Click to play videoHow seriously does the Delhi government take the Blueline menace? To what extent is the Commonwealth Games Federation correct for holding Delhi responsible for the lack of preparation for the Commonwealth Games that take place in just three years' time. Karan Thapar raised these issues with Delhi CM Sheila Dikshit on Devil’s Advocate.
Karan Thapar: Mrs Dikshit, let's start with the trauma created by Delhi's Blueline buses. Already this year, over a hundred people have died, and yet earlier this month, you said, "We requested and pleaded with them with folded hands, but they are never going to improve." Are you pleading helplessness?
Sheila Dikshit: Well, for the moment, yes. Because we cannot - the easiest thing to do is to take all the Blueline buses off the roads. We cannot do that because that would disturb commuters completely.
Karan Thapar: But there's a lot more that you can do and you're not doing.
Sheila Dikshit: Like, for instance?
Karan Thapar: I'll give you an example. To begin with, most accidents are caused because drivers compete with each others dangerously to pick up passengers…
Sheila Dikshit: That's right, that's right.
Karan Thapar: - a situation compounded by the contractor system of operation and the fact that perhaps as many as 95 per cent of the drivers are not qualified for the job they are doing. Now, why doesn't your Department of Transport step in and rectify this?
Sheila Dikshit: No, we did—we do step in, we do penalise them, we do send them off the roads, we do punish them. But, it's not possible—and I'll plead here—it is just not possible to look at each of the 4,800-odd buses that are Blueline buses that travel on the street, because it is not possible to check up every driver.
Karan Thapar: Let me -
Sheila Dikshit: And they change the driver, they give it to the cleaner, they give it to that one, they are rushing forward.
Karan Thapar: You say you are doing every thing you can, but Haroon Yusuf, your minister, has gone on record to say, and I quote, "They will not mend their ways until we become very strict." What prevents him from becoming very strict?
Sheila Dikshit: Now, you see, the action on the roads has to be taken by the police, the checking has to be done by the police, and the police did take very strong action about a week-10 days ago, when they caught a driver and put him behind bars under culpable homicide -
Karan Thapar: That's just one instance -
Sheila Dikshit: Wait a minute!
Karan Thapar: That's one instance.
Sheila Dikshit: Now, after that, they've got scared, they've really got scared. Now, that is a -
Karan Thapar: Let's look at what the department can do, what Haroon Yusuf can do and he's not doing. Let me give you an example.
There are, as you said a moment ago, 4,800 Blueline buses in Delhi. In July, in fact, you had given a different figure (3,400) but that's immaterial. 826 of them, which could be as much as 25 per cent, have speed governors they've tampered with. It is the duty of the Department of Transport to certify fitness. Why are these buses being permitted to operate?
Sheila Dikshit: These are bad, bad, bad governors. Now, the new buses we are getting - are in-built, they have inbuilt governors.
Karan Thapar: But the old buses are still running!
Sheila Dikshit: No, no, no, wait a minute. The old buses will be faded out, Karan, but it will take two years.
Karan Thapar: But in between many, many people -
Sheila Dikshit: No, no, it'll take two years.
Karan Thapar: And in between, another 100-200 people could die!
Sheila Dikshit: No, no, I hope not, I really hope not.
Karan Thapar: But it's a simple question, why -
Sheila Dikshit: And why do you conclude this -
Karan Thapar: Why Haroon Yusuf is not checking these buses and stopping them?
Sheila Dikshit: Why do you - these buses are being checked, but they, apparently, are quite incorrigible. I have met with their federation at least five times, pleading with them, "Please! Lives are very important for us," -
Karan Thapar: Cancel the license!
Sheila Dikshit: No, you can cancel - you know, the licenses? You know what the system has been going on? The license is given to X, then is passed onto B, passed onto C.
Karan Thapar: But you determine the system, you're Chief Minister, change it!
Sheila Dikshit: Yes, that's exactly what we're doing -
Karan Thapar: Change the basis on which bus permits are issued!
Sheila Dikshit: We're now going to get an owner of at least a hundred buses, a fleet of a hundred buses, whether it is a corporate or a co-operative which is going to be respectable and accountable.
Karan Thapar: But don't you see? You're now coming up with solutions, after perhaps 300 people in the last few years have died. Should this not have been thought of and enacted three to four years earlier?
