' We said you (USA) do not transfer your problems'

India's External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee explains the current position of nuclear talks between India and US in an exclusive interview to Karan Thapar on Devil’s Advocate. The senior Congress leader also gives a ringside view of UPA's strategy for the Presidential election. Excerpts:-

Karan Thapar: After the Burns-Menon’s meeting, where does the Indo-US nuclear deal stands—that’s one of the issues that I shall explore today with External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee.

Mr Mukherjee you have already said that the Indo-US nuclear deal hasn’t hit a roadblock. But are you disappointed with the outcome of the Menon-Burns talks?

Pranab Mukherjee: This is a negotiation which is going on for quite some time. There are certain issues, which are yet to be dissolved. So there is no question of disappointment. We are engaged in negotiations.

Karan Thapar: Let’s look at some of the issues which as you say still need to be resolved and start with the question of reprocessing. Nothing in US law and nothing in the hierarchy prohibits America granting India reprocessing rights. So what explanation have they given you for their reluctance to give us these rights?

Pranab Mukherjee: Look it’s not possible for us to explain in details what is their stand. We can only explain what is our expectation and to what extent we can go. Reprocessing is absolutely necessary for us because we do not want to have a situation like the repetition of Tarapur.

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Karan Thapar: Quite right and have they explained why they are reluctant?

Pranab Mukherjee: They say that they have some problems. We said that you do not transfer your problems to us. What has been agreed in the joint statement of July 2005 and subsequently in March 2006 and what's in our commitment to Parliament - they are already aware of it - therefore within these two parameters, this 123 Agreement has to be signed.

Karan Thapar: When Mr Burn was here last week, did you point out to him that at his press conference in Hyderabad House in March 2, 2006, George Bush as good as committed himself to giving India reprocessing rights. He said and I quite, “I don’t see how you can advocate nuclear power without advocating technological development of reprocessing.

Pranab Mukherjee: That’s why I am saying that it is for them to decide and to argue and carry on conviction to their people if they have any difficulty. What we required we made it quite clear to them.

Karan Thapar: America has granted reprocessing rights to three countries. It has given it in the past—to Switzerland, Japan and to Euratom. Would India be satisfied with reprocessing rights on the same terms and conditions?

Pranab Mukherjee: First of all we will be satisfied only, we will have to examine it in the context of our commitment to the Indian Parliament in the joint statement of July 2005 and the separation plan of 2006.

Karan Thapar: People say that there are two steps that India could consider taking, Which these three countries, which I have just named, have already taken, which would encourage America. They say that were you to identify the reprocessing plant where the reprocessing would happen, and were you to be more amenable and acceptable to fallback safeguards, this would encourage America. Are you prepared to take these steps?

Pranab Mukherjee: Look, there are certain issues, which we shall have to keep in mind. For instance, India is a non-signatory to NPT. The other countries which you have referred to all of them are signatories to NPT. Therefore this arrangement will have to be India-specific.

Karan Thapar: So, just because these three countries have taken certain steps, India cant necessarily follow the same way.

Pranab Mukherjee: India can follow what has been stated, as I mentioned in those two statements, and what is our commitment to the Indian Parliament.

Karan Thapar: Another way in fact the reprocessing rights could be granted to India is when America were to adopt what it did with China. In the case of 123 Agreement with China, America has committed itself to expeditiously and favourable considering any Chinese request for reprocessing within a limited time frame of just six months and if no decision is possible in that six months period then China automatically gets an interim right to reprocess. Would that be acceptable?

Pranab Mukherjee: I’m sorry Karan but you are making comparison between the incomparables. China is already a declared nuclear weapon state. I have already stated that it will have to be India-specific in the context as India is a non-signatory to NPT.

Karan Thapar: If none of the earlier examples or precedence are applicable to us as you pointed out, doesn’t that make you the granting of reprocessing even more difficult?

Pranab Mukherjee: I don’t think it will be more difficult. We will be able to find some way out. Though the negotiations have protracted, but in a complicated negotiation like this sometimes it happens. Both countries are trying their best. I don’t doubt their sincerity. Similarly we would also like to have it. Because the process began from July 2005 when Prime Minister visited.

Karan Thapar: Do you think that if both countries try their best, the outcome will be satisfactory to India, or is there a danger that the best may not be good enough.

Pranab Mukherjee: No that’s your value judgment. I’m not entering into any value judgment at this juncture. Let me first reach the breach and then I will think what to do next.

Karan Thapar: Very interesting. You are not wanting to express confidence. But you are leaving open the possibility that on reprocessing you might not get what would be satisfactory for India.

Pranab Mukherjee: No, I am saying that what will satisfy me—those parameters are in the knowledge of public domain. If it meets my requirements in the context of those documents, I will be satisfied.

Karan Thapar: A second sticking point according to the press is the issue of what America calls ‘right to return’. On that question of right to return, is India looking for an exemption from that law or is India looking for a way to cushioning the impact of the law so that it doesn’t have a deleterious, hurtful or harmful impact on India’s position. Which is that you are looking for?

