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Should the Maharashtra government be dismissed and do Maharashtrians have a raw deal in their own capital? Those are the two issues Karan Thapar raised with the senior-most leader of the Nationalist Congress Party (NCP) and Civil Aviation Minister Praful Patel on CNN-IBN show Devil's Advocate.

Karan Thapar: Two of your most senior leaders (in the UPA) have demanded dismissal of your government in Maharashtra. What’s your answer to Ram Vilas Paswan and Amar Singh?

Praful Patel: I don’t think dismissal of any government is that easy.

Karan Thapar: Is it warranted in the present circumstances?

Praful Patel: Of course not. I don’t see any reason to dismiss the government in Maharashtra.

Karan Thapar: So your allies are playing politics with you?

Praful Patel: It’s an emotive issue which they are facing, after all it concerns people from their state. In a democratic set up and the kind of polity we are seeing today, all these things happen every day.

Karan Thapar: So you’re saying Ram Vilas Paswan and Amar Singh don’t know what they are calling for?

Praful Patel: No, I’m not dismissing their concerns. I’m saying they have a valid reason to raise this issue.

Karan Thapar: What about the demand to at least change the Chief Minister. Your own CM’s Cabinet colleagues, such as Pratap Rane, are today publicly disenchanting his performance. Why don’t you change the CM then?

Praful Patel: Why should the CM or anybody else be changed? People who live in Mumbai are the only ones who know the situation on the ground. The entire issue is very sad and unfortunate. It should not be allowed to happen but at the same time saying that changing the CM is a valid solution—

Karan Thapar: For five days since Diwali, the CM as well Deputy CM have been out of Mumbai. They haven’t even been in the Capital. There’s a sense of fear and crisis, and they don’t see it as their moral responsibility to be in the seat of government to reassure people?

Praful Patel: I do not agree with you Karan. The fact is that they are in control of the situation. They don’t necessarily have to be on the streets of Mumbai. There’s a system, a police department, people in the government who are monitoring the situation through the clock. Why should this kind of a situation come up?

Karan Thapar: The Cabinet in Delhi is demanding from the PM to put pressure on Maharashtra government to at least agree to a magisterial enquiry. You, for the PM’s sake, accept the need for a magisterial enquiry?

Praful Patel: I am not in the Maharashtra government to answer every single question. The fact is that it’s within his moral authority of the PM, as the custodian of the entire nature, to ask the Maharashtra government about these issues.

Karan Thapar: What about the need for an enquiry to reassure the people that the police have not acted wrongly?

Praful Patel: Just look at the entire thing in sequence. Mr Raj Thackeray has been arrested in connection with particular cases. Eighty-eight cases in all are registered against him. He has gotten bail from the court. This is natural justice, which is available to each and every citizen of India.

The gentleman who was shot dead by the Mumbai police in an encounter in that bus was holding many innocent people hostage and it’s all on television camera.

Karan Thapar: There is a sense of anger in UP and Bihar. People are demanding an enquiry to clear the air. If you are convinced that your police have acted properly, hold the enquiry and exonerate them. Why deny that demand? Is the government open to the possibility of a magisterial enquiry?

Praful Patel: Maybe. I’m sure the government would have an open mind about all these issues. Since the entire process is being followed within the framework of the law, why should we suddenly jump to magisterial enquiries?

Karan Thapar: I’ll tell you why. Actually the problem is continuing. It didn’t stop with one man shot on a bus. One man is lynched on a train; shopkeepers are beaten up; and UP journalists are beaten up outside a police station with the police watching as mute spectators. Surely these are good grants for taking action.

Praful Patel: We are not saying that the doors for a magisterial enquiry are closed, but the fact is what are we asking the enquiry for?

Karan Thapar: An enquiry into the ‘encounter’ of Rahul Raj, so as to exonerate the police and to assure the public the police acted properly, and that it wasn’t a murder. It’s in your interest.

Praful Patel: I should be quite open to that and I do not personally think I would have anything against this enquiry, but I do not know the circumstances. There is a police force which has acted in a particular situation. The world over, there have been instances where people have been shot.

Karan Thapar: But you, speaking as one of NCP leaders, have no objection to an enquiry?

Praful Patel: I have no objection for the simple reason that if this is the only way the people are going to be convinced then so be it. But I don’t want to hold a brief for the Government of Maharashtra.

Karan Thapar: Tuesday is Chhat Puja,. There’s still a sense of tension. What’s the guarantee that Chhat Puja won’t be an occasion for violence between Maharashtrians and non-Maharashtrians?

Praful Patel: I myself spoke to the Commissioner of Police in Mumbai and DG Police in Maharashtra to understand as to what kind of preparation they have. They said we are in control of the situation. Maybe they cannot protect each and every home, house and person but the fact is that in the general law and order situation there is nothing lacking.

Karan Thapar: And yet the fact is that in this situation, with the potential for danger just three days away, the CM and the Deputy CM are not in the capital? Shouldn’t they be there?

