We don't want POTA in Modi's hands: Sibal

Is the UPA Government weak on terror or is that an unfair perception? That is the question Karan Thapar puts to Union Minister of Science and Technology Kapil Sibal on Devil’s Advocate.

Karan Thapar: There’s a widespread belief that the UPA has failed to rise up to the challenge of terror. What can you say that convinces people that you’re on the top of the job?

Kapil Sibal: I don’t think that the governments in the last 10-15 years have built the necessary institutional framework needed to deal with terror. We have been concentrating too much on laws. Laws are fine to deal with terrorists but not necessarily with terror.

Karan Thapar: So you’re saying political system has failed to build relevant institutions?

Kapil Sibal: Yes. For example, we need a joint intelligence institution mechanism, which allows the flow of information from one state to another.

Karan Thapar: Are you saying that the whole institutional political system has failed to live up to the challenge of terror?

Kapil Sibal: Yeah, I think so. And admittedly, there is an intelligence gap and intelligence systems have failed. When Kargil happened, nobody knew that people had come into our country. Parliament and recent attacks too prove that.

Karan Thapar: For the last four and a half years, your Government has been in charge and people turn round and say that the UPA has let them down.

Kapil Sibal: Quite frankly, if you look at facts and numbers, the record of the UPA Government—in terms of terror—has been much better than the previous governments. There were more civilian deaths in the previous government: between 1999 and 2003 there were over 4,000 deaths. In our regime, though, there were about 1,670 deaths. Also, the number of terror incidents were a lot higher when loh purush (BJP leader L K Advani) was in power.

Karan Thapar: But today the public feels vulnerable and scared.

Kapil Sibal: That is because of late more cities have been attacked than in the past.

Karan Thapar: And repeatedly, day after day…

Kapil Sibal: That’s correct. We have to mobilise ourselves and make sure that those institutions are in place. It is a very serious issue and we have to deal with it seriously.

Karan Thapar: People say that over a period of time they have lost faith in UPA’s leadership and dynamics.

Kapil Sibal: I don’t agree with you. I think terror must be met with institutional strengthening. Individuals don’t matter when you deal with terror. It’s the intelligence network and the flow of information on the ground; it is setting up systems at Centre that deal with state governments.

Karan Thapar: When the public perceives that things have gone wrong in such a big way, perhaps it’s time for someone to accept moral responsibility. Do you think a time has come for the Home Minister, with the greater good of the common man in mind, to voluntarily step aside?

Kapil Sibal: I do not think we should personalise this.

Karan Thapar: But people are looking for some sense of moral ownership.

Kapil Sibal: Did Advani resign when Parliament was attacked?

Karan Thapar: What about Krishna Menon in 1962? He did.

Kapil Sibal: That’s alright. We did that in 1962, but did any president or prime minister of the UK resign when London was attacked? The call for Patil’s resignation is a reaction. Right now we need to focus on strengthening our institutions.

Karan Thapar: Let’s come to the whole range of ideas that have been canvassed as ways in which the UPA can strengthen its response to terror. To begin with, people are suggesting that you need a minister of state for internal security. Do you think that would be a good idea?

PAGE_BREAK

Kapil Sibal: First of all, it’s the Prime Minister’s prerogative how he organises his government. I don’t think I should comment on it. I certainly should not comment on public perception.

Karan Thapar: Except that when the Home Minister is perceived to be weak, there’s a need for a strong man below him to back him up. That would give people confidence.

Kapil Sibal: As I said, governments can’t be run on public perception.

Karan Thapar: But governments fall on public perception. Okay let’s take a second issue that has been canvassed and discussed. People are saying that India needs a federal-level agency that can work nationwide, which doesn’t just investigate but possibly also prosecute terror crime. Would you be in favour of that?

Kapil Sibal: Quite frankly, we need a federal-level agency, but the kind of politics that we have, would we ever get it? I doubt it very much.

Karan Thapar: Were you questioning the fact that the laws can’t be passed or that Constitution doesn’t permit it?

Kapil Sibal: No, the Constitution will permit it provided the states agree.

Karan Thapar: Surely you could enforce this on the basis of the Kartar Singh judgement passed by the Supreme Court.

Kapil Sibal: You’re talking about Entry 8 of List 1. It can be done but I don’t think so. We’re in a coalition era. There are lots of political parties that are a part of the coalition.

Karan Thapar: The BJP has publicly declared that they too are in favour of it. L K Advani, Arun Jaitley and Narendra Modi are in favour of this. Reach out to them.

Kapil Sibal: The Prime Minister has also said let’s look at it. So all this will be examined and is a part of the Moily recommendation committee. The committee hasn’t recommended a federal agency but it’s certainly a part of the Home Minister’s note.

Karan Thapar: The problem with your answer is that on one hand you say Prime Minister and you are in favour of a federal-level agency, on the other hand you seem to only see problems in bringing it about and don’t seem to be keen to reach out to the BJP.