Pranab Mukherjee: No. We would not like to have any impact on our indigenous nuclear programme. And also we would not like to affect our strategic programme to maintain the reserves for our strategic programme.

Karan Thapar: Very specifically on this question of right to return, I imagine your prime interest is to ensure that any strategic reserves of fuel which you build up are not covered by the right to return. But can America exempt India’s strategic reserves without making a mockery of its own law of right of return?

Pranab Mukherjee: What would be India specific? Otherwise where does the question comes about India-specific? It is known to everybody that India is not a signatory to NPT. India has its strategic programmes.

Karan Thapar: And therefore you are saying that anything that is India specific must take into consideration the fact that we have certain demands that are different to other counties and they must be met and catered.

Pranab Mukherjee: Exactly, because we would like to continue our existing position in respect of the other things.

Karan Thapar: How confident are you that at the end of this whole series of negotiations, you will have a satisfactory 123 which India can accept and sign?

Pranab Mukherjee: Unless it meets our requirement, it will be difficult for us to accept any proposition.

Karan Thapar: Are you optimistic or pessimistic about it?

Pranab Mukherjee: I am hopeful. The way you want to interpret…I’m hopeful that everything will fall in line.

Karan Thapar: But hopeful is not a very positive word. It’s a very neutral word.

Pranab Mukherjee: I do not know whether it is a positive word. I’m not a great linguist. So let’s leave it to the linguists.

Karan Thapar: If for some reason, after two years of negotiating, the Indo-US nuclear deal falls through, how much of a setback will it be to Indo-US relations?

Pranab Mukherjee: No, I do not think it will have any adverse impact on Indo-US relationship because the relationship is growing. These developments have taken place from the July 2005. It is an important landmark in our bilateral relationships no doubt but we do hope as I mentioned that we will be able to reach the successful conclusion of the present series of negotiations. Therefore I am not looking at that at all.

Karan Thapar: But you are also saying that if you don’t reach to a hopeful or a satisfactory conclusion it won’t have a major impact on the relationship.

Pranab Mukherjee: It should not have.

Karan Thapar: ‘It should not have’. ‘Should not’ means also hopefully it won’t have.

Pranab Mukherjee: Again you are just trying to twist the words. What is the fun in it?

Karan Thapar: Let’s come to your relationship with your Left allies. Three of the four Left parties have indicated that they either want to review or perhaps even reconsider support to the UPA Government and A B Bardhan of the CPI has gone on record to stay that he will strenuously push for this when the Left parties meet after the presidential election. So how long can you continue to rely on their support?

Pranab Mukherjee: As long as we enjoy their support it will continue.

Karan Thapar: But how long will it continue?

Pranab Mukherjee: It will continue till the end of the term.

Karan Thapar: Well that’s what you say but you see at the moment the only reason why the three parties, the CPI, the RSP and Forward Bloc are not withdrawing support is because the CP-M is putting pressure on them. But now the CP-M itself is wavering. Let me quote to you how the CP-M last week assessed three years of your Government. They say ‘The UPA was formed primarily to keep communal forces away from state power. However, UPA policies are benefiting the very same communal combine. And then they add unless this situation is immediately corrected the very raison d’etre of the UPA comes under a question mark.’ Clearly, even for the CP-M, the clock is ticking against you.

Pranab Mukherjee: I am not worried over this. These are there various political parties make assessment of the current situations and sometimes they criticise the economic policies sometimes they criticise the failure of the Government to contain the communal forces and that is the reason why they are outside the Government.

Karan Thapar: Are you saying that these criticisms are just hot air and nothing more?

Pranab Mukherjee: I am just saying that it is their assessment. But as long as they continue to support the Government, it will go on.

Karan Thapar: But the question is how long because you see it’s not just the UPA…

Pranab Mukherjee: I have given you the answer that till the end of the term of this Government.

Karan Thapar: But I am asking you on what basis you can sound so confident because its not just the UPA, they are criticizing the Prime Minister?

Pranab Mukherjee: Because I am dealing with them everyday. That's why I am confident and therefore even why they are talking of the Presidential election because they know that in the Presidential election they will have to oppose the NDA supported or NDA candidate.

Karan Thapar: But I am talking about what happen afterwards. Bardhan has gone on record to say, ‘This time I mean it, it’s not just a threat.’ Manoj Bhattacharjee of the RSP says, ‘It’s time we think for an alternative’.

Pranab Mukherjee: I think you leave that worry to me, not to you or your viewers. Let me manage that that is my job. Don’t take my job and just create panic amongst your viewers.

Karan Thapar: So you are supremely confident that despite the reiterate there is no danger of Left withdrawing the support.

Pranab Mukherjee: Let’s leave these superlative kind of adjectives. I am quite confident that the UPA Government will continue with the support of the Left till the end of the term.

Karan Thapar: What about the UPA-Left coordination committee? It hasn’t met since October, almost eight or nine months have passed and A B Bardhan has gone on record to question whether it is functioning. He says one reason why he doesn’t even want to attend the meetings because he doesn’t want to hear Chidambaram lecturing.