Sheila Dikshit: No, maybe you're right, but you see it's not easy to get CNG buses in India. It's not easy to get CNG buses for Delhi, it is not -
Karan Thapar: But it is easy to check fitness, it is easy to check driver qualifications, it is easy to check, in fact, the basis on which permits are issued!
Sheila Dikshit: The fitness is checked but by the time -
Karan Thapar: Not effectively, not effectively
Sheila Dikshit: No, no, no, no -
Karan Thapar: 25 per cent of the buses are unchecked
Sheila Dikshit: Karanji, by the time they are out of that fitness room, they tamper the -
Karan Thapar: So re-check and withdraw the permit
Sheila Dikshit: Yes, we do that. We withdrew permits, 700 permits, 600 permits, 400 permits -
Karan Thapar: Then let me give you another example how you could - beyond just checking permits and beyond changing the system - another example how you could tackle the Blueline menace: run an effective DTC service!
Sheila Dikshit: That's right.
Karan Thapar: The problem is, the Supreme Court in 1998 asked you to increase the number to 10,000. Even today, it is languishing under 3,500. For nine years, your government has ignored the Supreme Court instructions.
Sheila Dikshit: No, I must beg to differ with you. Bureaucratic and government systems do take a long time.
Karan Thapar: Nine years?
Sheila Dikshit: We get a lot impatient with them, we ourselves feel very impatient. But, buses are coming by the year 2009-10. We will be having -
Karan Thapar: That is three years away
Sheila Dikshit: But Karanji, there are not enough manufacturers of CNG
Karan Thapar: But the Supreme Court asked you to increase -
Sheila Dikshit: There are only two manufacturers.
Karan Thapar: But the Supreme -
Sheila Dikshit: The Supreme Court asked us, but the Supreme Court also asked us to turn to CNG when there was no CNG! So we had to ask for time.
Karan Thapar: But could you not have imported buses?
Sheila Dikshit: If I import a bus and it cost me twice the amount that a bus -
Karan Thapar: What's the value of life on the roads of Delhi?
Sheila Dikshit: What is the value of the - ?
Karan Thapar: The life on the roads of Delhi? People are dying
Sheila Dikshit: No, don't say that! You are making out as though there was an epidemic of people dying - that's not true! And please remember one thing: the buses may be wrong many times, or perhaps more times than necessary, but there are people also who are undisciplined. Sometimes, you have a bus going, you have a motorcyclist coming or a three-wheeler coming or a car coming, overtaking from the wrong side.
Karan Thapar: People are responsible for their own deaths?
Sheila Dikshit: Yes, sometimes, yes.
Karan Thapar: Mrs Dikshit, do you know why the Bluelines get away?
Sheila Dikshit: No, no, no.
Karan Thapar: Let me give you an example yet again -
Sheila Dikshit: No, no, Karanji, you must hear me out -
Karan Thapar: - the DTC colludes with them
Sheila Dikshit: - because I must tell you that people have to learn to walk carefully, people have to learn to drive carefully, and people have to learn to be disciplined.
Karan Thapar: You sound as if you're saying that those killed by Blueline buses are responsible for their own deaths.
Sheila Dikshit: No, no, I'm not trying to say that.
Karan Thapar: You sound it
Sheila Dikshit: No, no, I am not saying that. But you have to also look that if a bus is going on the road at a speed of 40 or 50 or whatever it may be, and somebody comes right in front - there are cases like that also!
Karan Thapar: Let me interrupt you there now. You have made your point. Let me interrupt you
Sheila Dikshit: No, I have not made my point.
Karan Thapar: You have
Sheila Dikshit: 28 different kinds -
Karan Thapar: Let me now put something to you. The DTC now have to take action to provide a suitable alternative to the Bluelines.
Sheila Dikshit: Yes.
Karan Thapar: Far from competing, your DTC, which is run by your government, is in fact colluding with the Bluelines to give them a free hand
Sheila Dikshit: There is collusion.
Karan Thapar: There is. Let me quote what there is, let me quote what the DTC inspectors have-
Sheila Dikshit: There is collusion between the police, there is collusion between the police, there is collusion between -
Karan Thapar: Let me finish
Sheila Dikshit: No, no, no, no!
Karan Thapar: You haven't let me finish
Sheila Dikshit: There is collusion, there is corruption, there are bad things happening, there is indiscipline, so -
Karan Thapar: And you're not stopping it, why?
