Interview: Natwar feels let down

New Delhi: Hello and welcome to this CNN-IBN special, Slippery Grounds. Twenty-four hours after (the Justice Pathak Committee report submitted its report on the Volcker panel’s allegations) the Natwar Singh episode has reached its crescendo.

What is going to happen to Natwar Singh given the fact that the Pathak panel, which was looking into the entire Volcker controversy and whether Natwar Singh and his son Jagat Singh have received kickbacks, money in the Oil for Food programme.

That was a big question which was before the Justice Pathak panel. Justice Pathak on Thursday, in a 110-page report, which was first reported here on CNN-IBN, said, yes, it is Natwar Singh and his son Jagat Singh.

There may not be any money deal associated with them, but for sure they are guilty of misconduct, of misusing their positions, the Pathak report says.

Joining me to answer all the questions that have risen from that report is Natwar Singh himself, former external affairs minister and still a member of the Congress party and MP, but someone who's facing all the heat and all the tough question.

Bhupendra Chaubey: Mr Natwar Singh, let me begin by asking you the report which was submitted yesterday. Are you now going to plead guilty or not guilty?

Natwar Singh: No, I've never been guilty.

Bhupendra Chaubey: And why is that?

Natwar Singh: Because Mr Pathak himself has said Mr Natwar Singh and his son never received any payments. And that is the crux of the matter and there is nothing else.

Bhupendra Chaubey: But he also said, you are guilty of writing letters, writing letters which were used as recommendation letters by people who are friends of your son, therefore you are guilty of misusing your position.

Natwar Singh: All I can say is that A, Mr Pathak's brief was to go into two contracts, one in my name, and one in Congress's name and in either case the trail does not lead. What his report has said about my writing letters or not is, as far as I am concerned, is baloney and meaningless.

Bhupendra Chaubey: Baloney and meaningless?

Natwar Singh: Yes, I'll tell you why. Why don't they put these letters before the nation and say what I've said. I am a politician, I write many letters of recommendation, if you come to me and say, 'Will you please give me a letter of introduction to the foreign minister of UK,' I'll give it to you.

Bhupendra Chaubey: So, let's open it. The entire country is watching this interview, why don't you tell our viewers what is written in those letters, after all those letters were written by you in AICC (All India Congress Committee) letterheads.

Natwar Singh: Those were five years ago, but I'm saying to you, the ED (Enforcement Directorate) has been leaking everything. First, they said three letters to Tariq Aziz then and then I said you put the three letters, please. The signature is mine but the language is not mine. I've not said anywhere that give my son contract, give Mr Andaleeb Sehgal a contract.

Bhupendra Chaubey: It's an important point you are making, Mr Natwar Singh; you are saying the signature were yours but the language was not yours. Are you suggesting that these three letters, which were used by Justice Pathak as evidence against you, were forged?

Natwar Singh: I'm not saying that; I told Mr Pathak that these signatures are mine but the language is not mine. Because I expect if I write three letters to the minister of Iraq, he will at least acknowledge them and say listen: ‘we've obliged you and given your friend this contract’. I write to Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz and he replies to the embassy.

Suppose I've written these letters, what's wrong with that? As a politician it's my job to promote Indian trade. Mr Ram Naik went to 60 businessmen to increase trade; the Volcker issue has names of businesses in the world. This was a legitimate programme of the United Nations. And the committee, which was looking after this was presided over by Chinmaya Gharekhan, India’s permanent secretary general.

Bhupendra Chaubey: But if all that you are saying is correct, why is that we are getting a sense that you have no friends, you have no supporters within your own party.

Natwar Singh: See, I don't want to say anything against my party; I know the atmosphere six months ago.

Bhupendra Chaubey: Aren't you feeling let down by the response of the Congress party?

Natwar Singh: Listen, I take this in my stride, at 75, hopefully.

Bhupendra Chaubey: But you are hurt, I see from your responses. Aren't you hurt, isn't there a sense of disappointment?

Natwar Singh: No, I am disappointed, but I'll not blame, that's not my character. I've strong nerves and I've taken this for the last six months. Today you are good to me; the media has totally changed its views; the country has changed its views and the politicians have changed their views. And the ground fall is, they have been treated unjustly, there is no iota of proof. Now, many, many things are there in the Volcker report which have been ignored.

Bhupendra Chaubey: We'll talk about those things which have been ignored, but the important thing is that you do feel a sense of disappointment

Natwar Singh: Not disappointed, it has been unpleasant and disagreeable. But I've not buckled down, neither has my son. We are tough people.

Bhupendra Chaubey: What are the options for these tough people. Natwar Singh and Jagat Singh facing all the heat, facing all the tough questions. Options are galore before Mr Natwar Singh.

Mr Singh, the offer made to you by Amar Singh—I know he is an old time friend of yours—are you even thinking about the offer?

Natwar Singh: No, I'm not but I'm very grateful to Amar Singhji and Mulayam Singhji that they made this offer. But I want to tell me something to other parties, which I refuse to name, I am a Congressman, I've been in the party for 22 years and 31 years in the foreign service. I've been a minister for only seven years, and I'm 75 and I'm not bothered about being a minister or my name being cleared. Pathak has cleared my name.

