Improve ties, but don't forget Kashmir: Pak PM

Pakistan Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gillani has said that Pakistan want to have good relations with India and it want to have even better trade relations with India but at the same time India and Pakistan should think about the point of view of the people of Kashmir. Gillani was speaking to Karan Thapar in his first ever interview to CNN-IBN on Devil’s Advocate.

Karan Thapar: Prime Minister, over the last four years, under Pervez Musharraf and Manmohan Singh, the two countries believe they have, perhaps, the best four years. How can you, as a new civilian prime minister, ensure that that momentum is continued and, in fact, relations improve?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: I differ with you. I think the Indo-Pak relations were much better during the tenure of Benazir Bhutto and even Mr Nawaz Sharif. We were coming very close to each other. Benazir Bhutto, when Rajiv Gandhi came to Pakistan and I was a federal minister, we had a meeting with them and we signed a few agreements and when Nawaz Sharif was prime minister, Vajpayee came to Pakistan. He went to the place of Resolution, and they sorted out lot of issues.

Karan Thapar: So you want to build on what Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif have laid down as foundations?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Certainly, we want to.

Karan Thapar: But you’re determined to take it further and make the relations better?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Yes. There are a few core issues, which we want to resolve. At the same time, we want to maintain excellent and extremely friendly relations with our neighbours.

Karan Thapar: Let’s then start by talking about Kashmir. What will your government’s approach to the Kashmir issue be?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: With the aspirations of the people of Kashmir.

Karan Thapar: The reason I ask is that in April, your Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi told Dawn, ‘we have been approaching this problem from a particular angle, let’s try a different approach’; what is that different approach?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: I think that is maybe out of context. What our point of view – it’s very, very clear – is according to the Resolutions of the UN and the aspirations of the people of Kashmir.

Karan Thapar: So you are going back to the United Nations Resolutions. Even though General Musharraf and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh seemed to indicate that they were prepared to move beyond them, you are going back to them?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: We want to go beyond that but at the same time we have to resolve the core issue, as well.

Karan Thapar: Let me try and explore your thinking a bit more. Do you agree with the parameters that Musharraf and Manmohan Singh laid down to try and sort out the Kashmir issue, parameters which were: There should be no alteration of boundaries, the LoC cannot be a boundary, and boundaries must be made irrelevant.

Yousuf Raza Gillani: These were half-baked things. They didn’t have the mandate of the Parliament and now the new government has taken over. We have a Government, which unanimously elected the Prime Minister we have the support of all the political forces in the country. Therefore, I think that needs to be debated, that should be re-thought, and maybe the Parliament thinks the same.

Karan Thapar: So you’re saying that these are half-baked parameters?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Yes.

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Karan Thapar: Even though I should point out to you that in India many people felt they were good markers towards a solution.

Yousuf Raza Gillani: But in the people-to-people context they want that we should have good relations. And we also want the same. At the same time, we have to have a little thorough exercise on that.

Karan Thapar: General Musharraf, in fact, in his thinking went one step further; he spoke of the possibility of a solution along the principles of self-government and joint management. Although the Indian Government never formally responded to that, the idea got a lot of praise from the Press and from public opinion. Do you agree with that sort of thinking?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Actually, that was the President’s idea, but this is not the idea of the newly-elected Government.

Karan Thapar: So in many ways you are moving from President Musharraf’s ideas, whether it’s the three parameters, whether it’s the concepts of self-government and joint management.

Yousuf Raza Gillani: It’s not moving away; it’s that we have to apply our mind to that. We have to take the other political forces into confidence because this government is a broad-base government – it’s a coalition of several parties, and we have to take everybody on board.

Karan Thapar: When you say you are not moving away, but at the same time you say you have to apply your mind, are you saying you want to examine these ideas and think about them? You may end up agreeing with them, you may end up disagreeing with them, but you first want to think for yourself about them – is that your position?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: But at the same time, I have mentioned earlier, we also have to resolve the core issues.

Karan Thapar: And you identify the core issue as what?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Kashmir.

