I'm embarrassed for my politics: Amar Singh

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Karan Thapar in conversation with Amar Singh on why he left the Samajwadi Party and whether he hides the secrets of its leaders.

Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil’s Advocate. We all know that Amar Singh has had an illustrious political past but does he have a credible political future? That’s one of the key issues I shall put today to Amar Singh himself.

Mr Amar Singh, let’s start with that question: Do you have a credible political future or is the Samajwadi Party and your critics correct when they say that you are history and it’s all over?

Amar Singh: I am very happy to be history because history is very important, and I have become an important and integral part of the history. It is not the doing of the Samajwadi Party.

I have created this history. I desperately wanted this history to be true and I am not interested in the present and future of the Samajwadi Party any longer that is why I resigned from all my posts.

Karan Thapar: You say you created history; no one would doubt that but is that history over? Do you have a future today as a politician or not?

Amar Singh: I don't care whether I have got a future or not. I would like to do something, which I want to do desperately.

Karan Thapar: When you say you don't care, are you saying you don't want one?

Amar Singh: Absolutely.

Karan Thapar: You don't want to be a politician hereafter?

Amar Singh: I don't want to be a politician hereafter. The kind of politics I have indulged in; the kind of politics I have done I am embarrassed to be a part of that kind of politics.

Karan Thapar: Are you saying you were embarrassed by the sort of politician you were?

Amar Singh: Not by the sort of politician I were but the sort of politics I have indulged in and I have become a part of that political process and system.

Karan Thapar: So you regret? In fact, you are going further, you are saying that you are embarrassed by the sort of politics you had to do?

Amar Singh: Of course, because barring the (Indo-US) nuclear deal I don't see any major achievement in my political career.

Karan Thapar: Do you apoligise for the sort of politics you had to do?

Amar Singh: Well, it is too strong a word because inside the system I tried very hard to do my duty.

Karan Thapar: But you got trapped by the system nonetheless?

Amar Singh: I don't mind accepting this truth.

Karan Thapar: And you not just regret it; you criticise that system?

Amar Singh: Absolutely, I criticise, I condemn that system.

Karan Thapar: So, Indian politics is something that you condemn?

Amar Singh: No Indian politics, (but) usual Indian politics where power play is more important, winnability of a particular seat is more important than moral issues involved or should remain involved in the political system.

Karan Thapar: This is very interesting. Anyone asked about Amar Singh would say that he is a master power player. They called you a manipulator.

They called you a fixer and with praise cause they say that's your strength. Today, you are saying that you regret you had to be a power player? You regret you had to be a manipulator and fixer?

Amar Singh: Well, fixer is a terminology that was given to me by scribes and journalists. That is not a correct thing. Manipulation is again something--this is a perception. I am neither a manipulator nor a fixer.

Karan Thapar: But the play of power that you are so famous for, you regret that?

Amar Singh: Where is the play of power? I have never been a minister. I have never been a part of the governmental system.

Karan Thapar: Then, hang on a minute! What is it that you regret?

Amar Singh: I will tell you what I regret. I regret writing a letter of apology to Afzal Ansari, brother of Mukhtar Ansari, on the behest of my top party leadership.

Karan Thapar: You said that already. Why did you write it if you regret it?

Amar Singh: Because, I have also said that I became self-indulgent. To me to be a part of that process at that moment was more important and I thought these compromises are too little to make for being in the position I would have liked to be.

Karan Thapar: So you were hungry to stay in power. You were hungry to be important and you therefore sacrificed your principles.

Amar Singh: Well that is--even if you use those strong words against me I will not mind Karan because--but--it is--to err is human, to accept that error is divine.

Karan Thapar: Except, why are you accepting today when you have been thrown out of the party. Why could you not have accepted this earlier?

Amar Singh: Who told you that I did not accept. What prompted me to resign from on the post? Not Mulayam Singh. He kept saying that the kind of relationship that I share with him he would never resign. So, I compelled him to accept my resignation. I compelled him to expel me. This is precisely what I wanted and I got.

Karan Thapar: What you are saying is extremely interesting. Its novel, newsworthy but many people listening to you are going to say is Amar Singh simply saying this because today suddenly he knows his political future is over and so he is making the best of honesty. Otherwise, he would have hidden this.

It’s because he knows that he has failed and he isn't going to go any further that he has decided to do a U-turn.

