I'll will not interfere with IITs: Sibal

The IIT faculties and the Human Resources Ministry seem to be at loggerheads with each other. Just how serious is the standoff, or has the situation been misunderstood? That was the key issue that Karan Thapar explored on Devil's Advocate in an interview with the Union Minister for Human Resources Development, Kapil Sibal.

Karan Thapar: Mr Sibal, there is a widespread belief because of your interviews, that you are invariably opposed to the demands made by the IIT faculty. Is that really the case? Or are you in fact, much more flexible than people have understood to be the case?

Kapil Sibal: I have always been flexible and the system itself has been flexible. I think they have entirely misunderstood the position of the ministry.

Karan Thapar: So in other words, the impression that you are entirely opposed to the IIT demands is actually based on a misunderstanding?

Kapil Sibal:A misunderstanding of the system, of how it works and how the IIT system itself works; and our own position on it.

Karan Thapar: Is it also possible that it is a misunderstanding of things that you said?

Kapil Sibal: Oh, absolutely.

Karan Thapar: Let's then, to clarify the situation, go through the principal demands of the IIT faculty one by one so that you can explain what is your actual response to it.

To begin with, the IITs are a little perplexed, or perhaps I should put it a little strongly, concerned with your recent stipulation that at least 10 per cent of the entries into faculty should be by way of contracts. Let me begin by asking you, what's the purpose of this?

Kapil Sibal: The purpose is that normally, or rather that is a norm that when it is a person with a PhD without industrial, teaching or research experience (joins the IIT as faculty), he/she should be on a contract. But on a regular position, not ad-hoc.

On contract, if at the end of three years, the IIT people and the board feel that he should be absorbed, then he should be absorbed. However, this is the norm. If however in the course of these three years, the IIT Board or the Director recommends to the board that look, this man is outstanding; let's even waive the three year period, we would not interfere in that.

Karan Thapar: You said something really important. You are saying that although the 10 per cent requirement to the new entrants to the faculty that are to be taken on contract is the norm; and that the norm is designed to make sure that you get the best of people and not left out strata of people you do not want. Nonetheless, you have said to me that exceptional people at the discretion of IIT directors can be taken, on tenure from the outside.

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely, yes. Not only exceptional people, but people who have been taken on three-year-contract and who expect to be absorbed after three years; even their term can be reduced when the IIT Board says that look, here's a man who is exceptional, so let us waive the three-years (norm).

Karan Thapar: So, two things are possible. Firstly, people can be taken on tenure if they are very exception right from the outset. Second is that even those who are taken on a contract for three years, their term can be reduced and they can be put on tenure say after one year.

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely. Let me tell you another thing. In the previous IIT system, every person absorbed in a regular position had to be on probation for one year before he could be absorbed.

Karan Thapar: So, now you are saying something else as well. You are actually saying to me that the residual powers of the Clause 61 H of IIT which apply to all IIT allowing the directors under certain exceptions to set special terms and conditions for the intake of faculty, remain intact.

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely. Let me tell you another thing. What I am really concerned about is uniformity. The IIT system must be uniform in its application. All of them should get together and say that in these circumstances, we can absorb a fellow even before.

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Karan Thapar: But let me underline the one very important thing that you said, which I believe will be very reassuring to the faculties that the 10 per cent guideline of intake of faculty on contractual basis is in fact a norm and that you have not done away with it nor are you undermining the power or capacity of the directors to take in exceptional individuals on tenure from the outside.

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely. If you find a Stephen Hawking, take him. If you find a C N R Rao, take him. I have no problem.

Karan Thapar: All right. A second area of concern for the IIT faculty is the stipulation that no one can become a professor in the IIT unless he or she has done at least four years as an assistant-professor either within the IIT structure or in an equivalent institution at an equivalent level.

Now, let me put this to you. Are there situations where you are prepared to accept the IIT directors to use their discretion for exceptional candidates to waive the stipulation?

Kapil Sibal: On this, Karan, it was their own guideline. Their own guideline says ten years of teaching experience, four years or whatever of teaching experience as an associate professor.