Kapil Sibal: At the moment I think what we need to do is to set up a strong institutional framework. We shall work on a federal-level agency but it’s not going to come about tomorrow. Elections are going to take place in the next six-seven months. (So till then) we should strengthen our systems and start talking to government as to what best procedures we can set up to deal with terror, including this (federal agency).

Karan Thapar: So you’re saying you’ll work on a federal agency but it’s not going to happen tomorrow and it’s not going to happen before the next elections?

Kapil Sibal: Yes. It’s something we need to work on, think about. Debate, and if it’s the best way then we’ll do it, or maybe allow larger powers to the CBI by amending the Delhi Special Police Establishment Act — that’s another way out instead of a federal agency.

Karan Thapar: But when you say it’s something to think about and debate, it means it may never happen. In India, when things get debated they usually get postponed.

Kapil Sibal: No. These are real recommendations on the table. For example, should we amend the Delhi Special Police Establishment Act, expand its powers, make it more independent, or should we go for a federal agency—and CBI is a federal agency.

Karan Thapar: How long is the Government going to take to make up its mind, because there is a perceived sense of crisis in the country. The country needs an answer quickly, but you’re talking about a debate and postponing it till after the elections.

PAGE_BREAK

Kapil Sibal: This is not something like you put litmus paper in a solution and you get the results.

Karan Thapar: Is there is no sense of hurry?

Kapil Sibal: There is an enormous sense of hurry. We are having meetings. Why do you think we are having discussion?

Karan Thapar: But you’re saying those decisions would be materialised after the elections. That’s six months.

Kapil Sibal: We must start a process. Things don’t happen without a process and they shouldn’t.

Karan Thapar: Is this answer is going to reassure people?

Kapil Sibal: Of course, if we show them milestones that this is what we are doing. You probably don’t know this but on the issue to deal with terror, a special group of ministers has been sitting, and recommendations have already been made. We have decided to set up institutions and now we need to implement that decision.

For example, a multi-agency centre, where all the agencies like the Intelligence Bureau, RAW (Research and Analysis Wing) and the Delhi Police establishment would be there has already been set up. Now we need to operationalise Joint Intelligence Task Force. This is what this government has done.

Karan Thapar: Certain things have happened — you’re saying a Joint Intelligence Task Force and a multi-dimensional centre have happened. But you’re still debating and discussing federal agency, and that may not happen till after the elections.

Kapil Sibal: Yes. Many things are happening and we are in the process of doing it.

Karan Thapar: The reforms commission has said that India needs a comprehensive and effective legal framework to deal with all aspects of terrorism. In other words, it needs a new set of laws. Are you in favour of new laws?

Kapil Sibal: First of all, this is the administrative reforms commission’s recommendation. There is already a second group which is sitting to examine each of those recommendations. I am a part of that group. We’ve been meeting from time to time and these decisions are very soon going to be taken.

Karan Thapar: Let me quote to you what the PM said: “We are actively considering legislation to further strengthen the substantive anti-terrorism law.”

Unfortunately, (Information and Broadcasting Minister) Priyaranjan Dasmunsi has gone public and said that India doesn’t need new laws and that our laws are sufficient.

Kapil Sibal: Here you’re misinterpreting Dasmunsi. He said we don’t want POTA but there are other areas which need strengthening.

Karan Thapar: You’re saying I’m misinterpreting Dasmunsi, but I think I’m not but leave that aside. Your Home Minister on August 10 through this programme said our existing laws should be sufficient. Now the PM is talking about something else. The government has changed its stance in 40 days?

Kapil Sibal: I believe the existing laws perhaps are the harshest laws anywhere in the world but some new elements can be added on to those laws and those elements

Karan Thapar: Which means that when the Home Minister said that the existing laws were sufficient, he was wrong?

Kapil Sibal: I don’t know when he made that statement.

Karan Thapar: August 10.

Kapil Sibal: That was probably his point of view at that point of time. At the same time, the Home Minister has also publicly said that if the laws are required to strengthened, they would be strengthened.

Karan Thapar: This is why people get perplexed and disheartened because the PM and the Law Minister say contradictory things about whether the law should be changed or not.

Kapil Sibal: Karan, you take one statement here and one statement there…

Karan Thapar: How else should we go about it? Should we not go by your statement?

PAGE_BREAK

Kapil Sibal: I didn’t say that you shouldn’t not go by my statement. Situations evolve and they change.

Karan Thapar: Within 40 days?

Kapil Sibal: Why not? Delhi blasts took place a couple of days ago. You are crying that we change the law overnight. Hasn’t the situation changed?

Karan Thapar: But for three years, the BJP has been saying your laws are insufficient. You’ve woken up to that reality today.

Kapil Sibal: I’m sorry; I don’t agree with you. The BJP has been talking about POTA and we have rejected that and we reject it even today. We don’t want POTA to be an instrument in the hand of Narendra Modi to target communities.

Karan Thapar: Except for the fact that some of the recommendations of the administrative reforms commissions come very close to POTA.

