Click to play videoSharad Pawar has too much on his plate: he is the Agriculture Minister, he is the president of the International Cricket Council (ICC) and he heads the Nationalist Congress Party. Pawar says he isn’t complaining but wants his “burden” to be reduced so that he can travel and “keep a rapport with the masses”. “It is too much workload and in last five years, I have managed. Not only managed but we have substantially improved,” Pawar told Karan Thapar on Devil's Advocate. Pawar also spoke about the controversy surrounding suspended IPL commissioner Lalit Modi.
Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to 'Devil's Advocate', in a special interview with Sharad Pawar, speaking both as a Cabinet Minister and as President of the ICC.
Mr Pawar, let's start with yourself. Earlier this month you asked the Prime Minister to reduce your workload. Almost the3 weeks have passed but that hasn't happened. So today, what sort of pressure are you under?
Sharad Pawar: It's not a question of pressure. You see, I had requested the Hon'ble Prime Minister: I got many portfolios. I am looking after agriculture (Ministry). Agriculture meaning not just agriculture. It is agriculture, animal husbandry and fisheries. In fact previously, during Vajpayee government's ministry, there were two, in fact, three (portfolios). In food, there is not only food but food and civil supplies and third is consumer affairs --
Karan Thapar: --so is the workload too much?
Sharad Pawar: It is too much workload and in last five years, I have managed. Not only managed but we have substantially improved. But--
Karan Thapar: Now you need help?
Sharad Pawar: I feel that because I -- you forgot to mention that -- I am also party (NCP) chief. Therefore, I also have certain responsibility towards my party also. So my party feels --
Karan Thapar: --Are you tired?
Sharad Pawar: No, it's not a question of tired. It's a question of --
Karan Thapar: Overworked?
Sharad Pawar: I want to travel more in India, in the interior part of the country. That will be helpful for me, for agriculture also and that will be helpful for me to keep a rapport with the masses.
Karan Thapar: I understand but, at the time you asked the Prime Minister to reduce your workload, many newspapers said that Sharad Pawar should step down from the Cabinet altogether. Let me quote the ‘Business Standard’. It said: ‘Why should he keep his Cabinet berth if he doesn't have time or energy for it. Mr Pawar should resign from the Cabinet.' What's your response?
Sharad Pawar: I don't know but this is an uncalled for advice. Nobody has asked for this advice. I am in government. I think I will complete 25 years in different capacities. And my track record is about my performance and control of my ministry is known. Those who don't know me well, they have every right to write. But beyond that, I don't give more --
Karan Thapar: --but you want to stay in the government.
Sharad Pawar: No, no, I said that I just want to reduce my job.
Karan Thapar: Let me put it like this. Are you hoping that the ministry you give up will be given to your daughter Supriya Sule?
Sharad Pawar: No, no. She is not interested to join government at this juncture. Secondly, I am not going to insist that ministry should be given to my party.
Karan Thapar: So it could go to anyone from any party?
Sharad Pawar: It is Prime Minister's prerogative.
Karan Thapar: So this is not an attempt to find a ministership for Supriya or promotion for Praful Patel?
Sharad Pawar: No, we know what is the practice. In UPA, it depends on your total number in the Parliament (parliamentary seats)-- how many portfolios eligible. My party got according to our numbers, so I have no right to ask for additional portfolios.
Karan Thapar: So you accept that the NCP (Nationalist Congress Party) has got a fair number of ministerships. You have no right to ask for more.
Sharad Pawar: That's why I am not asking that.
Karan Thapar: 'The Sunday Guardian' has commented that in fact the ministership you want to give up is the consumer affairs, food and public distribution because you have reservations about the Food Security Bill that the National Advisory Council is considering.
