Click to play videoKaran Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil’s Advocate. How does Gurjar leader Colonel Kirori Singh Bainsla respond to the criticism that whilst he may have won the war against Rajasthan Chief Minister Vasundhara Raje Scindia, perhaps he lost the peace. That’s one of the questions that I shall put to Col. Bainsla himself.
After your agreement with Vasundhara Raje, you said, “we got what we wanted”. But your critics say you signed under pressure. And newspapers say, “He was given a promise that would fail to persuade even a child.” Did you win the war, but lose the peace?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Well I do not agree with this because what I wanted, I got it. And I will never compromise the interest of my community.
Karan Thapar: So you are 100 per cent satisfied with the agreement with Vasundhara Raje Scindia.
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Precisely so.
BLUR_B
Karan Thapar: Let’s explore that. On May 31, when the agitation was at its height, you said: “The state government must send a formal recommendation to the Centre. Gurjars should be included in the ST category. Only then it is possible to consider withdrawing this agitation.” Yet you got no such letter. But you withdrew the agitation.
Kirori Singh Bainsla: When the discussions prolonged and progressed, we discussed so many aspects of it. There were three options for us–one was a simple letter of recommendation to be sent to the Centre, the second option that almost came into the talks was that the Chief Minister will go the Prime Minister and discuss this matter and third was to make a base and send the recommendation which will bring real good fruits subsequently.
Karan Thapar: And you chose in a sense the third option.
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Yes. I asked all my colleagues, applied my mind and this was the best option for us.
Karan Thapar: All your colleagues supported this option?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Yes.
Karan Thapar: I’ll tell you the problem. What you have ended up with is a committee. But not a commitment. You have no control over what this committee will control, you have no way of ensuring it will support Schedule Tribe status for the Gurjars.
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Our case to be included into ST by recommended by Lokur Committee in 1965. Therefore it substantiates our case and I am quite hopeful that under the present conditions of the Gurjars, they shall be recommended.
Karan Thapar:You are absolutely right when you say that the Lokur Committee which met and sat in 1965 recommended the case. The problem is that since then, all the Presidents have gone against you. In 1981 Shiv Charan Mathur considered it and rejected it. The papers say that Ashok Gehlot considered it. And even in the last three years under Vasundhara Raje Scindia 23 of the 32 district collectors in Rajasthan have sent notices opposing ST status for the Gurjars. So all the Presidents are against you. Aren’t they?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: So far as the report of the collectors is considered, I out my foot down. It is not acceptable to us. Why it’s not is because – collector is one individual, he can be biased and collectors who are in the district which is not a Gurjar predominant area, will not hold good. Therefore I said we don’t accept collectors report. The other option was to set a committee, headed by a retired judge and two members and I am sure it will bear fruits.
BLUR_B
Karan Thapar: When this committee headed by a judge investigates the matter, won’t it be relying on the same collectors for information and data.
Kirori Singh Bainsla: No. As I told you earlier, it can be biased also. How many are there in the bureaucracy that are against us.
Karan Thapar: So this committee will find out the truth of the situation in Rajasthan without going through the collectors. It will, in other words, investigate the matter independently of collectors.
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Of course.
Karan Thapar: You have a commitment from Vasundhara Raje?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: I do.
Karan Thapar: A commitment?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Yes.
Karan Thapar: If it is such a good deal like you are telling me, how then do you explain the fact that the Meena community has been celebrating. Let me quote to you Kirori Lal Meena, the Food Minister of Vasudhara Raje Scindia’s own government. He says, “This is our victory.” He adds, “We told the government never write to the Centre recommending ST status to the Gurjars and the government hasn’t.” It seems the Vasundhara Raje Scindia has paid more attention to the Meenas than to you.
Kirori Singh Bainsla: I personally feel that the stand of the Meenas’ is undemocratic and unconstitutional. If Rajasthan government headed by Vasundhara Raje pays any attention or tilts towards the Meenas, consequences are going to be dire.
Karan Thapar: You mean that?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: I do.
Karan Thapar: You are in fact sending a warning to the Vasundhara Raje Scindia government. Aren’t you?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Of course I am.
Karan Thapar: You are saying to her that if in any way I suspect that you are influenced by the Meenas or tilted towards the Meenas, the consequences will be dire.
Kirori Singh Bainsla: I mean it.
Karan Thapar: What is dire consequences?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: The moment we will go ahead with our movement vigorously.
BLUR_B
Karan Thapar: In other words if she shows that she is influenced by the Meenas, you will start the movement and the agitation all over again?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Yes. Very much so.