Sheila Dikshit: Of course, we are trying to stop it -
Karan Thapar: Trying is one thing, you're not succeeding. Why? Why aren't you succeeding?
Sheila Dikshit: We have, we have.
Karan Thapar: No, you haven't
Sheila Dikshit: We've brought in new buses -
Karan Thapar: Let me quote to you what the DTC has told Tehelka
Sheila Dikshit: All right, will you give me a little time?
Karan Thapar: Let me finish! Let me quote!
Sheila Dikshit: I can't do it overnight, Karanji. If you want to say your say and not listen to what I have to say, I'm afraid I might as well interview you.
Karan Thapar: How much more time do you want?
Sheila Dikshit: I want two-two-and-a-half years.
Karan Thapar: Your term will be over by then
Sheila Dikshit: Doesn't matter, doesn't matter!
Karan Thapar: In other words, people will continue to die because Sheila Dikshit needs two years to tackle the menace of Bluelines, she can't do it quickly.
Sheila Dikshit: Yes! If there is somebody who could tackle it before that, if Mr Karan Thapar can tackle it before that, you're welcome. Please walk into this parlour, come on and set the whole thing right.
Karan Thapar: Okay, you want time. What about something else? It's not just that the DTC is colluding - you wouldn't let me read the quotation, never mind.
Sheila Dikshit: DTC is not colluding.
Karan Thapar: Yes, they are.
Sheila Dikshit: It's the inspectors in the police!
Karan Thapar: They are members of DTC. Listen to this, this is what a DTC inspector told Tehelka: "I allow DTC buses out of the depot five minutes after the scheduled time. In the meantime, the Blueline buses of the route take up all the commuters." They are deliberately colluding to give the Bluelines a free hand. As a result, people die.
Sheila Dikshit: So therefore, there is something wrong with the system, right?
Karan Thapar: And you made the system
Sheila Dikshit: No, wait a minute. I did not make the system, I inherited it.
Karan Thapar: But you've been Chief Minister for 10 years
Sheila Dikshit: Look, we know that this is happening but we need an alternative. We need a better alternative. I can't go around spending money.
Karan Thapar: Has this been a priority for you?
Sheila Dikshit: Yes!
Karan Thapar: Have you simply forgotten the instructions given by the Supreme Court to increase the number of DTC buses?
Sheila Dikshit: No, no, it has always been a priority. I admit bureaucratic systems are very slow. I admit that there is a reluctance on many people's part, but it does not mean that we are not aware of it, and we are conscious of it. And I can also tell you that we are determined that it will get all right in two years' time.
Karan Thapar: Okay, it will only get all right when the intricate network of bribery that allows DTC bus operators, owners and drivers to get away with their crimes stops. But far from stopping, it's become a business.
Just six weeks ago, in October, the Indian Express revealed that a gentleman called Nawab Khan ran a company called N K Tours and Travels, which charges 2,500 per bus per month to provide protection from the police. Yet, till the last six weeks, your government has taken no action against Nawab Khan. How can you talk of breaking the system?
Sheila Dikshit: No, no, I would like to ask you a question. Those citizens, those newspaper people, those people in the media - electronic and otherwise - who find such cases, must go to the CVC, must go to the CBI
Karan Thapar: Have you contacted Neeraj Chauhan, the journalist who broke the story for the Indian Express?
Sheila Dikshit: No, I've not
Karan Thapar: Should you not have? He has provided proof, should you not follow it up?
Sheila Dikshit: No, if he has provided proof, please bring it to us and give it to us, why put it in a newspaper?
Karan Thapar: Why can't you go to him? People are dying.
Sheila Dikshit: No, no, look Karan Thaparji, if you are only sitting here to put me on the dock, I'm afraid I'm not going to get intimidated by you. If he had found all these papers with him, we also saw in the newspaper, a bus saying a Nawab Khan person has been punished. But…
Karan Thapar: Nawab Khan isn't
Sheila Dikshit: Nawab Khan, or something like that, that bus person.
Karan Thapar: Nawab Khan still absconds, he is still free.
Sheila Dikshit: All right, if he is free then the law of the land allows him to be free. Therefore -
Karan Thapar: It's your job as Chief Minister to administer the law of the land
Sheila Dikshit: No, no, I am terribly sorry, it's not my job to go around catching people. It's not my job to go policing, please! And remember one thing: Wherever it's been brought up, I always tell people, please, we want to be an open government. If you find a case, come to the CBI, come to the Transport -
Karan Thapar: But the problem is the message that is going across is 'Come to me and tell me', but then you do nothing! The government keeps on waiting for someone else to act.
