India won't ease pressure on Pak: Chidambaram

Karan Thapar speaks to Home Minister P Chidambaram on Mumbai attacks investigation and why IPL matches couldn't be held along with elections.

Karan Thapar:Home Minister, let's start with your response to Pakistan's 30 questions which were related to the Mumbai terror strike. According to the Hindu, barring Ajmal Kasab's, the lone terrorist captured during the 26/11 Mumbai attack, confessional statements, Pakistan investigators have been given every primary investigative document available by the Mumbai police. Is the Hindu correct?

P Chidambaram:That is correct.

Karan Thapar:Which means that you have actually given the Pakistanis far more than they had asked for?

P Chidambaram:They asked questions. And if I was asking that question, I would expect a complete answer. We gave complete answers which would have satisfied me if I was the questioner.

Karan Thapar:Pakistan's Daily Times in particular quotes Pakistani officials saying that the information given is irrelevant and away from the target. How do you respond to that?

P Chidambaram:These are sources which do not want attribution. These are, I think, not very responsible people. Any lawyer who sees the 401-page document will know that everything Pakistan wants to take the investigation forward is there.

Karan Thapar:The one thing that hasn't been given according to the papers is Ajmal Kasab's confessional document. Why has that been withheld?

P Chidambaram:That is a confession before a judicial magistrate. And therefore, they want a certified copy of that document. A certified copy of that document can only be given if it is certified and given to us by the court. We have applied to court and once the court gives us a certified copy, we will pass it on.

Karan Thapar:So in due course, that confession will be passed on?

P Chidambaram: It is a public document, except that they wanted a certified copy.

Karan Thapar:The Hindu claims that you have given the Pakistanis CDs containing all the conversations recorded between the terrorists and their handlers in Pakistan. How many hours of conversation is this and what sort of details do they reveal?

P Chidambaram: I can't off hand tell you the number of minutes but it runs to several hundred minutes. Each mobile telephone has been used for quite a long time. I think one of them kept it open for several minutes time.

Karan Thapar:And you have given the actual voice rather than the transcripts?

P Chidambaram: We have given them both.

Karan Thapar:So that they can match voices and so that they have no hesitation in saying that the information is incomplete.

P Chidambaram:There is nothing incomplete. Whatever has been recorded has been given. When the phone was not used of course, there is no transcript. Whenever the phone was used and that was monitored at our end that is being given.

Karan Thapar:Do you believe that you have evidence that is either conclusive or very suggestive that points a finger towards official organisations or official agencies in Pakistan?

P Chidambaram: That I cannot say now. That will require investigation on Pakistan soil. It will require going to the controllers or the handlers, and then interrogating them. And finding out whether they had masters of their own. That access has not been given to us.

Karan Thapar:So at the moment, you may suspect that official agencies are involved but you don't have evidence to prove it?

P Chidambaram: No, I will put is this way. Given the overwhelming evidence that we have, I am entitled to presume that official agencies were involved. That presumption of course is rebut-able presumption, but that can be rebutted only if evidence to the contrary is available in the investigation.

Karan Thapar:Who is Colonel Saddatullah? Do you believe that he is a member of the Pakistani government or is he a retired official?

P Chidambaram: I don't know. All that we know is that there is a name that appears in the conversation. So, we need to go there to investigate. Pakistan has not allowed India to investigate. Pakistan has not given Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) the right to investigate.

Please remember, a few Americans were killed and the FBI, by American law, is obliged to investigate. FBI asked (for) access that has been denied. And Pakistan if also unwilling to investigate, now where do we go from here.

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Karan Thapar:It is believed that Colonel Saddatullah is a member of what is called the special communications Organisation (SCO); this has got close links with the Corps of Signals of the Pakistani army. If that is established, would that then prove that official agencies were involved?

P Chidambaram: It would.

Karan Thapar:And do you have reason to believe that these links that I am talking about could be established?

P Chidambaram: I don't know. Unless if someone is allowed to investigate.

Karan Thapar:So it all hinges upon the access and the investigation that follows hereafter?

P Chidambaram: The FBI is completely neutral, so why doesn't Pakistan let the FBI investigate.

Karan Thapar:If the Pakistanis were now to come to you and say that they want access to Ajmal Kasab to question him, would you give them that access?

P Chidambaram: No. Ajmal has asked for consular access. We have passed on that request to Pakistan. Pakistan, to the best of my knowledge, has not responded to my request.