Amar Singh: Well, I deserve it if people think like that. But, I have to live with my conscience, my family and people close to me. Perception is not all the time truth. But, if this is the perception, then be it. But, this is not at all truth. I am saying it inside party from very long and people who know Uttar Pradesh politics they know that criminal and criminal activities inside Uttar Pradesh and inside the party, I am squarely responsible for curbing that.

Karan Thapar: Let's not quarrel about what you said inside the party or not. I accept your word for it, others may doubt it. Let me put to you something else. As a politician, until virtually two days ago, you use to thrive on publicity on power on Bollywood friends. That's all over now, they have left you, they have gone.

Amar Singh: Certain people they are not friends, they are family. For instance, the Bachchans. It doesn't really matter to me whether Paa is a hit or flop and it doesn't matter to them whether I am crowded by 40-50 MPs and that my path is political only.

Karan Thapar: It is interesting that you should cite Bachchans as an example. Jaya Bachchan has refused to side with you. You have been thrown out by the Samajwadi Party. Instead she is clinging to her Rajya Sabha seat. You have called her a family member. She is not treating you like a family member.

Amar Singh: Don't provoke me, Karan. I have also not left Rajya Sabha. She said, if supporting Amar Singh is a crime, then let the party expel me. I will leave Rajya Sabha provided Mulayam Singh tells me to do so and my tenure--very little of my tenure is left.

Karan Thapar: Yes, but I am going to quote you what she says. She says, " I have spoken with my family--" I don't know whether that family includes you or not "--and I would like to continue in the Rajya Sabha." That doesn't look as if she is siding with you it looks as if in fact, she is quietly, subtly turning her back on you?

Amar Singh: I don't agree with that because I have also not resigned my Rajya Sabha seat, so I should not expect her to resign her Rajya Sabha seat. And she has--in any case--in June or July, her tenure is ending. But, she has openly said that treatment given to me is wrong and Mulayam Singhji has acted under pressure and I have not cared about my health for serving the party. And, this is not Mulayam Singh who was supposed to have taken this decision.

Karan Thapar: But, don't you see the contradiction? Treatment given to Amar Singh is wrong, you say she said that but she is not siding with you. She is siding with Mulayam Singh. She is continuing as a member of the party.

She is continuing as a Rajya Sabha member of the Samajwadi Party and she says she has consulted her family. And I am not sure whether that family involves you?

Amar Singh: Well to that extent, each one has got their own wisdom but I am satisfied so far as I am concerned as long as she has justified my stand publicly. I don't have any complaint whatsoever.

Karan Thapar: You began very interestingly: each one has got their own wisdom. There is a hint there that you are prepared to accept what she has done but you are a bit disappointed. It hurt you a little isn't it?

Amar Singh: No, I am not at all disappointed because--

Karan Thapar: --Hurt?

Amar Singh: There is no hurt. There is no disappointment because her demeanor is like that.

Karan Thapar: Her demeanour?

Amar Singh: Her demeanour. She does not want anything that is not proper. And to her leaving Rajya Sabha midway is not proper. To her--she will resign from the party; she will cease to be a member of the Rajya Sabha. And moreover, she has consulted me.

Karan Thapar: She has consulted you?

Amar Singh: Yeah.

Karan Thapar: Then, when she's spoken with the family you are a part of that family?

Amar Singh: Of course.

Karan Thapar: But you also said something else. You said she prefers to stay in the Rajya Sabha for six months more even at the risk of this being seen and interpreted as distancing herself from Amar Singh rather than come out publicly and support Amar Singh. She had a choice and she has chosen one.

Amar Singh: Let me tell you- what matters is what I feel about her and what she feels about me. It really does not matter what people perceive.

Karan Thapar: So this relationship is intact?

Amar Singh: Absolutely.

Karan Thapar: As cas it use to be?

Amar Singh: As intense as it use to be.

Karan Thapar: There is no effect that has come as a result of her failing to resign?

Amar Singh: Not at all because she has also said, not that I am joining congress, I don't have any problem if Amar Singh joins Congress. Like she is an independent person to take her own independent decisions, at time, nonetheless with my approval and my consultation, I am also a free independent person to take decision on my own.

Karan Thapar: Lets take a break at that point. What decision that you take? Now that you have become a free independent person is the issue that I really want to explore with you.