Sheila Dikshit: No, no, that is not true. If I did nothing, if we didn't do anything, if we didn't try and curb it all, then you would be having more than hundreds of people. I say that it should not have happened. I can assure you that many among you and me are as indisciplined as anybody else.
Karan Thapar: That doesn't help the case of those who've lost their children or their parents in tragic deaths as a result of Blueline buses.
Sheila Dikshit: Of course it doesn't! And I stopped the Blueline buses for half a day to see if they came on line. Then I got thousands of people stranded on the roads "Please bring the Blueline buses back!"
Karan Thapar: My last question on this subject: What is the day by when the Blueline buses will be phased out?
Sheila Dikshit: The very date when are able to get an alternative for them. We have received -
Karan Thapar: But that's a shifting date, you know. You're not fixing it.
Sheila Dikshit: No, no, I can't fix it because it depends on production, it depends on tendering system, it depends on availability,
Karan Thapar: So they could be there for years and years and years!
Sheila Dikshit: We are wanting five -
Karan Thapar: We're going to live with Blueline buses till we are all dead, it seems.
Sheila Dikshit: We are wanting 5000-6000 buses in one year's time. We can't get them because we are just not available.
Karan Thapar: My last question is do you really think that hearing this interview, the people of Delhi, who run the risk of being killed by Blueline buses will be reassured by their Chief Minister? Or will you increase their sense of fear and panic?
Sheila Dikshit: No, I would like to reassure them that we are there to do everything that is possible within us, but I'd like you also - that is, the people of Delhi - to please be carful, please do not go in front of these buses. They are dangerous. Your life is as precious to you as it is to me, to your family and to me, because for me, it pains me no end to see any morning if there's an accident.
Karan Thapar: Mrs Dikshit, let's come to the Commonwealth Games, which will take place in Delhi in less than three years' time. Now the Commonwealth Games Federation has even dropped all attempt to hide its deep anxiety that Delhi is far from ready for these games. Where does the blame lie?
Sheila Dikshit: Where did you meet the Confederation? We are in touch with the Confederation all the time - just listen to me. Everything has started and it will be finished before the Games. I can assure you of that -
Karan Thapar: That's what you're saying
Sheila Dikshit: - whether we remain there or we do not remain there. Now, listen to what I have to -
Karan Thapar: Let me quickly for the viewer point out why I am asking this question. Mike Hooper, the CEO of the Commonwealth Games Federation, has announced that from hereon he is going to spend two-thirds of every month in Delhi to ensure that work happens
Sheila Dikshit: That's what they do.
Karan Thapar: And never before has such a drastic step been taken.
Sheila Dikshit: No, Mr Cooper told me this is their practice, they always do it, he is welcome to stay here, we have no problems with that. You can come and monitor them, we have no problems.
Karan Thapar: He may be polite when he says that. You let me quote what the BBC said. This is an exact quotation: "The CGF are clearly hoping that Hooper's presence in Delhi will allow them to keep a close watch on things and ensure that Indian political and organisational problems do not continue to hamper preparations."
Sheila Dikshit: They will not continue.
Karan Thapar: But they are.
Sheila Dikshit: Lot of them have been sorted out. You have no idea what has been sorted out, everything will get sorted out. Everything will be in place, we are confident of that. After all, it is not just Delhi's prestige, it is not the Chief Minister of Delhi's prestige. It is the entire nation's prestige! So, please rest assured.
Karan Thapar: Which is why I am asking the question India itself will get a bad name if Delhi slips up.
Sheila Dikshit: No, India will not get a bad name. People are big doubting Toms in Delhi - we have a lot of them. And they always question why is this. Now -
Karan Thapar: All right. Let's then -
Sheila Dikshit: Now, what is worrying us - I'll tell you very frankly what is worrying us - is the hotel accommodation. That is why we brought in the bed-and-breakfast law immediately.
Karan Thapar: And do you know how short you are on hotel accommodation?
Sheila Dikshit: Yes, we are short on rooms.
Karan Thapar: HVS Hospitality Services TNO2007 Report says that you are going to fall short by 7,500 rooms, which is 21 per cent!