They should have their own guidelines. We do not want to interfere in those systems. This is for the purposes of getting into those associate professor and professor grade.

Karan Thapar: Absolutely. They have their own guidelines. You do not want to interfere and want to abide by them but does the director of the IIT have the discretion to waive or do you have.

Kapil Sibal: See, waiver should not be a norm.

Karan Thapar: What about exceptional cases?

Kapil Sibal: They have to then set standards as to what the exceptional cases are so that the standard is not abused. If they come to the government saying that these are the circumstances in which the IIT Board should have the power to waive you know, I would have no problems with that.

Karan Thapar: So once again, let us clarify so that we can see what you are saying. Provided they set standards, provided it is not arbitrary, they then do have the capacity and the power to waive or reduce the four-year requirement.

Kapil Sibal: The government will never stand in the way of the IIT system to absorb exceptional cases. These rules are meant for people who are of a certain standard, not for exceptional categories.

Karan Thapar: But because this is so important, I am repeating it so that I can have your clarification on this. You therefore, do accept that although the norm is that before anyone becomes a professor, he or she must have spent four years as an associate professor in the IIT system.

For exceptional candidates, the directors of IIT have the power to whither, waive or reduce that four-year requirement.

Kapil Sibal: The (IIT) directors always had the power and we never interfered with that power. Many a times, even in the previous regulations, they would deviate from the norm and ask the IIT if the government has ever interfered.

Karan Thapar: And that power continues?

Kapil Sibal: That power was always there. Exceptional power is always there.

Karan Thapar: The IIT faculties often take the example, in particular of Professor C N R Rao who in the period of 1963-1964, within a period of just 15 months, went on to become from an associate professor at IIT Kanpur to a full professor. That kind of a speedy promotion for an exceptional candidate is still possible?

Kapil Sibal: Of course it is possible. Let me tell you this. After C N R Rao's case in 1963 and fact is that we are in 2009, and there has not been a single exceptional case since then. So if you take the example of CNR Rao, that goes way back to 1963. If there is a CNR Rao or a Stephen Hawking, we will do it for him.

Karan Thapar: Your rules and stipulations do not stand in the way of such exceptional persons?

Kapil Sibal: No, they will not.

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Karan Thapar: Okay, let's come to the third and for some the biggest concern that the IIT faculties have; the 40 per cent cap that you put on professors who can avail of the senior-most salary grade. First of all, is this 40 per cent rigid or is it flexible?

Kapil Sibal: First of all, this issue is hypothetical, Karan. Because when I say a 40 per cent cap, it is for an incentive. In other words, if you are to get an extra grade pay if you are excellent or you perform excellently in the field of science and engineering.

So, this 40 per cent will start when the rule is implemented. So at the end of the first year, 40 per cent professors will not be given.

Karan Thapar: So it will only happen three, or four or five years down the line.

Kapil Sibal: Incrementally, even more, because 50 per cent of the faculties, by and large in the IIT are professors. So this will happen incrementally over a period of five, seven or even ten years.

Karan Thapar: So, the cap won't be hit for the next five or ten years, you are saying? In other words, if there is a problem, it is five or ten years down the line, not now, is that what you are saying? That is what you are saying?

Kapil Sibal: Exactly.

Karan Thapar: The second thing is it is hypothetical but it is very important for the IIT faculty, they are saying. They say suppose in year A, something like 36 or 37 per cent are already in the top salary grade and then in the next year or so, there are three or four persons who have done some good work and need to be rewarded.

But that addition would takes the percentage from 38 to 42. Now, in those circumstances, would 40 per cent be a bar or would you be flexible?

Kapil Sibal: See, remember this. In a government, norms are guidelines that should be adhered to, right? And we are talking about a 40 per cent cap, am overall cap. You may in one year have 25 per cent. In another you may have 42 per cent. And if you are talking of a hypothetical question that in ten years down the road you may have 42 per cent, we will visit it, we will revisit the whole thing.

What's the problem? Why are you going on a possible hunger protest for an issue that may happen ten years from now?

Karan Thapar: So what you have underlined is two very important thing. The 40 per-cent cap. If it bites, it may bite only for five years or may be 10 years down the line, not now. Secondly, in a situation where it seems to bite, the government can revisit it?