Karan Thapar: And on Kashmir you are saying the start has to be with the UN Resolution? Is that what I understood you to say earlier on?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Yes, exactly, and with the aspirations of the people of Kashmir.

Karan Thapar: When you say the start has to be with the UN Resolutions, many in India hearing this might feel disappointed. They might feel that an attempt has been made in the last four years around the UN Resolution, you are – in a sense – re-emphasising the UN Resolution and, perhaps, turning the clock back.

Yousuf Raza Gillani: This is not exactly what you think about it; it is that the people of Pakistan – who had given the mandate to the new Government – have a tremendous feeling that we want to resolve the Kashmir issue. Maybe, the procedures, the modalities are different.

Karan Thapar: You also said that the approach to Kashmir has to be in accord with the aspirations of the Kashmiri people.

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Exactly.

Karan Thapar: Are you – in a sense – giving them a veto over any decision that India and Pakistan may come to, jointly?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: That means they should be on board.

Karan Thapar: But not a veto? Consulted, but not a veto?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Exactly.

Karan Thapar: What you’re saying sounds to me a little different from what Mr Zardari said to me in March, when I interviewed him for this programme. He said that whilst Kashmir is important and it mustn’t be forgotten, the two countries shouldn’t let themselves be hostages to the UN Resolution. In a sense, your position is different.

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Yousuf Raza Gillani: It doesn’t mean that he didn’t want to resolve the Kashmir issue.

Karan Thapar: Oh, absolutely!

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Yes?

Karan Thapar: Except that he wasn’t emphasising the UN Resolutions, you are.

Yousuf Raza Gillani: We want to have good relations with India, we want to have even trade relations with India, we share lot of commonalities, but at the same time, we have to have the point of view of the Kashmiri people.

Karan Thapar: Let me, then, approach this a little differently. Many people in India and Pakistan say that whilst Kashmir is important and it mustn’t be forgotten, nonetheless, it mustn’t stop progress in other areas of the India-Pakistan relationship.

Yousuf Raza Gillani: To that extent, I agree.

Karan Thapar: You agree?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: To that extent – if it is not forgotten.

Karan Thapar: Absolutely – if Kashmir is not forgotten, you can still have progress in other areas.

Yousuf Raza Gillani: But there will be lot of hindrances.

Karan Thapar: In other words you are saying Kashmir is not a stumbling block. It mustn’t be forgotten but it mustn’t stop improvement in other areas.

Yousuf Raza Gillani: To some extent, it’s true. But at the same time, we have to have stable relations, so this issue has to be resolved.

Karan Thapar: Absolutely. Now, Asif Zardari, in that interview that I mentioned, said that the way forward was for the two countries to build trade relations, to increase inter-dependence so that both have vested interests in close relations with each other. Would you agree with that?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: That’s right.

Karan Thapar: In which case, how do you propose to boost trade relations?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: In fact, for example, if we want to improve relations, there can be cultural relations, there can be trade relations, and in trade relations we have lot of things which are common, which can be improved, like the cement industry – we can do that. And we can have a lot of trade as far as food is concerned.

Karan Thapar: What about energy?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: We are already doing that – IPI – that is from Iran-Pakistan-India. We just met the President of Iran.

Karan Thapar: As an indication of your serious intents to improve trade relations, would you be prepared to grant India Most Favoured Nation status? It’s something which Pakistani governments haven’t done, it might be an opportunity to do it.

Yousuf Raza Gillani: But we want to have an even playing field for both the countries.

Karan Thapar: So you want something in return.

Yousuf Raza Gillani: That should be equally treated.

Karan Thapar: Is there something in mind that you would like in return for MFN status?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: We can think on those lines, too.

Karan Thapar: And this is something you can discuss with Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee when he comes at the end of this month?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Certainly. We are even expecting Manmohan Singh’s visit to Pakistan.

Karan Thapar: When are you expecting it? Is the date fixed?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: I don’t know but I’ve been told by the Foreign Office that he’s coming.

Karan Thapar: Let me put it like this: In that interview I keep referring to, Asif Zardari said that if trade can be boosted, confidence and trust between the two countries can be built up and then an environment can be created which can make it easier to sort out the Kashmir issue. Would you accept that approach?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Yes, I totally accept that approach.