Sheila Dikshit: Karan, yes, I agree with you there, but please remember that that is also a projection.
a) We've got this bed-and-breakfast thing going on - wait just a minute - hotel sites have already been auctioned, now it is -
Karan Thapar: And Mayawati has taken back what she auctioned in NOIDA. Which is why the projection is going to be on the lower side.
Sheila Dikshit: I am not concerned with what she does or what she doesn't.
Karan Thapar: But it effects you because those are rooms
Sheila Dikshit: No, no, no, no, we've given sites here. They all ought to be built. They've been told by DDA, by the Lt Governor, who himself is following up the whole thing -
Karan Thapar: Mrs Dikshit, I have to interrupt and point out that out of 19,000 new rooms that are being allegedly being built, only 56 per cent of them are under construction and more importantly, of the 8,650 that are not under construction, 30 per cent will probably never be constructed because Mayawati has cancelled the auction of sites.
Sheila Dikshit: I am not going to challenge your figures.
Karan Thapar: They're correct - that's the problem! That's the real challenge you have!
Sheila Dikshit: I don't even want to challenge your pessimism. But we are doing the work, we are going to complete it, we'll do it well, and I am sure that India will be proud of the Games.
Karan Thapar: Well, at the moment it sounds like a pious hope. Let me raise with you a second problem. It's not just hotel accommodation, that's falling woefully short, but even the Commonwealth Games Village, which is to be built on the banks of the River Jamuna is being adamantly protested against by the Jamuna Jaagya Abhiyaan. They are determined not to let you go ahead.
Sheila Dikshit: No. They are protesting, no doubt. They've had presentations with the GoM, they've had presentations with me, they've had presentations with whoever they wanted to. We are going ahead with construction.
Karan Thapar: But construction hasn't even started!
Sheila Dikshit: It has. Have you been to the site? Have you been there?
Karan Thapar: Yes, there is no construction that you can really see.
Sheila Dikshit: What? What do you mean you cannot see? Digging is going on, work is going on.
Karan Thapar: That's all that's happening
Sheila Dikshit: The plans have been laid out and I'd be happy if Mr Cooper would like to come here. We have no problems. After all, they are the Federation, they have the right to be here but I can assure you -
Karan Thapar: Mrs Dikshit, you have less than three years and Games Village hasn't begun. Will you finish in time?
Sheila Dikshit: Mr Karan Thapar, Karanji, I am not going to challenge the future.
Karan Thapar: The future is your challenge, that's the problem!
Sheila Dikshit:No, I am only going to humbly suggest to you that if you're going to imagine that the future is going to be bleak and dismal, I am going to imagine that the future's going to be fine, and absolutely on the dots.
Karan Thapar: I am glad that you use the word "imagine", because that's what it is, imagination. Let me point out to you that one of the reasons Abuja was overlooked in favour of Glasgow for the 2014 Games is because the Commonwealth Games Federation is so panic-stricken by Delhi that they don't want to take the risk of entrusting a third-world city a second time. That's the extent to which the Commonwealth Games Federation is worried.
Sheila Dikshit: No, no, these are things which people in the media, people like you, always like to imagine.
Karan Thapar: The Federation itself is saying so!
Sheila Dikshit: Don't. The Federation is working with us, it is not saying it to me.
Karan Thapar: Out of desperation
Sheila Dikshit: Out of desperation they come to you? I'm glad that you lend them a shoulder! But I can tell you one thing: they've not said -
Karan Thapar: Are you worried that two or three months down the road, they may actually withdraw the Games?
Sheila Dikshit: In fact, Mr Cooper was with me the other day, he never said anything. He said, yes, now I feel confident things will move, and I can tell you, I told him, that in India we work, but I can assure you -
Karan Thapar: My last question: are you very confident?
Sheila Dikshit: Yes, I am
Karan Thapar: - they won't withdraw the Games two or three months from now because your government has failed to deliver?
Sheila Dikshit: No, how can I say what is going on in their minds?
Karan Thapar: You mean it could happen?
Sheila Dikshit: No
Karan Thapar: You acknowledge there is a fear of this?
Sheila Dikshit: No, no, no, I don't. Please don't put words into my mouth. I'm confident, I said, we will make the Games a success. There are glitches, hitches, whiches (sic!) and all the rest of it, lots of people putting their fingers in the pie, but we'll manage.
Karan Thapar: All right. "We'll manage". Let's hope those are not famous last words.
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