Karan Thapar: And this time you will do it full vigour and won’t stop halfway.
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Yes.
Karan Thapar: That in a sense is the warning you are giving her.
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Of course.
Karan Thapar: Let us look at the steps she has taken after you reached an agreement with her. Look at the police action she has initiated: 264 cases against the Gurjars, including yourself, for charges like murder and attempt to murder and 209 Gurjars arrested. Doesn’t it look that, despite your confidence, she is actually trying to teach the Gurjars a lesson?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: As I look at it, it is a sort of face-saving device for her.
Karan Thapar:You mean that?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: I do.
Karan Thapar: She is being tough, to make an appearance of toughness to save her face with her party and with the rest of Rajasthan. That is what you are saying?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Yeah.
Karan Thapar: You really mean that?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Yeah.
Karan Thapar:Let me quote to you what your own colleagues have said. Roop Singh, one of your closest associates, has gone on record to say that this is the betrayal of the Vasundhara Raje government. Mandata Singh, another of your close associates, says Vasundhara Raje has broken a verbal promise to withdraw the cases. They don’t seem to agree with you.
Kirori Singh Bainsla: But they were very much in the committee and the meeting (with Vasundhara Raje).
BLUR_B
Karan Thapar: So are they playing politics?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Could be
Karan Thapar: Why they are playing politics with you? You are their leader
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Well, I have no comments for that.
Karan Thapar: Are you disappointed with their remarks?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Not at all.
Karan Thapar:The Time of India says that on June 9 you tried to meet Vasundhara Raje to complain about the cases. The paper says she refused to meet you claiming she was indisposed, but actually she was hale and hearty.
Kirori Singh Bainsla: I was told she is sick and I do not whether it was a pretense or reality, but I took it for granted as a gentleman. We met a minister and we discussed things and we reached some conclusions.
Karan Thapar: Let me ask you a question, do you trust Vasundhara Raje?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Well, I still trust her. And I will see to it that she does justice to us.
Karan Thapar: When you say you will see to it that she does justice how will you see to it?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: By carrying on the agitation—movement—with a vigorous speed and I will tell her that either you do justice with us or we will have a sort of movement which will shake the entire system. We want justice, for the last 60 years nobody has bothered to look at us.
Karan Thapar: So for you there is no question of backing down?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: There is no question of backing down.
Karan Thapar: In a sense this is a do-or-die struggle for reservations and justice.
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Apparently and evidently.
Karan Thapar: On June 24, a national Gurjar mahapanchayat will be meeting to consider the outcome of the agitation. Are you worried that your critics at the mahapanchayat may accuse you of accepting peace on Vasundhara Raje’s terms?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: I am not all worried, let me tell you from the very core of my heart. I will clarify the position; I will clarify everything to my people what it is and I will subsequently ask for their opinion. I will put forward my opinion and then we will decide further course of action.
BLUR_B
Karan Thapar: Are you confident that you have just not the loyalty but the support of the Gurjar community behind you.
Kirori Singh Bainsla: I have loyalty; without loyalty how could they come in strength of millions to me. Just go and see the people.
Karan Thapar: So even if one or two people make criticisms you are sure that the mahapanchayat will support you 100 percent.
Kirori Singh Bainsla: I am quite sure about that. There are a few people—there have been people in history—who are clamouring but my aim is very clear: I want to give this reservation to my community at any cost for me.
Karan Thapar: At any cost?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Yeah!
Karan Thapar: Let me then push you a little. In three months time the committee appointed by Vasundhara Raje will come back with its recommendation. If it fails to recommend Scheduled Tribe status just for the Gurjars what would you do?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: When in 1965, a committee without any movement had recommended us for this (reservation) how can they deny it to us?
Karan Thapar: Because, in between in 1981, it was refused in Shiv Charan Mathur’s time.
Kirori Singh Bainsla: There were no people to persuade the case; there were no people to further the case (then).
Karan Thapar: So this time the difference is the presence of Col. Bainsala?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Yes, very much so.
Karan Thapar: So if this committee comes back with a suggestion that is negative, you will re-launch the movement with vigour?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Yeah.
Karan Thapar: The last time the movement almost lead to a caste war between the Gurjars and the Meenas. It didn’t happen but they were incidents of violent conflict. This time if you re-launch the movement are you scared that it could lead to a caste war?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: I pray that god gives wisdom to the Meena leaders. I am asking you: was it constitutional? Was it ethically proper for the Meena leaders to behave like this? We had a cause for which we were agitating but what made Meenas to behave like this.