On that depends the question: does Amar Singh have a credible future or not? The first problem you seem to have is that you don't have powerful political allies. Is there any political party today that is willing to work with Amar Singh?

Amar Singh: Well, this is not correct that I don't have. I have got powerful friends not powerful political allies because there is a saying that " ek mayan mein do talwaren nahin rehti"

Karan Thapar: You mean to say that within each party you have powerful friends even if the party isn't officially with you?

Amar Singh: Of course. That has been my strength. But, that does not mean that -- Arun Jaitley is my friend -- for that matter Praful Patel or Sharad Pawarji are my friends. That does not mean that I am intending to go and work with BJP--

Karan Thapar: --Absolutely. That's the issue I want to explore. You have gone on record to say that you are keeping option the open of working with Congress party. The problem is that Satyavrat Chaturvedi (Congress spokesperson) has said: "Congress is not a waste paper basket."

Amar Singh: I don't want to respond to [that]. First of all, I have not gone on record about any political party including Congress.

Karan Thapar: To CNN-IBN, talking to Rajdeep Sardesai you said you have kept open the possibility of working with the Congress.

Amar Singh: I have not said these words. Words may have been put in my mouth. I have not said that. I have said that I cannot work with BSP; I cannot work with BJP. So, that means that the Congress option is open. It's a journalistic cobweb you know.

Karan Thapar: Let me put it like this. What is the state of your relationship with Sonia Gandhi?

Amar Singh: That's a good question. It’s a very very formal—good, formal acquaintance. To say that I am very close to her is absolutely wrong and to say that we have not interacted or I have not known her as person is also wrong.

Karan Thapar: You wanted to meet her before you went to Singapore for your treatment but she didn't meet you.

Amar Singh: She didn't meet me and that's correct. I have said it on record.

Karan Thapar: Would she be willing to meet you today if you asked for a meeting?

Amar Singh: Well, I don't know. I have not tried but I had been interacting with her on phone after my return from Singapore and she was very nice and pleasant.

Karan Thapar: Do you feel that if you are to knock on Congress' door, she will open it for you?

Amar Singh: Well, that is a very hypothetical question. I don't have any intention to do that. And I will have to tread my future very carefully and cautiously and right now my priority is my own health, my family, my DVDs, my books and so many things that I have not been able to do.

Karan Thapar: I am going to conclude from what you just said both now and in part one that, number one: you are not committed to continuing as a politician, you made that quite clear in part one and Number two: You haven't thought seriously about joining Congress. Am I right on both?

Amar Singh: I have--don't pin point Congress. I am uncertain about my political future.

Karan Thapar: Is it therefore possible that six month or a year from now, Amar Singh may not be a politician. You may have found another career in another profession altogether.

Amar Singh: This maybe possible but at the same time--

Karan Thapar: --possible or likely also?

Amar Singh: Possible--it will be likely also, I am not saying that because I am not a single person with it. I have got a lot of supporters surrounding and hounding me. I don't know whether I will be able to ensure that I don't succumb to their pressure. That is the only problem left in my life.

Karan Thapar: You are talking about pressure from people around you to continue in politics or pressure to discontinue?

Amar Singh: Continue in politics.

Karan Thapar: What's your natural inclination? What does your heart say to you? You want to continue or not?

Amar Singh: My heart says that enough is enough. Now I should do constructive things in life.

Karan Thapar: Which not necessarily in politics?

Amar Singh: Like my party has always opposed computer and English. I am trying to adopt 20 rural villages where I will open computer centres along with English teacher.--

Karan Thapar: --are these thing that you can do outside politics or you have to be in politics to do them?

Amar Singh: No, I can do it through non-governmental organisation called Nistha which I have got.

Karan Thapar: Do you have to continue to be in the Rajya Sabha to do that?

Amar Singh: Not necessarily.

Karan Thapar: /i>So, genuinely, not being a politician is something that you are seriously thinking about?

Amar Singh: Maybe its not my priority but it is one of very strong option on my card.

Karan Thapar: I want to put something to you. To what extent is this motivated by the fact that the party that expelled you is still threatening? This is exactly what the new General Secretary Mohan Singh has said to ask Parliament to reopen the bribery case.

Are you worried if that sort of threat comes to be it's better and safer for you to be outside politics rather than inside?