Kapil Sibal: Exactly.

Karan Thapar: In other words, it is not a bar to the people crossing it but simply a guideline and you will revisit it if the problem happens when it happens.

Kapil Sibal: Karan, let me say one more thing. Government does not get involved in any of this. This is a norm that we have set. The (IIT) administration is run by the board of governors. I am even going to this extent--the Board of governors if it finds, you do not have to refer anything to the government.

We rely on their integrity. If they are met with any of the three situations that you mentioned, that something should be done which will promote excellence, the IIT system can rest assured, Kapil Sibal will not interfere.

Karan Thapar: In other words, the final power and authority to determine the implementation of rules and regulations is with the Board of governors and therefore within the IIT system?

Kapil Sibal: Yes, but they must have uniform standard of governance and must not be arbitrary. The normative basis to govern this must be set out within the IIT set up uniformly.

Karan Thapar: That I understand, it must not be idiosyncratic and eccentric. It must not be arbitrary, it must be as per laid down guidelines.

Kapil Sibal: It should not be like "You are my chela (follower), I will give you this."

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Karan Thapar: But there is something that emerges in particular from your last answer. You give me the impression that you not only understand the need for but you appreciate and are ready to protect something that the IITs are very proud of; what they call the flexibility of their cadre. You are happy to protect that.

Kapil Sibal: Not only that. I will walk a mile with them, if they walk two steps with me. I want to give them more autonomy, more flexibility. But they need to set standards for themselves. The IIT system, the IIT faculty has not delivered as per our expectations in the last 30-40 years.

Karan Thapar: That is the second issue. But I will come to that in a moment's time. But first, let me underline that you understand the need for and you are reiterating that you are ready to protect something that the IITs have always enjoyed--the flexibility of their cadres.

Kapil Sibal: Yes, not only of the IITs but of all education institutions.

Karan Thapar: Maybe, but the IIT says that their flexibility is inherent in their system, which has not applied to other universities. You are prepared for that?

Kapil Sibal: We have never interfered in that. These guidelines do not interfere in that. That flexibility remains.

Karan Thapar: Now, the other issue that we touched upon a few moments ago: that the IITs have not been delivering in the last 10 or 15 years or maybe more in a way that you may like them to.

The IIT faculties say this themselves that they are not able to attract the sort of talent to their faculty that they would like to and they believe they should. Are you willing to sit down with them and work out methods, procedures, incentives and imaginative proposals that would overcome this problem?

Kapil Sibal: I am going to call a council meeting. The item on the agenda would be how to increase your autonomy and your excellence. Remember, we may praise the IIT system, but it has not produced any Nobel laureates. The IIT faculty in terms of publications has not met the global standards.

Karan Thapar: Therefore, what you want to do is call a meeting of all IITs with yourself as the chairman of the IIT council presiding, so that together as a family if I may say you can tackle the problem of why is the IIT now delivering? How quickly or urgently do you want to do that?

Kapil Sibal: Probably, next month?

Karan Thapar: So, this is a priority?

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely, I have already given orders that this council meeting should be called even before this interview.

Karan Thapar: Clearly, you have given a lot of assurance to the IIT faculties on the three four top demands that they have. If they hear you, which I am sure they will, they will realise that there is a lot of flexibility and that far from being opposed to them, you actually willing to make understand and make allowance for the concerns.

Now how do we go forward? Now, are you willing to after this interview, pick up the phone and say to someone like Professor Thenmozi and say, come and meet me, I can assure you that I am prepared to solve your problems?

Kapil Sibal: Karan, there is no need for me to do this. The IIT board of directors, governors should meet the faculty. All of this has been explained to the directors. That is why you will find not a single director making a statement or joining the IIT faculty.

Karan Thapar: In other words, the onus is on the directors to explain to the faculty.

Kapil Sibal: What I have said today and have been saying is in the public domain and what I have said to the directors was in close door meetings. It was consistent with what I am saying now.

Karan Thapar: Now it is upon the directors to communicate to the faculty?