So Pakistan would have to first admit that Kasab is Pakistani citizen and they will therefore provided him consular access. We have now stopped even at the very threshold.

Karan Thapar:So, until they can accept that he is Pakistani, there is no question of them being access to question?

P Chidambaram: No first, they will have to respond to his request for consular access. Without responding to your citizen's request for consular access, where is the question of asking another government permission to interrogate Kasab. That doesn't arise, isn't it?

Karan Thapar:Speaking not just as Home Minister, but as an eminent lawyer, which you also are, do you believe that you have given them enough so that they can press charges particularly against people like Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi and Zarar Shah (Laskar-e-Toiba leaders)?

P Chidambaram:They have enough information to interrogate Lakhvi and others. Of course, it has to be completed with further investigation on Pakistani soil and interrogating the suspects.

Karan Thapar:There is a certain amount of confusion on India's position to do with extradition. Is this the demand that you are insisting or is your position that you would be happy if the Pakistanis chose to prosecute and punish the accused on their soil.

P Chidambaram: Actually, it is either way. If crimes have been committed in the Pakistani soil, for example a crime of conspiracy, Pakistan law would oblige Pakistan to prosecute a criminal in Pakistan. We understand that, but if they do not wish to prosecute the criminal in their country, we would be quite happy, if they hand them over to India for prosecution and punishment. That is one set of accused. There is another set. Fugitives from Indian law, they have to be handed over to us.

Karan Thapar:On the questions of the fugitives, they have to be handed over?

P Chidambaram: Yes because they are fugitives from Indian law.

Karan Thapar:Let's talk about the steps that Pakistan has taken within the country itself. Have they made available to you any information that they got from interrogation from people that they have detained?

P Chidambaram: None so far.

Karan Thapar:Complete silence from Pakistan?

P Chidambaram: I have not seen any material given by Pakistan about their investigation.

Karan Thapar:Have we requested anything from them as yet?

P Chidambaram: Not yet.

Karan Thapar:Will you be doing so?

P Chidambaram: That is a matter which I will take a call later. I do not want to prejudice the trial in Mumbai.

Karan Thapar:Let's come to Hafeez Mohammed Saeed (Lashkar founder). As you know recently, his detention was increased by two months but have any charges been pressed against him?

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P Chidambaram: Not to my knowledge.

Karan Thapar:What about Masood Azhar? The Pakistanis claim that they don't know where he is. They say he may not be in Pakistan.

P Chidambaram:That is laughable, isn't it?

Karan Thapar:So to the best of your knowledge, you believe Masood Azhar is in Pakistan?

P Chidambaram: That is what my people and my intelligence tell me. He is in Pakistan.

Karan Thapar:This also suggests that the Pakistani government knows about where he is, but they are simply putting up a wall?

P Chidambaram: I think so.

Karan Thapar: Do you believe that in the present circumstances of political turmoil, the Pakistani government has either the time or the inclination to pursue the Mumbai terror prosecution or do you think inevitably they will set it aside?

P Chidambaram: It will be sad if they have neither the time nor the inclination but I am not going to take my eyes off the ball. We are going to remain focused on the matter. We will apply pressure. We will use coercive diplomacy. We will insist that the criminals are brought to trial.

Karan Thapar:Up till now you had substantial support from Washington and London, who have a vested stake in ensuring that the accused are brought to justice. Will you get that same support or might they now, sensing the turmoil in Pakistan, ease off a little?

P Chidambaram: No, I don't get that impression. In fact, all our visitors from the US have assured us that they will stand by us and help us in applying pressure on Pakistan to bring the criminals to trial.

Karan Thapar:One of the issues raised by Pakistan which many people in India too would like to hear answer is how did the terrorists get access to Indian SIM cards. What is your answer?

P Chidambaram: Indian SIM cards are available in the Indian market. Someone buys the SIM card and smuggles it across the border, goes via the Nepal route. It is not a difficult thing to do.

Karan Thapar:What I am hinting at is this: would there have been some level of Indian or local involvement in the Mumbai terror attack?

P Chidambaram: Mumbai investigations does not reveal any such involvement, except two Indians who prepared the maps.

Karan Thapar:Faheem Ansari and Sabahuddin?

P Chidambaram:Those were accessories before the fact--that is not directly linked to the terrorists but their maps apparently passed on to the 10 terrorists.

Karan Thapar:Just as you believe that you have a deniable presumption that something like this could not have happened without the involvement of official agencies in Pakistan, might not the Pakistanis believe that they too have the right to presume that some thing of this size and scale could not have happened without any local involvement in it?