Amar Singh: I am not the one person who is going to be cowed down. If such provocation will come, that is the--only -- the provocation threat is the one thing that I have never succumbed to. Then, I will be very fiercely in the politics. I will give a befitting reply to my erstwhile party, or for that matter to anyone who comes across.

And this bribery case that they are referring, they should see the role of Reoti Raman Singh. There is video and audio--photographs available with the committee. And first of all, they are digging the grave of Ram Gopal Yadav, Mulayam's brother. He was also a part of the parliamentary committe, which had exonerated me. So, if Ram Gopal Yadav knew that I am not innocent and even then he has supported me, he has done breach of parliamentary proceedings.

Karan Thapar: So you are actually saying to me that there is video and audio footage of Reoti Raman Singh, a Samajwadi Party MP handling money in the bribery case?

Amar Singh: No, not handling money, handling the MPs who allegedly handled money and placed it at the floor of the Parliament but I am not accusing Reoti Raman Singh. I want to make it clear. I respect the verdict of the parliamentary committee, which has exonerated Reoti Raman Singh as well, honourably.

Karan Thapar: You may not be accusing Reoti Raman Singh although you are bringing up his name and casting aspersions around it. But leave that aside. Mohan Singh has told PTI that Amar Singh—you--were involved in the cash for vote scam.

Are you scared that the Samajwadi Party knows too much about you for your own good?

Amar Singh: I am not scared. Mohan Singh, before saying such things, should have taken care of the fact that that he is likely to create problem for Ram Gopal Yadav, who happens to be a member of that committee. Let Ram Gopal Yadav say that and face the proceedings of breach of privilege so far as parliament is concerned.

Karan Thapar: Let me put something else to you. Speaking to ‘The Indian Express’ you said that you had in your possession CDs which, if made public could be derogatory or defamatory of Mulayam Singh and his family.

Amar Singh: They have wrongly reported--

Karan Thapar: -- Let me quote to you what they have said. They say: "even I have got something of that kind and they write in brackets CDs which is derogatory or defamatory to the family.

Amar Singh: No, I have not said that.

Karan Thapar: You didn't say that?

Amar Singh: No, I said I have got one CD only. That is Vishwanath Chaturvedi's CD which I got in context with Mulayam Singh's disproportionate assets case and that CD is not derogatory. That CD, in fact helps Mulayam Singh in proving his own innocence.

Karan Thapar: But, even if you didn't say this to The Indian Express, in an open letter to Mulayam Singh Yadav on your blog dated the 12th of January, you say that you know his secrets. You add that they will remain hidden in your heart. But, everyone knows that, in fact that is your secret weapon of self-defence.

Isn't that the real intension of the letter that you are telling him: Be careful with me because I know things about you and if you force me, I will reveal them. Isn't that the real message?

Amar Singh: No, Karan. For fourteen long years, we have worked together, there is nothing that is not known of me to him and there is nothing of each other that is not known to each other. But, I am not going to say anything good or bad about him and this all will go with me in my heart.

Karan Thapar: Let me put it like this. Is the Samajwadi Party's good behaviour towards you the price of your silence?

Amar Singh: No. They had not been good at all. Ram Gopal Yadav--Mulayam's brother--called me insane.

Karan Thapar: So, isn't there the danger that they continue to provoke you, you will use the ‘Bramhastra’ in your hands as self-defence?

Amar Singh: Not at all. I don't have any Bramhastra and even if I would have had that, I would not have done that even if Mulayam Singh's--in a way, Mulayam Singh is misbehaving. Mulayam Singh's brother is misbehaving means Mulayam Singh's family is misbehaving.

Karan Thapar: So, there is no threat from Amar Singh to Mulayam Singh?

Amar Singh: Absolutely not.

Karan Thapar: No matter how much you know?

Amar Singh: There is a threat to Mulayam Singh by his own deeds. There is threat to Mulayam Singh and family if they misbehave in such a disgraceful manner. His brother each time he abuses me; he creates sympathy for me in my home turf.

Karan Thapar: But there is no threat from you to Mulayam Singh?

Amar Singh: Absolutely not. There is threat to Mulayam Singh and his family by their own behaviour.

Karan Thapar: Amar Singh, a pleasure talking to you.

Amar Singh: Thank you.

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