BJP sure Vajpayee era recall will win votes

Thirty days before voting starts for the Lok Sabha elections, is the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) in serious trouble. Differences within the party have only added to the trouble that the party faced since the break-up with ally BJD in Orissa. Karan Thapar asked this to Ravi Shankar Prasad, BJP national spokesperson and Rajya Sabha MP.

Karan Thapar: Let us start with the break up of the eleven-year old alliance with the Biju Janata Dal (BJD) 30 days before voting. Can you accept that this is a damaging setback to your chances of forming a government?

Ravi Shankar Prasad: I would be wrong if I say it is not a setback—it is indeed. But what has really pained is that an eleven-year old relationship could be terminated like this, on an issue which was really negotiable. It could have been resolved.

Karan Thapar: But everyone knew that this problem was in the offing for weeks, if not for months. Yet when it happened, your party president Rajnath Singh publicly said it was absolutely unexpected. Was the BJP in a state of denial?

Ravi Shankar Prasad: No. Who calls the shots in the BJD? Obviously, Naveen Patnaik does. Two days before negotiations he told interlocutors and friends in our party that he would remain with the BJP. We needed to trust him.

Karan Thapar: You are saying he deliberately misled BJP interlocutors just two weeks before the break-up?

Ravi Shankar Prasad: I would not call it misleading. That is the impression he gave and we had no reason to doubt him. Maybe there was pressure from his peers in the party.

Karan Thapar: The truth is the moment the civic poll results came out in Bhubaneswar, Cuttack, Kandhamal and Mayurbhanj, the BJD had performed spectacularly whilst you had performed extremely poorly.

Naveen Patnaik didn’t hide that he wanted a reallocation of seats, and your response was to insist upon maintaining the status quo in the Vidhan Sabha whilst actually wanting an increase in the Lok Sabha seats. So your position was asking for trouble.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: First of all, Municipal and local elections cannot become yardsticks. The BJP has won all the mayor seats in Uttar Pradesh, yet we lost the Vidhan Sabha.

Karan Thapar: But your ally was making it the yardstick and you refused to understand.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: We were in discussions. When Naveen Patnaik finally called (BJP Rajya Sabha MP) Chandan Mitra, he said take it or go, not even leaving a day’s notice.

Karan Thapar: You said you were in discussions. The truth is you were not. You began the negotiation by demanding that status quo be maintained in the Vidhan Sabha and an increase in the Lok Sabha. You were completely ignoring his request for a reallocation of seats.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: Let me clarify that we had ultimately proposed: give us one additional Lok Sabha (seat) and reduce a little in the Vidhan Sabha. That is part of negotiation. When you discuss you wait, you don’t terminate like this.

Karan Thapar: The problem is that instead of discussing you were deliberately delaying and prevaricating. You were adding frustration, tension and anger to his already existing concerns. You were mishandling the negotiation.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: I am afraid that is not the right word to say. Naveen Patnaik has direct access to L K Advaniji and to top BJP leaders. Things could have easily been sorted out, and therefore we are deeply saddened.

Karan Thapar: Did Naveen Patnaik not contact Mr Advani?

Ravi Shankar Prasad: To the best of my information—before terminating it (alliance) at least we expected him to have told Advaniji.

Karan Thapar: That is at the last moment but during the months—and let us be honest this negotiation went on for several months. At many points Naveen Patnaik contacted Mr Advani and he did not get not just get back a satisfactory response, he didn’t get back even a negotiating position.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: I would say this is completely wrong, factually speaking. When interlocutors discuss, ultimately the matter comes to the leader. When he (Naveen Patnaik) thought things are not going right, he could have told Advaniji ‘sorry, I am terminating.’

But that was not the case, he told Chandan Mitra this is the position—31 Vidhan Sabha (seats) and five Lok Sabha—take it. He didn’t even give one day’s time. I am not quibbling about it but this not the way to terminate an eleven-year old alliance.

Karan Thapar: The reason he took that drastic step was because at no point during the negotiation did the BJP do what was the rational, sensible and logical thing to do: which is to say to him we understand you want a reallocation of seats, this is the minimum we can live with.

You never indicated what your minimum was, instead delayed, you prevaricated, you added anger and concern to his already frustration, you misread him and you mishandled the negotiation as a result.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: I am afraid Mr Karan Thapar, we do not need to have negotiations to please Karan Thapar. We are old handlers of allies. As far as Mr Navin Patnaik is concerned, we have fought the Lok Sabha together and the assembly elections together, and therefore we trust each other. These kind of hagglings keep going on in the initial state. And finally we comes to a stage when we find a way out. That way out was not allowed to be found out! That happened because of pressure from the allies, his friends in his party who were keen to break up the alliance for their own sake. Navin Patnaik would reject the same.