Sharad Pawar: In fact, we have not received also what is the proposal of the National Advisory Council. In fact, about the proposed food security bill, the President of India has described what will be the nature of the bill, in the Parliament. It is not a presidential decision; it is the Cabinet's decision. So the Cabinet has discussed this bill. I am a part of the Cabinet so it is collective responsibility. And secondly, we have a group of ministers headed by Mr Pranab Mukherjee and that group of ministers has discussed this bill. So, whatever decision will be taken, will be taken by the group of minister. And then, it might go to the Cabinet.
Karan Thapar: But what about the claim that Sharad Pawar has reservations about the bill?
Sharad Pawar: I have no reservations because, firstly, I am supposed to prepare the bill, not any outside body. And I have prepared a kachaa (raw) draft which we discuss within ourselves and we discuss in the group of ministers. We have come to some conclusion. We are waiting for some recommendations, some suggestions from that national advisory body. But, we have not received yet. So, we haven't got anything on paper. So why should I have any reservations?
Karan Thapar: Will the version given to you by the National Advisory Council be binding on you, or is it simply a suggestion and a recommendation?
Sharad Pawar: Definitely it is a recommendation-- and the number of experts are associated in that body. So their view-- we will give serious thought on that.
Karan Thapar: But it's not binding?
Sharad Pawar: It's not binding.
Karan Thapar: In other words you can reject what they recommend?
Sharad Pawar: Depends, because I don't know what is the recommendation.
Karan Thapar: But you have the prerogative and the right to reject if you want?
Sharad Pawar: Yeah. This Cabinet has every right to prepare. Ultimately, we have to see what our availability is. Suppose you say that I should give such and such quantity. But I have to see whether that quantity is available with me today.
Karan Thapar: Absolutely. At the end of the day, the government will decide, Sharad Pawar will decide who is to be given guarantee, how much is to be given as a part of that guarantee. Those are your decisions.
Sharad Pawar: Yeah. In fact, the government has already decided to a) give a guarantee, b) in our first announcement, we have said something about the quantum also. Not only we, I have seen the Congress party's manifesto in last election. They have also described the number, figure and we have followed that figure.
Karan Thapar: Quite right. Twenty-five kilos per family at 3 rupees a kilo. But the NAC wants that revised upwards to 35 kilos, and possibly at a different price. So, at the end, you will decide whether it is feasible to change the figure and if not, the government will go by you.
Sharad Pawar: See basically, we will decide. I have no objection with 35 also - which category and at what rate.
Karan Thapar: So this is your decision?
Sharad Pawar: It is the Cabinet decision. And secondly, about the raise, if ultimately Finance Ministry is ready to take substantial responsibility for subsidy, why should I oppose? But it will be collective decision of the Cabinet, not Finance Minister or Sharad Pawar.
Karan Thapar: When will this decision be taken? It's an issue that's becoming controversial. How much more time do you need before you make up your mind?
Sharad Pawar: I'll tell you frankly. We are waiting for this recommendation from this national council. After getting that recommendation, we will discuss within my ministry. Then I will take my view before the group of ministers. Then I will go to the Cabinet. Then after getting cleared from the Cabinet, I will prepare for everyone, from public, for comments. And after getting comments from public, I will give it 3-4 months. Then we will prepare a final draft and go to the Parliament. I am confident that the Parliament will send that proposed bill to the Standing Committee on Food. And after clearance from the Standing Committee, it will come before the Parliament for final view.
Karan Thapar: So this clearly sounds to me that the final view, taken by Parliament, may not happen for at least another year?
Sharad Pawar: At least 6 to 8 months.
Karan Thapar: At least 6 to 8 months?
Sharad Pawar: Yeah
Karan Thapar: Mr Pawar, since March, both the BCCI and the IPL have been surrounded by controversy and scandal. How damaged are both institutions.