Bhupendra Chaubey: But you say, despite what has happened, you don't think there's a big question mark, you don't there's a cloud of suspicion which exists over your own political future in the Congress party.

Natwar Singh: Well, let them prove it. Now the report has come out, they can say that Natwar Singh has been exonerated and his son also. I'm asking through you, the Enforcement Directorate has had them (the recommendation letters) for such a long time, why don't they show them to you? Why don't they show them to Parliament? Let's see what the letters say.

Bhupendra Chaubey: What is the next step that you are planning to take—the fact that the Government has said it will table this report; they will also table the Action Taken Report. Once all these reports have been tabled in the Parliament, will it lead to more embarrassment for you? Or will it provide you with an opportunity of clearing your name, as you are suggesting.

Natwar Singh: No, no, I've no doubt that my name and my son's name has been cleared. They have tried their best, and now they talk about some Mercedes, which really shows that they are scraping the bottom of the barrel. They don't even feel embarrassed, whole India is watching this farce that you are trying to nail somebody like me.

Bhupendra Chaubey: Who is trying to nail you?

Natwar Singh: Listen to me, the Prime Minister has said, his office has not leaked the report. He sent it to the Finance Minister, Justice Pathak is saying, he has not leaked the report. The PM has sent it to the Finance minister; please ask the Finance Minister, who has leaked it.

Bhupendra Chaubey:We were talking about the existence of the so called coterie within the Congress party which is apparently trying to target you. Your son has gone on record saying that it is the Finance Minister Mr P Chidambaram who was trying to manipulate the Enforcement Directorate, trying to manipulate the investigations so that you could be targeted. What is the problem that exists between you and Mr Chidambaram.

Natwar Singh: He is much younger to me and an able Finance Minister and I will not go into personalising the whole issue. But I do want to tell you one thing, that I am very relaxed and am rather enjoying myself for the simple reason that there is a French saying which means, 'are you in good terms with yourself? Yes I am.' Why? Because I have done nothing wrong. Now, with regard to your question, the fact of the matter is that the Prime Minister received the report and he said he has sent it to the Finance Minister without opening it.

Justice Pathak has absolved me and my son and I am thankful to him for doing justice. He has said that no money was paid to Natwar Singh or his son and that is the crux, the rest is irrelevant. Now, he is saying, "No." So, then where has the report leaked from? Who is incharge of the ED? Not Manmohan Singh, not Justice Pathak, not Natwar Singh, but the Finance Minister. The Finance Minister this morning said that there is only one copy of the report, which only the Prime Minister has got. Now that the Prime Minister has called it bluff, Mr Chidambaram has to explain what he said in the morning and what the Prime Minister has said.

Bhupendra Chaubey: The other important fact is that you are saying that you are absolutely comfortable with yourself, you are at peace with yourself, what about your equation with Sonia Gandhi? What has happened to you relationship with the Gandhi family?

Natwar Singh: I will not discuss Sonia Gandhi on the television because of the special relationship that has been going on for six decades. They have done a lot of good for me.

Bhupendra Chaubey: Be candid, Mr Natwar Singh. Sonia Gandhi has let you down in this hour of crisis, would you admit that or not?

Natwar Singh: I would request you not to question me about Sonia Gandhi because I will not say anything.

Bhupendra Chaubey: Why shouldn't we say that may be it is under the instruction of the Congress President herself that Mr Chidambaram or other leaders in the Congress party have launched a campaign, which you yourself claim has been launched, against you? Why shouldn't we be looking at that?

Natwar Singh: Do not drag in Sonia Gandhi's name into it, you can ask anything else.

Bhupendra Chaubey: You are saying that your relationship with the Gandhi family, with Sonia Gandhi, with the Congress President, remains unaffected despite all that has happened in the recent times...

Natwar Singh: I have already told you that my relationship with the family goes back to 60 years. So, I will not discuss, even for one second, my relationship with her or the Gandhi family.

Bhupendra Chaubey: In these last nine months, since the Volcker controversy first broke, have you been in touch with Sonia Gandhi?

Natwar Singh: Yes, I have.

Bhupendra Chaubey: Have you ever gone to her and apprised her of what your apprehensions have been?

Natwar Singh: I will not give you any details of it. So, please go to another question.

Bhupendra Chaubey: If you are pleading 'not guilty', would you say that it is Mr Chidambaram who has a lot to explain now?

Natwar Singh: I suppose he will because I hope you will ask him the questions. I do not want to personalise this.

Bhupendra Chaubey: In the end, isn't this a personal battle? Please explain to me, why else would the Finance Minister of the country would be out to get you? Why else would he be launching this campaign of sorts to tarnish your reputation?

Natwar Singh: My image cannot be tarnished so easily. I have 53 years of public work and I haven't done too badly. He came into the picture much later than I did. I do not want to cast any personal aspersions because it is not my character. I can take care of myself and I can take care of what is happening around me and for the last nine months, I have been all by my son and myself.