Karan Thapar: You are saying that in fact he did not act of his own thinking, he was acting under the pressure of his friends and allies. In other words, he was pushed into it by the people around him.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: Obviously, without charge. From day one we have been saying. It was a part of the official stand. He was misguided by some of his close allies and some of his closest friends and we have named them.

Karan Thapar: You are talking about Jai Panda?

Ravi Shankar Prasad: I will not take any names.

Karan Thapar: Pyari Mohan Mohapatra?

Ravi Shankar Prasad: Obviously, Pyari Mohan Mohapatra, yes! But today I will tell you this. We have fought elections together and we represent the anti-Congress space in Orissa. And the happiest party today is the Congress, because do not mistake one thing Karan, the Congress party is yet to come out with a response on this and Mr Ghulam Nabi Azad, the in-charge to Orissa, never criticised Mr Navin Patnaik in his visit to Bhubaneshwar.

Karan Thapar: This, in fact brings me to my next question. When he came out with what you call a derisory offer, you knew at that point that if you refused it and the alliance collapsed, it would be a bigger setback for you. It would be undermining L K Advani's chances of becoming Prime Minister and that it would be the unravelling of the NDA. Why did you not, at that point in time, swallow your pride and for the good of the NDA and for the good of the country as you see it, accept a derisory offer. At least you could have retained the NDA. Now you have lost everything.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: First of all, the NDA is intact.

Karan Thapar: It is not intact.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: Please! Many other allies have joined it and you know that. Ajit Singh is there. Chautala is there. AGP is there.

Karan Thapar: AGP has not joined the NDA. Publicly they have said that they have not joined the NDA

Ravi Shankar Prasad: AGP is supporting the BJP and the BJP is the top most group with the NDA. The larger issue that I am trying to point out Karan, is that when you go into political alliances, some degree of respectability is equally important. In making Navinbabu what he is today, the BJP has stood by him through the thick and thin.

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Karan Thapar: Maybe. But the bigger loser is you. Swallow your pride and retain the NDA. Over the issue of pride, you squandered the alliance and therefore the chances of L K Advani becoming the Prime Minister have been dashed. Would it not have been wiser, to accept the derisory offer, avert the trauma of the collapse?

Ravi Shankar Prasad: There are two ways of looking at it. They could have broken it in any other way. And the second one is that don't conclude, Karan that we have lost everything. We may be the underdog at the moment. But if I remember right, then in one of your programmes, there was a derisive kind of comment that there is victory again in Chhattisgarh, where I was the in-charge. And we won again. Again, you had doubts about Madhya Pradesh. And we won there too. So do not write us off. The people trust us.

Karan Thapar: Despite the fact that the alliance with the bigger party in Orissa has broken, despite the fact that you have no alliance in Orissa at all, do you believe that you can perform just as effectively as you did in 2004?

Ravi Shankar Prasad: No, no, my hunch is...

Karan Thapar: Your hunch is?

Ravi Shankar Prasad: No, no, my belief is...

Karan Thapar: Your belief is? Neither of them sound very confident!

Ravi Shankar Prasad: No, no, please do make this like a cross examination as in a court. I too am a political animal and know the reality. The reality is that the people of Orissa have a long tradition of anti-Congress-ism. While electing a Prime Minister, they would rather go for L K Advani and the BJP. And by the way, we have been getting 17 to 18 per cent votes and we are an equally significant player in Orissa.

Karan Thapar: Which is why four of your MLAs have already crossed over to the BJD and many from your cadres are demoralized and are threatening to cross over to the BJD. This is why you own MPs are going public and saying that we are not going to retain even seven seats, not even five. We will be lucky if we win three Lok Sabha seats!

Ravi Shankar Prasad: I am telling you that the BJD MPs are equally unhappy. They fear what is going to happen because of the division. And secondly, the (BJP) cadre is very, very enthusiastic.

Karan Thapar: Are you really saying to me that this has turned out to be a blessing in disguise for you?

Ravi Shankar Prasad: Obviously! It will turn out to be a great opportunity for us and it will see the people of Orissa would trust us.