Pranab Mukherjee: No UPA coordination committee met several times as and when it is needed.

Karan Thapar: Not since October or November.

Pranab Mukherjee: I don’t think whether it has met after October or not but I think during the Budget sessions, after October there had been two sessions, and we met there are two types of coordination. One coordination meeting is taken by me. When the Parliament is in session it meets almost every week.

Karan Thapar: So you are saying system is working? Bardhan says it is not working, he has gone on record saying so.

Pranab Mukherjee: That is alright. You keep your records and you be satisfied with your records. But so far I am concerned as the leader of the Lok Sabha I am quite happy and satisfied with the coordination with the Left.

Karan Thapar: But this is one-sided satisfaction. You are satisfied, Bardhan is not satisfied, Abani Roy is not satisfied Manoj Bhattacharjee is not satisfied. What sort of satisfaction is this?

Pranab Mukherjee: That is my problem, not yours. I have no problem because with that I am carrying on the Government and the legislative business in the House.

Karan Thapar: But don’t you see the message you are sending out to the audience that you don’t care about Left criticism, their sensitivities. If you are satisfied, that’s good enough?

Pranab Mukherjee: No. I deal with them everyday but I don’t go by what they say to the media.

Karan Thapar: Are they two-faced? Are they saying different things to the media and different things to you?

Pranab Mukherjee: No, not at all. But when the issues come up, they give a general impression, analysing the situation. But when the individual issues on which their consent their affirmation is needed that is for me to decide and we get that.

Karan Thapar: Two very quick critical question: if at the end you achieve a satisfactory 123 agreement with the US on the Indo-US nuclear deal, can you get the Left to support it? Because on that issue, even Prakash Karat and the CP-M have publicly said that they don’t even want to negotiate the 123.

Pranab Mukherjee: That is totally a hypothetical question you have started by saying ‘if’.

Karan Thapar: Yes, but politics is hypothesis most of the time. What’s wrong with it?

Pranab Mukherjee: No, politics is not hypothetical. Therefore, this question does not arise at all. I’m not going to answer it because you are trying to bring it up cleverly.

Karan Thapar: I’m trying to bring up a danger on the road with your Left allies.

Pranab Mukherjee: This is not a danger on the road. In the spate of the foreign policy, they have a particular view and it is not unknown to us.

Karan Thapar: Can I quote to you an English phrase? They say ‘There is none so blind who willfully will not see’.

Pranab Mukherjee: I am not aware of the phrase. So I plead my ignorance. If you want to know something more, please ask me.

Karan Thapar: Let us come to the presidential elections. How confident are you that the UPA President whoever he or she might be can win if the opponent is Bhairon Singh Shekhawat?

Pranab Mukherjee: Arithmetic is clearly in favour of UPA and it's supporters.

Karan Thapar: So UPA will win?

Pranab Mukherjee: Of course.

Karan Thapar: Shekhawat does not worry you?

Pranab Mukherjee: As I told you, I go by arithmetic and facts not by psychology.

Karan Thapar: What about Mr Shekhawat's capacity to win support from all different parties, which he showed as Vice President - he could eat into your support.

Pranab Mukherjee: Taste of pudding is in the eating. We are going to face the elections if he wants to contest. And if he contests the results will be known.

Karan Thapar: In other words you will wait till the last moment to see whether he defeats you or not?

Pranab Mukherjee: No I am not going to discover anything because the arithmetic is clearly in the favour of the UPA and its supporters.

Karan Thapar: Has Mayawati assured the UPA that she will support your candidate, or does it depend upon who the candidate is?

Pranab Mukherjee: I am not going to disclose these things before the election thing is over.

Karan Thapar: But are you not disclosing it because she has not yet given the assurance?

Pranab Mukherjee: What transpires between political leaders, unless it is publicly announced, there is no reason to disclose it in a television interview with you.

Karan Thapar: Sitaram Yechury has said that if the UPA fails to get it’s candidate elected in the presidential elections, the UPA will lose its moral authority to continue in Government.

Pranab Mukherjee: I am not thinking of losing at all. It is also a very hypothetical question. If we lose at all then the question will come.

Karan Thapar: Not till then?

Pranab Mukherjee: Not till then.

Karan Thapar: I promised you at the beginning of the interview that I wouldn't bring up the question of your candidature, I am not going to break that promise, but since all the papers say that are vital to this Government, and that without you this Government would not be able to survive, don't you think that it is fitting and fair that you be made Deputy PM?

Pranab Mukherjee: These all things are totally irrelevant because who will be made Deputy PM or who will be made ministers of which ministry totally depends on the political establishment that runs the Government - that is the Prime Minister, and the President of the ruling party. No individual other than these two are concerned here.

Karan Thapar: That’s a very clear answer. Those who understand politics will understand. It was a pleasure speaking talking to you.

Pranab Mukherjee: Thank You.

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