P Chidambaram:So what? They can make the presumption. It still doesn't make any one responsible for any crime in Pakistan, it is still a crime in India.

Karan Thapar:But your position is that with the exception of Faheem Ansari and Sabahuddin Ahmed, we don't know any involvement of locals so far?

P Chidambaram: I can only report to you what the investigation has revealed. I have no personal knowledge of the matter. The Mumbai police, which investigates the matter, tells me and the charge sheet says this only two Indians were involved.

Karan Thapar:Moving beyond the issue of bring the accused to justice, has Pakistan done enough to actually dismantle the infrastructure of terrorism on this?

P Chidambaram: None to the best of knowledge.

Karan Thapar:Well, they claimed on January 15 that they had ended five LeT training camps, that they dismantled the wire network of the organisation and its website. Are you saying that this is not true?

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P Chidambaram: These training camps are not permanent structures. These are training camps which mushroomed in villages--we have intelligence to believe that the controllers and handlers are still active.

Karan Thapar:You are also suggesting that in fact that the people Pakistan may have detained may not be either sufficient or they may not even be the right people, because communication between handlers and perpetrators have been continuing and you still have communication coming across the border that worries you?

P Chidambaram: There are not only one or two handlers I think there are many more.

Karan Thapar: So you mean to say that the network of terror that exists in Pakistan is almost unaffected by the steps that Pakistan is taking?

P Chidambaram: Almost.

Karan Thapar: And therefore the quantum of threat that India is facing will virtually remain undiminished too?

P Chidambaram: That is right.

Karan Thapar: You have two major events coming, the General Elections and the IPL, how much threat do you face as a result of this continued undiminished terror attack?

P Chidambaram: It is quite high, but we are prepared. The level of preparedness today I think is much higher than what it was two months ago. We are on alert, and the elections will pass off peacefully. We have mobilised a large amount of security forces. Elections will take place in five phases and pass off peacefully.

People should come out and vote. That is our fundamental right, instead of saying its out fundamental duty. As far as IPL is concerned, I have no comment as of now.

Karan Thapar: I know, you have wisely restrained yourself from commenting on the IPL. I want to ask you a different question. Given that the IPL would provide easy soft targets for the terrorists to strike--large audiences, packed stadiums--do you think in such circumstances it is advisable to not go for the IPL?

P Chidambaram: Security for the IPL must be provided by the state governments. Because every IPL match takes place in one or the other city of the state.

Therefore we have asked the state governments to take a call weather they can provide the security. My obligation is to provide the intelligence that they require, which I will.

But I made it clear to all the state governments that they will not exempt from giving forces that they have promised the Election Commission. I have also made it clear that I cannot spare any central paramilitary forces.

Karan Thapar: So you are clear that elections are the first priority?

P Chidambaram: Unquestionable.

Karan Thapar: And therefore any state that can't provide security to the IPL because it has to provide it for the elections means that state can't really hold the IPL ?

P Chidambaram: It is not only security in that state. If election is taking place in a neighboring state, or just across the state border, then there could be problems.

Karan Thapar: You are torn between a dilemma, as a Home Minister it is your duty to show people that India is safe and matches can be held safely. But as an intelligent person and knowing the turmoil after what has happened in Pakistan, you may say to yourself if only the organisers could understand the situation themselves and not put pressure and back off.?

P Chidambaram: Let me make one thing clear, I have said and I will say it again. When cricket matches are held in India, they are completely safe. Every cricket player will be safe; every match will be conducted safely.

The point is because that when two schedules virtually overlap then it is difficult to give hat assurance for a time period of about 45 days. Before and after, there is no doubt in my mind that the State and Central governments can provide full proof security to cricket matches or football matches or anything else.

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Karan Thapar: Which means the organisers must read carefully and understand what you are saying: don’t let the IPL clash with the elections. And if the clash is inevitable then IPL should opt out?

P Chidambaram: I think the organisers are responsible people and patriotic Indians and I think they will take a call on it.

Karan Thapar: Which is to opt out?

P Chidambaram: They are in touch with my officers, and what is presented to me is the result of the discussion. The last time it was brought to me is the issue that schedules were not acceptable and they have to move back to the drawing board. So they have come back with the schedule and the states have not come back with the response. The states haven't come back yet.

Karan Thapar: How quickly do you think this will be resolved?.

P Chidambaram :It depends upon when the state would respond. It would take some time.