Face the Nation: Will Pak act?

New Delhi: At the end of two days of Indo-Pak Foreign Secretary-level talks, the proposed Joint Anti-terror Mechanism has become a reality. But, there is much more to it than what meets the eye.

The Joint Anti-terror Mechanism is to be managed solely by the Indian and Pakistani Foreign Offices. It will have three members headed by an Additional Secretary from each side. Its mandate would be to consider counter-terrorism measures, including regular and timely sharing of information.

However, despite the Joint Anti-terror Mechanism, India didn't share any evidence with Pakistan on the Mumbai blasts, nor was there any agreement on the Siachen issue. Nonetheless, written material was handed over to Pakistan on other terror attacks that took place last year.

So, will Pakistan act on the terror issue? This was the question addressed by an elite panel on CNN-IBN's Prime Time show Face The Nation . On the panel were G Parthasarathy, former Indian high commissioner to Pakistan; and Prof Radha Kumar of Jamia Milia Islamia. Vidya Shankar Aiyar moderated the discussion.

Parthasarathy, a man known for his candid views on the relation with Pakistan, is not quote sure whether the Joint Anti-terror Mechanism is good enough? "We already have a mechanism going on between the two Home Secretaries. If they can’t sort these things out, two Additional Secretaries can’t sort it either. The issue is not the mechanism, the issue is: does Pakistan continue to use terrorism as an instrument of state policy to achieve its foreign policy ends?"

Parthasarathy says there is no doubt that Pakistan is doing so in Afghanistan. "The terrorist groups that Gen Musharraf is supposed to have banned, be it Jaish-e-Mohammad or Lashkar-e-Toiba are still functioning under new names. On the day of the talks, people died in Jammu and Kashmir with weapons that obviously do not grow on the trees of Kashmir, but are coming somewhere from outside. We have had Pakistani nationals arrested in Mysore and at various other places," he points out.

"This mechanism is, in fact, a trap that we have walked into. We had successfully internationalised the issue of terrorism. But now everybody is going to say, ‘take it to the joint mechanism’," he adds.

Parthasarathy further states that four months have gone by since the blasts ripped off Mumbai. "How are you going to answer the relatives of those who died in those train blasts? Are you going to say, 'sorry I have not yet taken this up with Pakistan?' From everything which has emerged, there have been at least 50 major cases of terrorism in Jammu and Kashmir, and in at least 20 cases Pakistani nationals involved in it have either been killed or incarcerated."

The former high commissioner criticised the Indian Government for not taking up the issue with the Pakistani side. "Does that mean that the Government does not consider Jammu and Kashmir and terrorism there a part of terrorism against India?"

Prof Radha Kumar won't agree. He says, "On the question of the Additional Secretaries versus Home Secretaries, as far as I can understand this, the choice is to pick people dealing with the UN so that we bring this into UN Security Council Resolution 1373." He said he was referring to India’s Additional Secretary of External Affairs Ministry, K C Singh, and his Pakistani counterpart Tariq Usman Haider being associated with the UN.

"Since they are both dealing with the UN, this means there is an attempt to link this counter-terrorism mechanism to Resolution 1373 and the UN mechanism for counter-terrorism," he points out.

According to Radha Kumar, even though there is no official link as yet, "I am assuming that this allows you to establish a link. Now, assuming that it links up with the UN Resolution 1373, it's mandatory for all states to cooperate. The UN has set up a counter-terrorism office with working groups that force countries to check terrorism."

Parthasarathy, however, doesn't think that way. "The Additional Secretary from our side is not going to be able to do anything more than what the Home Secretary already does. In fact, this is going to dilute and deflect the attention away from the international communities. Every time now we tell the international community that this is a terrorist act sponsored by Pakistan, they will say please go and discuss it in the joint mechanism. We have walked into a trap starting with the Prime Minister’s ill-advised statement in Havana that Pakistan is a victim of terrorism like India."

"The fact is, Pakistan is a victim of terrorism sponsored by its own organisations created by the ISI. Whereas our country is a victim of terrorism that has been created by Pakistan. Equating the two, we have walked into a trap. We are going to find it very difficult to get out of it," Parthasarthy insists.

Is terror a state policy of Pakistan?