Kapil Sibal: Not at all.

Karan Thapar: First of all, administrative reforms commission is talking about strengthening and toughening bail provision and detention. Are you in favour of that?

Kapil Sibal: First of all, Veerappa Moily has not said so. You look at the administrative reforms commission.

Karan Thapar: I have…

Kapil Sibal: He says unless the police reforms take place, the same provision of bail should continue.

Karan Thapar: But when they do, he’s talking about strengthening on the basis of when police reforms take place. But they are in your hands to do.

Kapil Sibal: Why, for the last 60 years police reforms have not happened. They should have happened. When you have a police agency and you have trust in that agency, all this can happen and that’s what the reforms say.

Karan Thapar: The strongest recommendation of Veerappa Moily is that confessions to police should be accepted as evidence. Are you prepared to go down that road?

Kapil Sibal: He has not said that. Again he said, unless there is reform—

Karan Thapar: What he has said very clearly is that the confessions made under the law to the police should be accepted as evidence and he’s said specifically that they do not have to be confessions made to magistrates.

Kapil Sibal: No. He has not said that. I’ll show that to you after the interview. He said that at the moment confessions to the police should not be accepted unless the entire police system is reformed and confessions only to a magistrate should be accepted. That’s what it says and I can show it to you if you want.

Karan Thapar: Let’s for argument’s sake—since we can’t prove it the other way round in the middle if an interview—I accept your interpretation. The ability to interpret these reforms is in your hands. Do it and toughen the laws.

Kapil Sibal: It’s in the state government’s hands as well. Police reforms are not something we can do at the central level. We have tried it for many years. The state chief ministers do not want these reforms.

Karan Thapar: So what you’re indicating to me in this interview is that on a series of issues where you’ve got substantive recommendations from administrative reforms commission, you’re going to find technical reasons which are actually in your hands to tackle.

Kapil Sibal: I’m surprised you say that. The opposition of a state chief minister is technical according to you?

Karan Thapar: But the system of police reforms can be instituted by you.

Kapil Sibal: It’s a state subject.

Karan Thapar: But you can initiate the procedure.

Kapil Sibal: We have initiated it not once but several times and it’s continuing. We want those reforms but the state chief ministers do not want it, and you know it.

PAGE_BREAK

Karan Thapar: The people are looking to the Government for a sense of reassurance, leadership and determination. What they heard from you is it really reassuring?

Kapil Sibal: I don’t think the Government tells its policies because there is an interview going on the electronic media. The Government is exceptionally serious. Immediately after this (Delhi serial blasts on September 13) people were caught, people were killed and a nexus was broken. This has never happened in the past.

Karan Thapar: I can accept that you can’t announce on TV cameras what you are going to do and certainly the Government can’t announce it within 24 hours. But the Government can indicate its resolve and determination by speaking in one voice. That one clear, crystal voice is not being heard.

Kapil Sibal: Can anyone speak in one voice on an issue on which everybody has different voices in the whole country. We went to the last elections on POTA; we won that election. POTA was repealed because of the atrocities that were committed.

Now that today some incidents have taken place which are far less than during the NDA regime, that is the only reason we should re-impose POTA. I strongly refute it.

Karan Thapar: The administrative reforms commission may not being going back to POTA but it is strengthening the laws to make up for the fact that even today Government is perceived to be weak.

Kapil Sibal: Have we said that we are not strengthening the laws? The Prime Minister said we are looking at it, but that doesn’t mean that we will decide it tomorrow. Careful consideration has to given to these things. Governments are not run by knee-jerk reactions.

Karan Thapar: The audience listening to this interview will say it may give the Government one month or two but they have to set a deadline by the time which they will do it. It can’t be open ended.

Kapil Sibal: Before the end of the term of this Government it shall be put in place.

Karan Thapar: That is six months.

Kapil Sibal: How many months do you want? Should I say 15 days! When I say before it can be one month, it can be one and half months or it can be less than two months.

Karan Thapar: The problem is that when you get to end of the term of this government, you won’t be in a position to push anything.

Kapil Sibal: Therefore I said once the notification is issued, it can’t happen. So obviously it has to be before the notification that all this will happen.

Karan Thapar: And what if, God forbid, there are more terror incidents?

Kapil Sibal: Can anybody stop terror? Terrorists choose their time and place. Were you able to stop attacks on the legislative assembly, Akshardham temple? Were you able to stop all that? Were you able to stop the attack on the Red Fort?

Karan Thapar: Are you doing enough to reassure the country?

Kapil Sibal: This is why we need to build institutions—and that is not going to happen overnight also. America is the most powerful nation in the world; they have all the technology, but were they able to stop from their terrorists being killed in Iraq.

Karan Thapar: This is not Iraq. Isn’t too late to build institutions? Shouldn’t you have started three-four years ago?

Kapil Sibal: All this doesn’t happen overnight. These institutions are not set up overnight.

Karan Thapar: I leave the last word to you, Mr Sibal. A pleasure talking to you.