Sharad Pawar: Firstly, I have to make one confusion absolutely clear. The office bearer of the ICC is not supposed to associate or make any comments on any member country. BCCI is a member country. I am a past president of the BCCI. But as per our constitution, ICC's constitution, I cannot take any responsibility in the BCCI and, in that connection, it is improper for me to react on any decision of any organisation. But, the ICC and the BCCI have some products which have been globally accepted; it had a great success. It is an unfortunate thing that there are serious controversies; there are serious allegations, and the board (BCCCI) has deputed a committee to go in detail and let's see what is the outcome of that detail.
Karan Thapar: But is the image of the BCCI or the IPL damaged?
Sharad Pawar: I don't think the IPL's overall position will be damaged, but definitely in the mind of cricket loving population within India and even outside India, they have started thinking that some wrong thing has happened. And that has definitely affected. Mr Manohar is trying level best to restore the image of the organisation.
Karan Thapar: That I understand. But India is, for many people, the very centre of the world cricket. This is where you have most of the fans; this is where most of the commercial support comes from. So, when there are major scandals about Indian cricket, I imagine the ICC must be rather concerned about it?
Sharad Pawar: No, I don't think we have come to that conclusion. They are allegations. There is difference between allegations and scandals so one has to see the allegations are correct. And BCCI is going in detail. They will definitely come to conclusion. And after that decision, we can say something about that.
Karan Thapar: Now, as you pointed out, the BCCI has appointed a committee, they are looking into the allegations against Lalit Modi, meanwhile Lalit Modi himself has been suspended. But what about the rest of the governing council? Why have they been retained and not replaced?
Sharad Pawar: It is the prerogative of the BCCI. I cannot say about that. It is an internal policy. They have to take decision on that, I cannot say anything about that.
Karan Thapar: That I fully understand. But, in interviews to me, Tiger Pataudi has openly that the governing council failed. In fact, we got so dazzled by the IPL that we forgot to ask questions. Why then are people who admit they have failed, retained?
Sharad Pawar: The board has to decide and these people have to decide. I don't want to comment on that.
Karan Thapar: What about something else. And this perhaps goes back to a time when you were the president of the BCCI yourself. The BCCI, it is said, is happily tolerating conflict of interest. For instance, N Srinivasan is the secretary of the BCCI but he also owns an IPL team. Then, Kris Srikant is the chairman of selectors but he is brand ambassador of Chennai Superkings. Why are these conflict of interests --
Sharad Pawar: --you see, this particular subject is discussed at length in the BCCI's general body. And there, ultimately, the organisation came to the conclusion that it is a club level tournament. And since it is a club level tournament, that's why the rules that are applicable to other major meets and rules that are applicable to club level tournaments are altogether different. And that's why, they passed a resolution and the BCCI has authorized office bearers that they can own the team, they can set up a team, that was collective, unanimously said.
Karan Thapar: I understand that the BCCI passed a resolution authorizing people like Mr Srinivasan to own a team. But, just because it is a resolution, it doesn't mean that the underlying conflict of interest has disappeared. It remains there. You just made it legitimate. Surely, that is the wrong thing to do?
Sharad Pawar: No, no, but when ultimately the body of general body, not only executive or anybody, unanimously takes some decision, that decision is a policy. And the policy was adopted by concerned body.
Karan Thapar: Now with hindsight, given that this has attracted a lot of concern and criticism, with hindsight, should that resolution be revisited and scrapped?
Sharad Pawar: That is a prerogative of the BCCI. I cannot comment on that because that is an internal decision.
Karan Thapar: Except that you were president at that time. So, do you think that this is a decision that should be revised?
Sharad Pawar: I cannot say now because I am wearing a different hat now.
Karan Thapar: Okay. One last question on this issue. As President of ICC, you are also concerned about the health of the various cricket bodies in various countries. Today people say that the BCCI itself, for three years, allowed the IPL scandal to develop under its nose and when questioned, they said they had no idea what was happening. Shouldn't the top management of the BCCI be made accountable?
Sharad Pawar: I said that the top management has gone in-dept. They have started. So let's see what the outcome is. Unless and until outcome is there, one should not just comment.