Praful Patel: Let us not jump to conclusion about being physically present in Mumbai or not. Are they in control of the government or not? That’s more important and the answer is yes.

Karan Thapar: But in absentia at the moment…

Praful Patel: That’s not the question. The last three-four days, there have been holidays in the state and that does not mean that they are not in control of the situation.

Karan Thapar: Many people say that Raj Thackeray is a protégé of Cong-NCP. He is being promoted by them as your attempt to undercut BJP and Shiv Sena. In other words, you’re being Bhindranwale.

Praful Patel: I tell you I can only laugh at this kind of an insinuation. Under these circumstances, everybody is going to infer one motive or the other but the fact is that there is no such question. We do not consider such elements any different from the other. We do not take advantage politically or otherwise.

Karan Thapar: You laugh at the allegation but how do you account for the fact that a man who has a gag order till December 20 is suddenly permitted by the police to hold a press conference, where he not only threatens migrants who can’t speak Marathi, but also presents himself to the whole world as the defender of the Marathi manus.

Praful Patel: Let’s not talk of the political part of it because it’s easy for people to cast aspersion in a situation such as this. Let’s not get into that small argument. My point is this is an emotive issue across the country. These things are happening because economically we have not been able to do enough for the country. That is an issue where everybody, all well-meaning people, all political parties, who are accusing each other, should try to focus their energy on.

Karan Thapar: People say this is happening because your government is weak. They should have handled Raj Thackeray toughly instead they’ve handled him weakly. For example, you charged him with 88 cases —all under the IPC, which ensures that he gets a bail within 24 hours. Why have you not charged him under the National Security Act?

Praful Patel: Do you not understand that you reach that level only when you’ve exhausted all avenues available to you?

Karan Thapar: If you have 88 cases against him, surely you’ve reached that level.

Praful Patel: How many people have been arrested under the NSA so far? Please can you tell me? Does anybody have an answer? It’s very easy to talk about all these kind of things. Detaining him under NSA would mean he should not have any recourse to natural justice. Does that mean he shouldn’t be able to go the court of law for recourse?

Karan Thapar: What the law does is not in your hands but it is within your power to act toughly. But you’re not. Don’t make the law your excuse.

Praful Patel: There are 88 cases, what more can you do?

Karan Thapar: Cases where he can get bail within 24 hours.

Praful Patel: There has to be something on paper which has to be proven. How many thousands of MNS workers have been arrested in the last month? How many of them have been arrested under the various provisions of the law? Does anybody ever look at it or not?

Karan Thapar: People say Maharashtra government is not just weak, it’s buckling under the influence of Raj Thackeray. On Friday, when you gave him permission to address a press conference, the message that you sent out was Maharashtra government can’t ensure Chhat Puja unless Raj Thackeray gives a message to the country. Suddenly the state administration on TV appeared subordinate to the MNS. That’s the level to which you’ve made yourself second to him.

Praful Patel: I don’t agree with this at all. Passions have been ignited to such an extent and it’s become so emotive, that anything is being attributed to it. The fact is that the state also has to take everybody along with it. You just cannot be partisan. Maharashtra government cannot just speak for or against any one section.

Karan Thapar: But the problem is that it’s not the Maharashtra government. Your party leaders today are making statements which are sympathetic of Raj Thackeray. Let me quote Chhagan Bhujbal. He says, “We should ensure that the interest of the sons of the soil is protected at any cost. “

Praful Patel: What is wrong with that?

Karan Thapar: To say it a time when Raj Thackeray is practically terrorising people on the streets is to identify with him. This was the wrong time to make this statement. Rather than oppose Thackeray, Chhagan Bhujbal is finding ways of agreeing with Thackeray.

Praful Patel: I can only tell you one thing, until and unless you solve the economic issues of this country, things like Raj Thackeray, Nandigram and Singur and Kandhamal and lot of other things would keep happening. All political parties should work towards finding those solutions. Until then, these emotive issues can be stoked by anybody.

Karan Thapar: Is this your explanation or your excuse for Raj Thackeray?

Praful Patel: No, no this is not an excuse for Raj Thackeray…

Karan Thapar: He’s a law and order problem. Why are you making it an ideological or an economic one?

Praful Patel: You were the one who talked about Chhagan Bhujbal saying something about the sons of the soil.

Karan Thapar: I said it because he was actually trying to identify with Raj Thackeray.

Praful Patel: I represent a constituency. If I don’t speak for my constituency and its people then who is going to speak for them?

Karan Thapar: Let me ask you a blunt question. Do Maharashtrians get a raw deal in their capital Mumbai?

Praful Patel: Well in a way I would agree. Some of the sentiments voiced by our own people—when you talk of Chhagan Bhujbal or Narayan Rane—the fact is yes. After all, do we need not look after their own people? Do we need not give them some better position in life?

