijit Prasad in their written judgements - note my words - written judgement on the Best Bakery, said: 'The modern-day Neros were looking elsewhere when Best Bakery and innocent children and helpless women were burning.' Then what do they add? 'These Neros were probably deliberating how the perpetrators of the crime can be saved or protected.' That's what the Supreme Court thinks of Narendra Modi. So, if Sonia calls him a 'Maut ka Saudagar', she is simply following in the steps of the Supreme Court.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: The reply is this: I am not here to say anything on the judgment of the Supreme Court, though I still question your premise that Nero in judgement was called. Supreme Court took a position, Supreme court shifted the trial, Supreme Court is entitled to it. But Karan Thapar, let me tell you -
Karan Thapar: 2108 cases are, out of 4256, constituting 49.5 per cent were reopened by the Supreme court, a clear sign they don't believe Narendra Modi is even-handed to Muslims, they don't believe he can deliver justice.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: I differ with you, let me give you another example. Take the case of 2005 - Lalu Prasad gets a collusive report from a retired Supreme Court justice Banerjee about Godhra, that Mkarsevaks set fire from inside - is it fair? Is it just? Who is doing commerce in riots? That's the point I am saying.
Karan Thapar: But is this the way to respond?
Ravi Shankar Prasad: No, I'm sorry! Let me explain to you!
Karan Thapar: You may be right that Lalu played politics, you may be right that Sonia had no business to call Narendra Modi a "Maut ka Saudagar', but is the answer to incite violence, is the answer to endanger innocent people's lives?
Ravi Shankar Prasad: Karan Thapar, I have with me a statement of the present Home Minister of UPA Government, date 11th of May, 2005, in the Rajya Sabha, where he has stated 926 people were killed, 200 still are missing, and let me just tell you, nearly 200 people in Gujarat were killed by police firing, the highest in a riot. Riots are unfortunate.
Karan Thapar: Do you know something? It's not just that people were killed in riots, it's not just that cases were reopened by the Supreme Court because justice hasn't been done under Modi, the National Commission for Minorities last year did a report which showed that over 5300 Muslim families continue to live in 46 camps, 5 years after what happened, without water, without sanitation, without even ration cards.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: I seriously question that premise of Harcharan Singh Josh, a member of the Commission who was a Congress nominee.
Karan Thapar: The man who was head of the Commission is now Vice-President of India, today.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: No, no, let me explain.
Karan Thapar: It was his report.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: Don't bring it to the Vice-President.
Karan Thapar: He was head of the Commission.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: But I have every right to question the partial, biased report! By the way, who is doing what on Nandigram? Who is doing what on Nandigram? So many Muslims…
Karan Thapar: So, are your standards set on other people's failings? Sonia fails, you equate her? The Left fail, you want to equate them? What sort of a party is the BJP to be lower than everyone else?
Ravi Shankar Prasad: Karan, please listen to me. There is a mindset which is operating against Narendra Modi. Teesta Setalvad will not speak on the issue of Nandigram, so many Muslims were killed and raped. She'll maintain a conspicuous silence about killing in Kashmir, only Gujarat. Shabana Azmi will not open her mouth, Javed Akhtar will never come into any juloos.
Karan Thapar: What about K T S Tulsi? K T S Tulsi was your own paid advociate in the Sohrabuddin case. K T S Tulsi has publicly gone on record to say he is embarrassed by the Chief Minister's stance and the statements he made. He's in fact calling for the Chief Minister to apologise. He was your advocate!
Ravi Shankar Prasad: You are being grossly unfair to me to ask about the comment of a senior professional colleague, about whom I have high personal regard. I will not comment about that. It is entirely open.
Karan Thapar: I am not asking you to comment on his conduct, I'm saying how embarrassing it is for the state government if their own advocate does not have confidence in them.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: Please listen to me, Karan Thapar. Narendra Modi has already explained I don't support justified fake encounters.
Karan Thapar: But I do support the killing of Sohrabuddin Shaikh in cold-blooded murder.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: You are unnecessarily quoting out of context a political response in a political situation.
Karan Thapar: And I will go further and incite innocent people to violence by exhorting them to take action that is perhaps indefensible.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: Sorry, I differ from you. Who is provoking, who is insulting Gujarat is evident from what Digvijay Singh is saying, that Gujarat is run by Hindu terrorists. Who is inciting violence if not Madam Sonia Gandhi, that 'maut ke saudagar' rule here.
Karan Thapar: So, if Digvijay and Sonia make a mistake, Narendra Modi will make a double mistake? That's the level of Narenda Modi's intelligence - he is not even sophisticated, if your defence is to be believed!
Ravi Shankar Prasad: No, to be very honest to you, it is entirely your judgement to make your comment. We know your views about Mr Narendra Modi, it is not new. For the last five years they've been coming. Karan, for once, at least media should stop this commerce of communalism, okay?
Karan Thapar:The Election Commission has issued a notice to Narendra Modi, and this what it says: references to Sohrabuddin and linking his name to terrorism amounts to indulging in activity which may aggravate existing differences, create mutual hatred and cause tension between different communities. Modi is in serious trouble; he may even be debarred. What is your possible defence of his behaviour?
Ravi Shankar Prasad: The BJP on December 2 filed a complaint against the utterance of Sonia Gandhi to the Commission—no action was taken. The BJP on December 4 filed an application before the commission through fax, courier against (Congress leader) Digvijay Singh for saying that Gujarat is ruled by Hindu terrorists. The point is we have the highest regard for the Election Commission as a Constitutional functionary.