Karan Thapar: That I fully understand. But, at the end, will the ICC, to its satisfaction, check that the steps have been taken to clean up the mess?
Sharad Pawar: No. The ICC will not interfere in their domestic tournament.
Karan Thapar: So if in the end, the BCCI doesn't take sufficient action and the people aren't held accountable, the ICC won't interfare?
Sharad Pawar: The BCCI has already started the process of action.
Karan Thapar: Yes but we don't know whether it will be a satisfactory process. It might be a whitewash and what I am asking is that if it is a white wash, it is not satisfactory, will you then interfere?
Sharad Pawar: ICC has no authority to interfere in any country's any organisation, as per the constitution.
Karan Thapar: So you cannot interfere, full stop!
Sharad Pawar: That's it.
Karan Thapar: Even if the BCCI does not carry out a satisfactory clean-up?
Sharad Pawar: No I am not feeling that. What I know about the organisation, the BCCI themselves will take appropriate decision to improve their functioning, their performance and their image.
Karan Thapar: One last set of questions about yourself. As you know that in two months there have been speculations in the press that either you your members of your family own stakes in bids for IPL franchisees. Has this damaged your image and standing?
Sharad Pawar: No that is just a publicity campaign just to malign me. Beyond that, nothing.
Karan Thapar: Have they succeeded?
Sharad Pawar: Simple thing. If suppose I would have been interested, firstly, as per BCCI rule, there are no objections. As you yourself mentioned, one office bearer, he owns a team. It is not difficult for me also to own. And secondly, I think I have that sort of prestige in that organisation where, if I am interested, other would not have come forward.
Karan Thapar: But has this controversy damaged your reputation and image?
Sharad Pawar: Because people don't know what is the fact that is why it is happening. When major newspapers are giving headlines with photographs, people do feel: what is this?
Karan Thapar: A second issue that has come up is that people say that you are very close to Lalit Modi, some people even suggest that you are secretly supporting him. Are you?
Sharad PawarNo, you see, definitely, all of us were together. Myself, Shashank Manohar, Lalit Modi, all of us were elected unanimously. It was one group; we have worked together. Everyone has contributed something. But, now the present setup of feels that something has gone wrong and therefore, unless and until that is established and the picture comes before all of us, it is not proper for me to support it or oppose it.
Karan Thapar: So you are not supporting Lalit Modi?
Sharad Pawar: I am keeping away from this.
Karan ThaparDo you think he is being treated fairly or, is he being treated unfairly?
Sharad Pawar I can't say about that but I know he has contributed, and if suppose there is a mistake, then he has to face the music.
Karan ThaparIf there is a mistake, he has to face the music?
Sharad Pawar Anybody.
Karan Thapar: You won't, at that stage, step in to protect him?
Sharad Pawar: No question of protecting anybody. Not only Mr Modi but anybody. But, if anybody has contributed, one has to accept also his contribution.
Karan Thapar: You have to also accept his contribution? So you do believe that Lalit Modi has made a big contribution?
Sharad Pawar: The IPL, that product which has brought success to this country, which has established that India can organise such thing, and there he has taken lot of pain, there is no two opinion, but the style of functioning has become controversial and the present board do feel that we should go in depth. And I know Mr Manohar. Mr Manohar is an honest, very straightforward person, honest administrator, and if he feels, he will go in depth. He himself says that if something goes wrong there, we will take stern view, and if it is not, our information is not correct, then we will happily admit also that it was wrong from our side.
Karan Thapar: So Lalit Modi will be given a fair trial?
Sharad Pawar: I am confident that he has to be given a fair trial.
Karan Thapar: Will you try and ensure that it is fair, and that he is not simply sacrificed?
Sharad Pawar: I will not interfere either way from this because I cannot interfare now.
Karan Thapar: Sharad Pawar, a pleasure speaking to you.
Sharad Pawar: Thank you.
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