Kapil Sibal: Yes, let them do that.

Karan Thapar: Now, let me say one thing. Since you have been so effective in communicating in the public domain through this interview, can you not, pick up the phone and talk to two or three of the top faculties and talk?

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Kapil Sibal: You know, what happens in these things many things will arise which are much beyond what you are saying.

Karan Thapar: You do not want to complicate things?

Kapil Sibal: I do not want to complicate issues. If it is the three or four things, I have my position absolutely clear on that.

Karan Thapar: You have gone to a terrific extent to reassure the IIT faculty and to meet their demand. Let me put to you two simple things that perhaps led to you being misunderstood, perhaps unintentionally, but they did end up giving some offence to the faculty.

You said that the faculty were primarily motivated by a demand for higher salaries. They have always felt that they what they are trying to protect was the excellence of the institution.

Kapil Sibal: I maintain that, I am sorry. I maintain where I stand.

Karan Thapar: Won't you want to reconsider that?

Kapil Sibal: No, I won't. I think that was the motivation because I have met them before. So let us not get into that. It is not the first time that this has happened. See if they were to come to me and say, exceptional powers should be with the directors and with the Board, there would have been no situation.

They said no question of norms, no question of contracts. They announced this hunger strike and now it is a hunger protest, much before any of this could be discussed.

Karan Thapar: So, when it comes to this issue, where you have said that they are motivated more by money than by...

Kapil Sibal: I do not want to begin anything. Since you asked the question, I put it. But I do not really want to enter into that arena.

I personally think that this is not an issue of autonomy, because if you ask any IIT director he will tell you that here there is more autonomy given to the directors than anywhere else in the world.

Karan Thapar: Let me raise another issue that in a sense grated with the IIT faculties and led to the miscommunication between you and them.

You said that the hunger protest was undignified. Do you think now that you have actually gone to such a terrific extent to reassure their demands; you may want to reconsider that phrase?

Kapil Sibal: Let us not go back into all that. I do not think and I still stand by that, that any professor within the IIT system, especially when they are prospective Nobel laureates, should resort to these tactics.

Dialogue is the way forward, either directly or through the directors. And I am open to dialogue; I have always been open to dialogue.

Karan Thapar: The feeling I get in this part of the interview is very different from what I got in the initial part. In the first part you were bending over backwards to be understanding and to find ways of meeting their demands, of being co-operative.

Now, coming to it, do you think there was any misunderstanding or miscommunication because of certain things you said?

Kapil Sibal: There was no communication. Where is the question of a communication gap? They announced the hunger strike and went on a hunger protest. And I have not bent over backwards. This is exactly what my position was even earlier, namely--the norm is that the exception always lies with the Board of governors.

Karan Thapar: I began this interview by asking you if you were misunderstood. Do you think there was a sense in which, the manner in which the IIT faculty raised these issues, boxed you into that?

Kapil Sibal: No, no. Let us not get into that. The IIT system is very precious to us. These people are very precious to us.

Karan Thapar: And that is what you want to underline?

Kapil Sibal: That is what I want to underline.

Karan Thapar: Are the faculty precious too?

Kapil Sibal: Very precious, the faculty, the students.

Karan Thapar: Is that including Professor Thenmozi, who heads the faculty?

Kapil Sibal: Including (Professor Thenmozi). They are all very precious. But they should all really be talking about the way forward for India and scientific excellence in India instead of resorting to whatever has been resorted to.

Karan Thapar: If I can therefore interpret what you are saying, is it this? I disagree with the manner in which they went about pursuing their demands. They gave an impression that actually they were motivated by money rather than excellence but I would like to draw a line over it and put it in the past and get over it and I would like to say to them, even those who are going on hunger strike or hunger protest are precious to me.

Kapil Sibal: Very precious, very precious. The system is very precious. We need India to move forward.

Karan Thapar: In which case, can I also add that through this interview you are reaching out to them and saying: let the past be over.

Kapil Sibal: There is no rancour of the past either in my mind. These people are part of this system which we will guard.

Karan Thapar: Kapil Sibal, a pleasure talking to you.

Kapil Sibal: Thank you.