Karan Thapar: Let us talk about the second biggest disaster to have hit the BJP so strongly straight at the centre that maybe, the party is weak in the knees. Your central election strategist, responsible for winning consecutive elections for the party in Bihar, Gujarat, Karnataka and Punjab - Arun Jaitley - now has serious differences with the party leadership to the extent where he has made it public that he does not intend to fulfil organisational and media duties. Happening just 30 days before the election, this is the worst possible blow imaginable.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: Let me clarify that Arunji is fully involved with the management of the elections. He is fully involved with all the other negotiations and campaign activities. Yes, he has raised certain issues.

Karan Thapar: Can I clarify? He has also made it clear that he will not be fulfilling the duties of a General Secretary and he will not be making any media appearances for the BJP. You need him more than anyone else in those capacities but he has opted out.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: I am again repeating. I am afraid Mr Arun Jaitley has not said anything to that effect. Yes, he has raised certain issues, very honestly. I think the party will address those issues and come to a proper consideration of the entire thing. BJP has a strong inner resilience to take care of these things.

Karan Thapar: Before we come to the issues that he has raised, I want to point out to you that you know and I know that Arun Jaitley has told the party leadership that in his own mind, he has ceased to be the party's general secretary. In fact, The Hindu has reported that he may as well formalise this with a resignation in writing on the 13th of May. Things have come almost to a breaking point.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: Well, all I can say, Karan is that these may be your readings. News does appear in newspapers, I cannot say yes or no to that, when you are fighting correct all the time. But yes, he has raised certain issues and the party would address them and a way out will be found out. And by the way, let me tell you that as far as the BJP is concerned and the party's campaign is concerned, everything is going on smoothly and properly.

Karan Thapar: But can you confirm to me if this is so or not, that Arun Jaitley has told the party leadership that in his own mind, he has ceased to be the party's general secretary?

Ravi Shankar Prasad: What is in the mind of Mr Jaitley, how can I say?

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Karan Thapar: It has been communicated to the party leadership, from Rajnath Singh to L K Advani, possibly to Jaswant Singh and even to Sushma Swaraj.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: No, no. Sorry, Karan. On these issues I would not like to make any comments.

Karan Thapar: But you are not denying it?

Ravi Shankar Prasad:No, on a matter that Mr Arun Jaitley has to decide, I would not like to make any comments. I would only say in all fairness that he has raised certain issues and the party is considering the issues. A proper way out will be found out due to the inner unity of the party.

Karan Thapar: Alright, then let's come to the issues that he has raised. It is crystal clear that he believed that the appointment of Sudhanshu Mittal as co-conveneor of Assam in the north east states is not just wrong, but that in choosing him, the BJP is reflecting an image that may be undesirable at election time and that this is undermining the election prospect. How come your chief election strategist's views are not adhered to and agreed? How come he is ignored on this fundamental point?

Ravi Shankar Prasad: Karan Thapar, I would not like to make any comments on this at this stage.

Karan Thapar: But you just said that these issues will be addressed. How can you address them if you are ignoring them?

Ravi Shankar Prasad: No, fair enough. That is your assessment of the party. Jaitleyji is a senior leader of the party. Both Jaitleyji and Rajnathji know each other and there is an inner mechanism in the party and things can be sorted out.

Karan Thapar: Well, you keep saying that things will be sorted out. I think you said it four or five times. How will they be sorted out, if Arun Jaitley's views are being ignored?

Ravi Shankar Prasad: First of all, they will not be sorted out for the satisfaction of Karan Thapar in a TV studio. It will be sorted out in a way BJP wants it to be sorted out.

Karan Thapar: By sweeping it under the carpet?

Ravi Shankar Prasad: No, not at all. I tell you, it will be sorted out very shortly.

Karan Thapar: You say, very shortly. What is very shortly? Because it continues four or five days.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: Beyond this, Karan Thapar, I do not wish to answer any questions (on the issue). I can only tell you one thing that the campaign is going on in full swing. The issues are there and they will be sorted out.

Karan Thapar: You say that the campaign is going on in full swing. Look at what that is done to the party. Look at what the newspapers say. Arun Jaitley has been supported by Narendra Modi and possibly by L K Advani. On the other side, Rajnath Singh has been supported by Venkaiah Naidu and Sushma Swaraj. Instead of presenting a united house to the world, you are a quarelling party. 30 days before elections, this is disastrous!

Ravi Shankar Prasad: I would say that you are going too much by the speculative stories in the media. I do not grudge that, too.