Bhupendra Chaubey: Isn't it also true that in the present Congress establishment, you really do not have many supporters right now.

Natwar Singh: That is between me and the Congress party. We will resolve whatever we can, what I am trying to say is that I am not a uni-dimentional character. Politics is not the only thing in my life, I have so many other interests - I read, I write, I watch cricket and I play with my grandchildren.

Bhupendra Chaubey: Shouldn't I assume that is an escapist attitude or a defeatist attitude? Are you already accepting that your time in politics is up and therefore you are looking at enjoying the company of books and your cricket.

Natwar Singh: No, I have done this all my life. You can take a record of the last 50 years, I began writing when I was 25-years-old. I published books when I was 30-years-old, in America. I have wide interests and politics has not been the 'whole' of my life. The trouble here is that people are obsessed with this thing, they keep asking: will you become a minister? For heaven's sake, out of 75 years, I have been a minister for seven years, what do you think I have been doing?

Bhupendra Chaubey: When the Volcker controversy had first broken and when I myself had put this question to you, along with several other journalists, that would you be stepping down from the post of your Ministerial assignment, your answer was a big NO. You had said, there was no question.

Natwar Singh: I will tell you why I did it. If I had done so at the very first day, the next day, the attack would have been on Sonia Gandhi. I resigned only when the BJP said that they will not let the Parliament function. I will not give them this comfort. Ministership is of no importance, but my good name is and my good name has been vindicated and that is the most important thing.

Bhupendra Chaubey: Isn't it ironic Mr Singh that you are saying it was because of the BJP and because of the fact that you didn't want them to stall Parliamentary proceedings that you resigned. Isn't the same party now, stalling proceedings, of course asking a different question? But in some way, it is also helping you because there is a clear distinction, which has now been established between Natwar Singh and Jagat Singh as one entity and the Congress Party on the other. Do you have a problem with that? Why should the Congress party be given a clean chit when Natwar Singh hasn't been given a clean chit?

Natwar Singh: That will be decided when the report comes out. I will also speak on the report, it will come into Parliament and if certain members of the Opposition have seen it fit to speak about it in the manner that they have, why shouldn't they? They want to make use of it politically and they will. I have no axe to grind and I will speak on the debate and put across the point of view. But to say that at this stage, I had done this. I want to thank Mr Pathak for exonerating my son and me.

Bhupendra Chaubey: But you will admit that you did write those three letters? You are not denying that?

Natwar Singh: No, why should I deny? I have not written one letter, but many and I will write them again.

Bhupendra Chaubey: You have written letters which were then used by Andaleeb Sehgal as letters of recommendation or to solicit favours in Iraq. You are not denying that letter?

Natwar Singh: Why should I deny? I told Mr Pathak that the signatures are mine, but the language doesn't seem to be because it is cut and paste. Even if wrote the letters, where is the specificity that 'you give him an oil contract' or 'give him a voucher', I have not done that. I have said that he is a young man who is coming to you, please help him. And I will do it again.

Bhupendra Chaubey: But then, how is it that the oil vouchers that you got were the oil vouchers that were issued in the name of the Congress Party? Isn't there a very well-established link which emerges. Here is a man Andaleeb Sehgal, a friend of your son, who carries a letter from you, goes there and gets oil coupons which are there in the name of the Congress party. Why shouldn't we assume that he actually was a middleman who was sent by you to collect money on behalf of the Congress party?

Natwar Singh: The deal has been done by a party called Masefield, which say that they have never heard of Mr Natwar Singh and have no contact with him. I asked Mr Pathak to show me if I had signed any contract, got any voucher or receipt, got a foreign account - no. I told him, 'then, what I am I doing here?'

Bhupendra Chaubey: Are you open to the idea of another CBI enquiry, as demanded by the BJP. Why not look into the role of all the other people involved?

Natwar Singh: No, why should there be a CBI enquiry if this is a FEMA case? All that Sehgal will do is to pay a penalty. And it's been blown out of proportion for a variety of reasons. And this thing shouldn't even have been taken off the ground.

Bhupendra Chaubey: Very briefly sir, are you upset or not with the fact that that Congress party has been treated a separate entity, it has been given a clean chit, but you and your son still have some questions to answer.

Natwar Singh: They are not fundamental questions. Fundamental question is, did we get any money? No, Mr Pathak says so. Whether I wrote or not is irrelevant to the whole thing. Let me tell you, if the originals come and the programme is still going on, then I'll give them to you also.

Bhupendra Chaubey: For the final question on this programme, I seek a very pointed answer from you. What is your future in the Congress party? Are you not going to leave the Congress Party - yes or no?

Natwar Singh: No, I am not.

Bhupendra Chaubey: You are not going to leave the Congress party? Your relation with Sonia Gandhi still continue to be the same?

Natwar Singh: Please don't bring Sonia Gandhi into it. The decision on what happens in the future is between me and the Congress party. People ask me if I will become a minister, I say the decision is mine and not somebody else's.

Bhupendra Chaubey: It is an important point which is being made by Mr Natwar Singh here is that irrespective of what happens, as of now, he is not thinking in terms of leaving the Congress party at all.

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