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Karan Thapar: So the way forward is not to forget Kashmir, boost trade, improve confidence and improve trust, create an environment that will facilitate, and then, in that environment, sort out Kashmir.

Yousuf Raza Gillani: That would be a conducive environment. There will be confidence-building and we can come closer.

Karan Thapar: So on this issue – how you take the relationship forward via trade – create an environment and improve Kashmir – you and Asif Zardari are completely one.

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Certainly, yes.

Karan Thapar: Prime Minister, from the Indian perspective, the biggest irritant in India-Pakistan relations is the Indian belief that the terrorism that we experience is financed, planned and executed by groups like the Lashkar-e-Toiba and the Jaish-e-Mohammad in Pakistan, with the connivance if not the outright assistance of the ISI. How do you respond to that concern?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Now you’re coming back with the same question which I repeated earlier – the core issue of Kashmir. But I want to tell you that after the earthquake of 2005, lot of people came in for aid in our part of Kashmir and even the United Nations and other journalists, media. They all came in and they didn’t find anything like this where you’d see terrorism activities taking place.

Karan Thapar: So these concerns, you believe, are unfounded.

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Yes.

Karan Thapar: Completely?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Completely.

Karan Thapar: The reason I bring it up is that in an interview to this programme in September, Benazir Bhutto gave India three critical assurances – first, she said, if she became Prime Minister, her government would ensure that any militant or terrorist training camps in NWFP – or what you call Azad Kashmir – would be shut down. Do you stand by that?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Maybe she had that opinion at that time, but at the moment, I visited Kashmir and at the same time, the whole world is there for the reconstruction of Kashmir and there is no such camp.

Karan Thapar: So there are no camps in NWFP –

Yousuf Raza Gillani: No.

Karan Thapar: - No camps in Azad Kashmir?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: No. You were talking about Kashmir.

Karan Thapar: I was talking about camps in NWFP and Azad Kashmir

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Then you can ask me a separate question.

Karan Thapar: If there are militant-training camps there, will you shut them down?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: We are already working with the whole world against extremism and terrorism. Our point of view is extremely clear that we are against terrorism, we are against extremism. We have lost our own leader Benazir Bhutto because of that – how can I deny that? But at the same time, we are fighting against terrorism.

Karan Thapar: The second assurance that Benazir Bhutto gave me in September was that if the Indian Government were to ask for access to people like Masood Azhar and Hafiz Mohammed Syed, her government would seriously consider giving it. Today, you’re Prime Minister, she’s not. Would you have the same approach?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: If there are authentic proofs and if they want to share them with us, of course we can think on those lines.

Karan Thapar: So the onus of providing proofs is with the Indians.

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Exactly.

Karan Thapar: The third assurance that Benazir Bhutto gave us is that if India was to seek the extradition of Dawood Ibrahim – who even the Americans consider a terrorist – her government would not stand in the way. Will you stand by that commitment?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Because I have not studied that, I’ll have to be briefed about that. At random, I can’t say anything.

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Karan Thapar: But you have an open mind?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Yes, I have an open mind.

Karan Thapar: You have no pre-conceived desires to say no?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Of course.

Karan Thapar: If there’s a good case, you would happily extradite Dawood Ibrahim?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Again, the onus is on your side.

Karan Thapar: Let me tell you what many people hearing this interview might conclude. They’ll say that Prime Minister is very reassuring; he clearly wants good relations with India. Maybe he’s not so willing to concede as Benazir was that there are militant activities and militant training camps but then, Benazir was an opposition leader –

Yousuf Raza Gillani: In Kashmir.

Karan Thapar: - in Kashmir. And Benazir was an opposition leader. You’re Prime Minister, your responsibilities are different.

But at the same time, many people will say, he has a problem, he’s under pressure from the Americans to take strong, stringent action on the western border with Afghanistan; that’s going to create tension for him and unpopularity and therefore, he may have to compensate by reducing pressure on militants and terrorists and allowing them greater access into Kashmir. Will you compensate one with the other?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Actually, we are very clear. We are fighting the war on terrorism not for America; we are fighting a war for our own country because, as I mentioned, we lost our own leader because of terrorism.