Karan Thapar: Is that what Mr Advani means when he accuses them (the commission) of double standards? Is that high regard?
Ravi Shankar Prasad: Yes, because our complaint was there and then an objective view could have been taken.
Karan Thapar: You are probably right and have every justification to criticise the Election Commission, but Narendra Modi was prima facie guilty of provoking violence and of stirring communal hatred. Nothing that Sonia said could be claimed to do that—she was rude about Narendra Modi but that is not barred by the model code of conduct. What Modi did is barred, that is why they reacted against him.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: I strongly differ with your highly biased understanding of the model code of conduct. Calling Gujarat is run by maut ke saudagar (merchants of death) is equally provocative to violence.
Karan Thapar: She said people who were in charge of the government were ‘maut ke saudagar’.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: It is equally provocative.
Karan Thapar: It is provocative of the BJP, it is not provocative of community relations.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: That is your understanding.
Karan Thapar: That is commonsense understanding.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: Sorry, the model code of conduct, provocation for violence, doesn’t say that. When Digvijay Singh says Gujarat is being run by Hindu terrorists…
Karan Thapar: He didn’t say that.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: He did. It meant that—you are going into substance.
Karan Thapar: You are not just adding meaning, you are creating a substance he never said.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: Sorry, Karan Thapar, you are reading so much into the sentence of Narendra Modi.
Karan Thapar: You are creating so much that you could be accused of fiction.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: Come on!
Karan Thapar: Do you realise the extent of revulsion that Narendra Modi has created in the media and the middle class by his statement about Soharabuddin Sheikh?
Ravi Shankar Prasad: Let me tell you this. The larger context of the fight against terrorism and the larger context of his record in containing terrorism in Gujarat will be appreciated. The media perception—a part of media—of Narendra Modi is not new.
Karan Thapar: You blame the media, but let me quote what your ally has said. Bihar Chief Minister Nitish Kumar has said: “For Modi it is improper to talk about this, especially when elections are around. It is a clear attempt to divert voters’ minds.” Your own ally—he can’t survive without you—is critical of you.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: The reply is two fold. One: if what media has been saying about Modi since 2002 would have been believed he never would have won. He delivered a good government, which even the Rajiv Gandhi Foundation and the Planning Commission appreciate.
About Nitish Kumar: he is a good friend, senior leader and our ally but he is not contesting with us in Gujarat.
Karan Thapar: He is campaigning in Gujarat and he made this statement in Gujarat.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: He is campaigning for the JD(U), and we don’t have an alliance with Nitish Kumar in Gujarat.
Karan Thapar: You have repeatedly said that Modi’s defence is that he was provoked by Sonia Gandhi. Does it ever occur to you that Sonia laid a trap and Modi walked into it with his eyes wide shut?
Ravi Shankar Prasad: No, that is your assessment. I would say on the contrary the Congress has nothing to deny the record of governance of Narendra Modi.
Karan Thapar: Precisely! That is why she laid the trap. She found it difficult to campaign on the record of Modi as the developing Chief Minister and that is why she laid a trap. Modi took it with his eyes wide open. She pushed him into Hindutva, and he went running.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: I would differ with you, because he is still talking about development. Did he deny the Jyotigram Yojna (electricity scheme for villages) of three-phase lines to Muslim villagers?
Karan Thapar: Compared the rallies he has got: 20,000 compared to 2 lakh for Sonia. May be Modi has actually realised that his campaign in terms of development is not cutting any ice—he has got audience of 20,000 compared to her 2 lakh, and I am quoting ‘The Hindu’ here—and therefore he decided let me fall back on Hindutva, let me rile people’s emotions.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: Then you have not done the statistics of the crowds Modi is getting. I personally went to campaign thrice, all my meetings had 5,000 plus people, even in rural areas. This includes my meeting—a small BJP worker.
Karan Thapar: According to ‘The Hindu’, even the policemen guarding Modi are telling people that Sonia’s rally with 2 lakh coming is a clear sign that parivartan or change is in the air.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: Well, I can tell you that I have talked to 20 bureaucrats, who are working there, and they are saying Modi is coming back.
Karan Thapar: I will tell you what is happening in Gujarat. A Chief Minister is getting worried, increasingly getting desperate and switching from development to Hindutva because he suddenly realises that he has to stir the most vicious emotions to keep himself in power. This is Modi desperate.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: I will reply to it like this. Terrorism is a issue, development is a issue and there is a problem in a part of media and secular parties. The moment you talk about terrorism, Hindutva comes into being. Terrorists are killing Hindus and Muslims and today Pakistan is feeling the heat of terrorism, therefore it is high time we tackle terrorism with a firm hand—and Narendra Modi’s record in that connection is impeccable.
Karan Thapar: I put it to you: Narendra Modi suddenly realising that winning may not be easy, it may not even be possible—it is desperate Modi that is hitting out at Sohrabuddin Sheikh. This is a sign that he knows he has got a problem.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: The reply to your question is to be read in the ‘Hindustan Times’. In Jamnagar Muslim councilors have said we will vote for Modi because of his record of development.
Karan Thapar: Which is why of course you don’t have a single Muslim candidate contesting in your name. And for 27 years you haven’t done it.
Ravi Shankar Prasad: And how many (candidates) the Congress has got? Come on!
Karan Thapar: Ravi Shankar Prasad, a pleasure talking to you.
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