BLUR_B
Karan Thapar: Did you feel stabbed in the back by the Meenas?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Of course, particularly by the leaders.
Karan Thapar: And are you saying one thing more—that if you are forced by circumstances to restart the movement in three months at that point you would not be scared by the Meenas and what they do?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: I won’t care and I don’t even care today.
Karan Thapar: So if you have to restart the movement, and to get justice for the Gurjars it ends up as a caste war then it is going to happen.
Kirori Singh Bainsla: My strength is the justness of the cause.
Karan Thapar: And you would go to any length to get that justice?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: No fears.
Karan Thapar: Even if it involves people losing their lives in the process?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: People have been losing…but I want to say one thing. I am their leader and I will try and safeguard my people, maintain a peaceful movement and carry on with the movement.
Karan Thapar: But if achieving justice requires loss of life so be it?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Well, it is all in the game.
Karan Thapar: Col Bainsla, you spent your career in the army, an institution where there are no reservations and an institution that doesn’t believe in reservations. Is it not a paradox, or contradiction, that after retirement you are fighting for reservation?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: I want to ask you a question, to reply your question. Anybody in my place would have done the same thing having seen the pathetic, morbid and sordid conditions of my people. As on today, we don’t have a Collector, a SP, a CMO, or an engineer at district level from Gurjar community. What are we? Where do we stand?
Karan Thapar: In other words, Gurjars need reservations because without reservations there position is, as you say, morbid and pathetic.
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Exactly.
Karan Thapar: Standing outside Vasundhara Raje’s residence in Jaipur the day the agreement happened why did you tell the press that even if she doesn’t agree to our demands I will call of the movement?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Look, there are so many misinterpretations and misquotations but I would like to tell you, point blank from my heart, is that it was simply a slip of the tongue. Nothing else.
Karan Thapar: You mean that?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: I do.
BLUR_B
Karan Thapar: You mean you actually made a small mistake?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Very much so. I retreat back my steps.
Karan Thapar: You take back your words?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Yeah, I do.
Karan Thapar: Is it difficult for a man in your position today to accept that he made a mistake?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: To err is human.
Karan Thapar: You don’t think the Gurjar community will say our Colonel made a mistake?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Even if they say I will accept before them.
Karan Thapar: So you have the courage to accept your own mistake?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: I have the moral courage to accept my mistakes.
Karan Thapar: Are you ruled by your heart or are you ruled by your head?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Well, each individual at times is ruled by both.
Karan Thapar: But when you were sitting in Vasundhara Raje’s office, and agreed to the agreement did you do it mentally or did you do it from your heart?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: There it was mind, it was conscience also. See, when you reach on some conclusions it is the mind which works, it is the mind which checks and tells you.
Karan Thapar: And your mind is convinced that you have got a good agreement?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Bilkul (Yes).
Karan Thapar: Today you are perhaps the best known Gurjar leader in the country. Would you consider entering politics?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: I want to tell you one thing. I personally feel, it is my way of life and I don’t brag about it, there must be a line in life so far as ambition is concerned. Vaulting ambitions invariably turn out to be disastrous. I want a peaceful life; I want to contribute to my society and I think this is the biggest achievement of my life—if I am able to give something good to my society.
BLUR_B
Karan Thapar: Suppose your own community come to you and say, ‘Col Bainsla, we need as you MP’, what would you do?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Well, it is a very difficult question you are asking me but even then I can say, ‘I can serve from a distance. Give me a chance to retire, to look after myself and to pursue my hobbies.’
Karan Thapar: You will resist even pressure from Gurjars to enter politics?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: I feel so at the moment.
Karan Thapar: At the moment? Is there room for change?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: No, there is no room for change. Absolutely no room for change, even today, tomorrow or day after tomorrow. I want to have a peaceful life and contribute something good for my society. This is the only ambition in my life.
Karan Thapar: How would you like the Gurjar community to remember you?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: Let me say candidly, frankly, that it is my earnest desire to see my community as second to none in India and contribute something worthwhile for advancement of the country and that they live with pride and gusto.
Karan Thapar: That is your real ambition?
Kirori Singh Bainsla: This is my ambition, and I expect you to extend a helping hand in my mission. And this community of mine shall remain ever grateful to you, Karan sir.
(For updates you can share with your friends, follow IBNLive on Facebook, Twitter and Google+)
 |
|
 |
displayed with permission. Use of the CNN name and/or logo on or as part of CNN-IBN does not derogate from the intellectual property rights of Cable News Network in respect of them.