Karan Thapar: So you’re firm on terrorism?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: I’m very firm on terrorism. And we will not negotiate with militants.

Karan Thapar: You will not negotiate with militants?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: No, not until and unless they throw their arms.

Karan Thapar: This includes militants who want to carry our jihad and violence in Kashmir on the Indian side of the border?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Anywhere.

Karan Thapar: Anywhere?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Anywhere.

Karan Thapar: The reason I ask is that Dawn News on April 25 reported that several banned Kashmiri outfits have changed names and begun functioning again. The outfits they were referring to Jaish, the al Badr, Hizb-ul-Mujahideen, Harkat-ul-Mujahideen. Would your government take action against these banned outfits now, changing names and functioning again?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Well, the flower called by any other name smells equally good. We are against terrorism and we are against them. We will not be supporting any terrorist.

Karan Thapar: In other words, Jaish and al Badr or the Lashkar-e-Toiba can change names as many times as they want but you will continue to ban them.

Yousuf Raza Gillani: We are for that, we are against terror.

Karan Thapar: So there is no change regardless of what Dawn News may be saying?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Yes, true.

Karan Thapar: The second issue that could be an irritant in Indo-Pakistan relations is the case of the Indian prisoner Sarabjit Singh. Your government has stayed his execution, the Indian government has approached you for a pardon. What’s your response to the Government?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: I have advised the President that he should stop his execution and it should be reviewed by the Ministries of Interior, Foreign Affairs, Law and Justice and Human Rights.

Karan Thapar: And that is why the execution was deferred when it was a few days ago?

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Yousuf Raza Gillani: Yes.

Karan Thapar: And now the matter is being reviewed by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Interior and Law.

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Yes.

Karan Thapar: And this review is with a view to a pardon?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: They will think on those lines, they will consider whether the case is fit or not and they will take the decision.

Karan Thapar: Personally, as an individual and as someone who has suffered time in gaol, would you be in favour of a pardon?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: That is the reason I’ve advised the President.

Karan Thapar: In the interview that Asif Zardari gave me in March, he said that if invited, the new Prime Minister would visit India, accompanied by Asif Zardari himself, Nawaz Sharif, Asfandyar Wali Khan (of ANP), Fazlur Rehman (of MMA) and even Altaf Hussain. That statement went down extremely well in India. Today, you are that new Prime Minister, do you have plans for such a visit?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Prime Minister Manmohan Singh rang me up when I was elected as the Prime Minister and I am grateful to him for his felicitations, his congratulations. I also talked to the leader of the opposition and we are expecting his visit to Pakistan. Whatever our co-Chairperson Asif Ali Zardari has said, I think it’s a good idea.

Karan Thapar: But you are expecting Dr Manmohan Singh in Pakistan first?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Yes.

Karan Thapar: Any visit you pay will be after that?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Yes, after that.

Karan Thapar: Let me end tonight’s interview by saying this: If Dr Manmohan Singh is listening to this interview, you have a message for him?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: I only wish him to know that we want to maintain excellent relations with our neighbours, especially India.

Karan Thapar: And can he trust you on your assurance that you’ll do everything to stop terrorism?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: I think there’s no doubt about it.

Karan Thapar: And can he also believe that you’re reaching out a hand of friendship and genuinely sort out Kashmir?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: I think so, because I have the support of majority of people in Pakistan.

Karan Thapar: So you want to be a true friend not just of Manmohan Singh, but of India?

Yousuf Raza Gillani: There are a few problems which I’ve earlier mentioned that if we resolve the core issues, I think there is no hesitation and I’m very clear about it. We were coming closer and I have quoted two-three past presidents also.

Karan Thapar: And you want to come closer, still.

Yousuf Raza Gillani: Yes.

Karan Thapar: Prime Minister, let’s leave this interview there. Tomorrow, I want to talk to you about the problems you face in your country.