Karan Thapar: I am going by what your partymen are saying in public and in private except that they are not saying it on camera.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: Being a media person, you are equally likely to believe these speculative stories.

Karan Thapar: The reality is staring you in the face and you are ignoring it?

Ravi Shankar Prasad: These speculative stories do not merit my comments.

Karan Thapar: Are you saying to me that today, when the BJP has become a story itself on the frontpage, has it not done any damage to your image?

Ravi Shankar Prasad: No, I can only tell you this. One cannot be very happy about it, to be very honest with you. But the way in which you are presenting it, is something that I do not buy at all. There are issues and they will be addressed. There is no problem.

Karan Thapar: If your main election strategist is today so separated today from the party leadership, that he would not even attend the party's CEC meeting, then are you not suggesting that (a) this party looks divided and unhappy and (b) that he is not committed 100 per cent to what he is to do?

Ravi Shankar Prasad: First of all, do not question the commitment of Mr Arun Jaitley. I know what he is doing. He is a closed friend of mine. He is involved with the campaign fully, okay? I can tell you very clearly and categorically.

Karan Thapar: He has tied one hand behind his back voluntarily, he has opted out of meetings willingly, he turns up late for meetings that he is forced and bullied to attend. That becomes a story. Is this a party that will gain electoral governance? Are you giving people confidence in yourself or undermining the confidence that they have?

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Ravi Shankar Prasad: Well Karan Thapar, if one issue is there, that is there to be taken as reflective of the party and of its capacity and governance, this is something we do not buy. What is happening with the Samajwadi Party and the Congress party? What kind of lecture is Amar Singh giving to Sonia Gandhi, day in and day out?

Karan Thapar: I thought that you are a party with a difference. You are now equating yourself with your rivals.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: Surely, we are a party with a capacity to take decisions and to put our problems in the right perspective to find a solution.

Karan Thapar: Do you know what they are saying? That a party with difference has now become a party with differences. The real difference is that in fact, it is a dispute between L K Advani and Rajnath Singh, where Mr Arun Jaitley is purely a front or a proxy. The real thing is that it is an issue between the president and the leader of the opposition and for that to happen, 30 days before the elections which might have brought you back to power, is something.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: I do grant you the flourishes of your English.

Karan Thapar: Mock me, as much as you want but you are not answering my question.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: The point is that the so-called differences that you are pointing out in the party's leadership are absolutely wrong, the party's fully right. I do not deny that the issues that Mr Arun Jaitley has raised will be addressed to the satisfaction of all concerned.

Karan Thapar: When? You keep saying that they will be addressed.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: I am not supposed to be accountable to Karan Thapar.

Karan Thapar: But you are answerable to the country.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: The party's decision will be taken very shortly.

Karan Thapar: The other thing is that the image of L K Advani who the party likes to believe as the party's strongman of politics, is crumbling under pressure. He is unable to take a decision and as a result of his weakness, differences are proliferating. As a result, this is undermining Advani's position as well.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: You are being grossly unfair to Mr Advani. Mr Advani is our leader and he has travelled 400 districts in this country for the last 50 years. He really is a strongman. But don't forget one thing, Karan, the BJP is not a single family party. You take decisions, you discuss things out and this is the way you maturely handle situations.

Karan Thapar: You say that it is not a single family party but at the moment in time, when L K Advani needed his second lieutenants to stay united for his election, those lieutenants are quarelling, they are disunited and they are undermining his chances. Just when he needed them most, they are letting him down.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: First of all, the campaign part of the party is wholly united, proper campaign strategies planning is going on and Advaniji is quite firm. Let me tell you that when the time comes, the people of India are going to trust him. Wait for the election results to come, instead of becoming the prophet of doom which you are always for the BJP.

Karan Thapar: Let me end by saying that if this is the picture of unity that you would like to project, I hate to think what it will look like if it was disunited because you are not doing any credit to yourself by the image you are projecting today.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: No, I think that this is being highly judgmental, this is not fair and the BJP is fully united. The larger issue is that the way the UPA has left a legacy of an insecure and suffering India, the people of the country will recall the governance of the NDA and Mr Vajpayee and would definitely vote the NDA substantially and to power on the general elections.

Karan Thapar: The people of India will certainly remember Mr Vajpayee for a golden age, but I do not think that it will give them an excuse to vote for you again.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: Surely, surely they will.

Karan Thapar: A pleasure talking to you Mr Ravi Shankar Prasad.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: Thank you.