Tasnim Aslam, spokesperson for the Foreign Affairs Ministry of Pakistan, says Lashkar-e-Toiba doesn't exist any more. “That organisation does not exist now. But the people who once belonged to Lashkar-e-Toiba are still there. First of all, we do not have sufficient evidence against them to take action. Secondly, we do not believe that we can put suspects against the wall and shoot them on the basis on mere suspicion.”

Asked to comment on reports that a Member of Pakistan Parliament, Tariq Hasan, has claimed to have links with a banned organisation in Pakistan, she said: "They are there, they are members of the society and they do have had links with the Lashkar. But that doesn’t means that a particular Member of Parliament or those who were once part of Lashkar-e-Toiba be put against wall and shot. It’s not possible. If that were the case, believe me there are many in India who would have deserved similar action."

Parthasarathy doesn't take this argument. "This is a facetious argument. Yes, we have people with criminal records in our Parliament. But they are not carrying out jihad in Pakistan. The fact of the matter is that Lashkar has changed its name. It functions under the name of Jamaat-Ud-Dawa -- a charitable organisation. This organisation is banned not just by India, it has been banned by the United States. It's a failure of our government that we have not yet moved the UN to ban Jamaat. We have been very lackadaisical."

"On Urdu press, Hafiz Mohammad Saeed -- the leader of Jamaat-Ud-Dawa -- everyday talks of nothing but waging a war or jihad against India, sending his people into India, waging jihad to liberate the Muslims of India. He, in fact, has been carrying out this by many different ways. His people have been arrested in Mysore. So what is Pakistan doing," Parthasarthy asks.

Radha Kumar points out that "the Lashkar, which went underground in 2000-2001, claims responsibility for many terrorist attacks in India on its website. Here is the evidence if Pakistan is looking for it.:

Jamaat-Ud-Dawa is the parent organisation, whereas Lashkar was its armed wing. All that has happened is that Lashkar no longer formally calls itself the ‘armed wing’. But the Lashkar cells continue to operate, training continues to happen and money continues to flow. There is plenty of reason for the Pakistani Government to act against Lashkar and there are plenty of ways in which they can act, Radha Kumar argues.

Parthasarathy also notes that every Western organisation that went to Muzaffarabad for relief work spoke of having seen Lashkar guys with weapons. These men have come into India several times with weapons and have been killed.

Interestingly, the joint statement between India and Pakistan says, "Its mandate would be to consider counter-terrorism measures, including through regular and timely sharing of information.” While the entire mandate is just to consider counter-terrorism measures, there are doubts as to what it is likely to achieve.

According to Parthasarathy, "terrorism as an instrument of state policy of Pakistan Government. You can share any intelligence that you may want. But as long as Pakistan continues to use terrorism, tolerates groups like Jaish-e-Mohammad and Lashkar under new names, gives them weapons and allows them to train, there is going to be no dearth of evidences. These are things being written about even by Pakistani journalists," he claims

So is the anti terror mechanism going nowhere.

"Of course. It is not going to take us anywhere," Parthasarathy claims. "I saw Dawood's house in Karachi and drove past it. I told the Pakistan Foreign Office about it and they said, 'look, Dawood is not in our country'. They are going to do the same thing here. As long as policies do not change, terrorism is going to continue."

Radha Kumar has a different opinion. "A few months ago, Tasnim Aslam speaking to CNN-IBN had completely denied that such a thing as Lashkar or people affiliated with Lashkar existed in the first place. It's my belief that this mechanism has made it necessary for her to even come to the point of saying that there are affiliated people around, but then they need evidence to take action against them. The way I see it, this mechanism's working will be inch-by-inch, pushing for a rule of law, collecting evidence against terrorism and terrorists, and eventually leading to action over a period of time by Pakistan. It would never be easy to get Pakistan to act," he says.

The Siachen equation

Pakistan Foreign Secretary Riaz Muhammad Khan said clearly in his media briefing that so long as the word authentication is not particularly used and the intention of the Indian Government is not to claim over the Siachen area, they are willing to accommodate India’s interest in the final agreement.

"The 1949 Agreement says that the glacier is Indian territory. Our soldiers have shed lives to protect it. You hand it over to Pakistan, walk out of Siachen, and Gen Musharraf will do another Kargil, what do you do then?" Parthasarathy asks.

Radha Kumar suggests a policing mechanism. "I would assume that if you have an agreement for disengagement and withdrawal from the agreed positions, then you are also going to need a policing mechanism to ensure that no one violates that. This aspect has not been discussed so far."

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