Karan Thapar: It is often heard in Mumbai that people consider outsiders come and take jobs that should be going to Maharashtrians. Do you believe outsiders are taking over jobs that should be going to Maharashtrians?

Praful Patel: No, I don’t entirely agree with the views that are being voiced and definitely not with what Mr Raj Thackeray is saying and the way he is talking about it. The fact is that if we do not give protection in some way or the other—I am not talking about Maharashtra; it could happen tomorrow in Hyderabad; it could happen tomorrow in; it has happened in many other states of the country in the past.

Karan Thapar: Let me put in Chhagan Bhujbal’s words: should sons of the soil and their interests be protected at all costs in Maharashtra?

Praful Patel: Why Maharashtra? When I go back to Gondia or Bhandara, people ask me a factory is coming up here will our boys in the district get jobs or not and I say people will get jobs were they are best suited. I don’t think it rings the chord

Karan Thapar: So there should be preference to local Maharashtrians over people from outside?

Praful Patel: A right balance has to be stuck—there has to be. What was Mamata’s (Trinamool Congress leader Mamata Banerjee) issue in Singur? She was talking about land and compensation to farmers but ultimately there was something emotive about the connect or the disconnect which was taking place in our society.

Karan Thapar: What about a second issue that comes up a lot in Mumbai? People say that as Maharashtrians walk around the capital they are irritated when they don’t see signboards in Marathi and one language they don’t hear is Marathi? Is that a sentiment in a sense you concur with?

Praful Patel: I do concur. The simple reason is where you live why do you not at least identify with that local culture and language. What is wrong with that? You go to Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Bengal—everywhere people speak their language. Everywhere the medium of communication is the local language, why should it be any different in Maharashtra.

Karan Thapar: So when migrants come to Maharashtra, say from UP or Bihar or any other state, is knowing Marathi or learning to speak Marathi essential for them?

Praful Patel: No, I do not say that. I do not say that and I do not agree with at all. All I am trying to say is that if somebody says that if you don’t communicate with us in Marathi and I will use force for that then that is wrong. But the fact is that if you try and learn and imbibe the local culture then what is wrong.

Karan Thapar: Aren’t you suggesting that there is a moral onus on migrants who come to Maharashtra to learn the language of the state?

Praful Patel: I am not saying learn the language (but) respect the language and respect the sentiments and culture of the state.

Karan Thapar: Do you think there should be a redrawing of the balance between Maharashtrians and non-Maharashtrians in Mumbai?

Praful Patel: If you don’t do that sooner or later, you won’t need a Raj Thackeray to do that the people themselves will do it. I would rather say that everywhere in the country people must try to be more accommodating. If they don’t the situation is really going to get bad and I don’t wish that to happen only in Mumbai. I wish that not to happen in anywhere in the country.

Karan Thapar: You are saying that there should be a redrawing of balance between Maharashtrians and non-Maharashtrians. At what point does a man who comes from outside becomes a Maharashtrian? For instance, if your father or grandfather were born in UP but you yourself were born in Mumbai, are you a Maharashtrian or an outsider?

Praful Patel: My family came to (Maharashtra) about 90-100 years ago.

Karan Thapar: How long do you need to live in Maharashtra to be become a Maharashtrian?

Praful Patel: No, that is not the issue. I really look at imbibing Maharashtra and Maharashtrian culture as more important rather than just saying I have lived X number of years in Mumbai or Maharashtra and therefore I become a Maharashtrian.

Karan Thapar: Does Mumbai have an identity crisis? It is the capital of Maharashtra but increasingly it is also a non-Maharashtrian city? Is there a divide between Mumbai and its culture and the Maharashtrian people, who find a disconnect between themselves and their capital?

Praful Patel: Look at the way things have moved in the last 40-50 years in Mumbai. Mumbai was predominantly Maharashtrian; the backbone, working class was Maharashtrian. People came from outside—everybody was welcome—and today the situation is that Maharashtrians in Mumbai account for probably not 30-35 per cent of the total population.

Karan Thapar: Essential point you are making is that Mumbai once again must look and feel and be like a Maharashtrian city?

Praful Patel: No, I am not saying that it should look like and feel like (a Maharashtrian city) but at least the Maharashtrian ethos must be visible somewhere in Mumbai. What is wrong with that?

Karan Thapar: And that is in the language, that is in the signboards and that is in respect for Maharashtrian culture?

Praful Patel: Signboards and all come because people who have no other work just try to emote passions. The ethos is important. I am not for those signboards. I am not for Raj Thackeray and his lumpen elements just trying to bring in signboards.

Karan Thapar: But what are you saying is that Mumbai must have a Maharashtrian ethos?

Praful Patel: Yes and that is lacking unfortunately in the last few years.

Karan Thapar: Praful Patel, a pleasure talking to you.

Praful Patel: Thank you.

More on: Praful Patel, Mahasashtrians, North Indians, Raj Thackeray, MNS, Devil's Advocate, CNN-IBN Interviews