Interview: Moily says Alva her own enemy

Karan Thapar: Has the Congress party handled the Margaret Alva issue effectively or has it raised disturbing questions and perhaps even embarrassed itself? That's the key issue I shall explore today with the General Secretary of the Congress party Veerappa Moily. Mr Moily, has the Congress party acted judiciously in stripping Margaret Alva of her general secretary-ship and removing her from the CWC and the CEC or would you accept it that you have been unfair and unduly harsh?

Veerappa Moily: You know, it is a most unfortunate incident, we are not happy that she had to go. But it was kind of inevitable, particularly after the kind of statement she has given, which has breached the discipline of the party.

Karan Thapar: So you are saying to me that you have acted fairly?

Veerappa Moily: Yes, very fairly.

Karan Thapar: And you have not been harsh?

Veerappa Moily: No, never.

Karan Thapar: Let me tell you why I am questioning you. Your party first described this as an emotional outburst. Mani Shankar Aiyar has frequently had emotional outbursts where he has criticised the government's economic policy, where he has questioned the decision to hold Commonwealth Games in India. He has embarrassed the government so many times but no one has disciplined him. Pratap Rane in Mumbai has emotional outbursts every second day. He actually criticises the Prime Minister. No one questions him or disciplines him. Why single out Margaret Alva?

Veerappa Moily: You know, here the matter is more serious than that. It is actually the issue of questioning the issue of morality of the Congress party and very important colleagues of ours. You know, alleging the cash for seats is not a small issue.

Karan Thapar: Alright, you are saying that she brought up a moral issue, and also that she questioned the integrity of her colleagues. Now let me give you another example. In April, during the Karnataka elections when his grandson was denied a ticket, Jaffer Shareif publicly and repeatedly accused the Congress party of double standards. And he pointed his finger straight at Mrs Sonia Gandhi, the president of the Congress party. Not only did you not 'discipline' him, Sonia Gandhi even called him to Delhi and spent an whole hour appeasing him.

Veerappa Moily: Yeah, this is something more than that. Here is a case where she has made very specific allegations at her own colleagues and at the functioning of the Congress party itself.

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Karan Thapar: But Jaffer Shareif raised questions about Sonia Gandhi herself. He pointed fingers at the fact that Sonia's son has got a ticket but his grandson hadn't. He couldn't have made worse allegations. Sonia called him pesronally to appease him!

Veerappa Moily: There is absolutely no discrimination, first of all.

Karan Thapar: Interesting that you should say that even before I accuse you. Clearly, it's playing on your mind.

Veerappa Moily: Yeah! The matter is different from all others. At least where Shareif is concerned, he had come here to Delhi, discussed with the Congress president and after that he did not have any issues.

Karan Thapar: Let me tell you how far Jaffer Shareif went. He used to attend rallies hosted by Mayawati, he gave interviews The Deccan Chronicle where he said, "I am close to the ideology of the BSP. I have a comfort level with the NSP, NCP whose leader Sharad Pawar has offered me president-ship of the party." Despite that you have retained him on the manifesto committee, you have kept him as a member of the election management and coordination committee. You did not remove him from a permanent invitee-ship of the CWC.

Veerappa Moily:I do not think that he has breached that kind of discipline as Margaret Alva. The degree was totally different. He immediately reconciled to the party and its selection process and got down to work.

Karan Thapar: Except that, he accused Sonia Gandhi the president of the party personally of favouring her own son and giving him a ticket while his grandson had been denied. You know it cannot get worse than that. At least Margaret Alva never mentioned Sonia Gandhi!

Veerappa Moily: It is not as though the Congress president has personally taken it up. She has taken it up as a party issue. If a leader sitting in the highest post and sitting in a seat and having been a member of the Congress Election Committee apex body and CWC member meeting Congress president everyday practically, it is not acceptable. Every fifteen days we have the meeting of general secretaries in charge of the various states and the Congress president takes these up.

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Karan Thapar: Can I interrupt? You know, what the people are saying? They are saying that the real reason why Margaret Alva was removed so quickly is because the coterie around Sonia Gandhi suddenly realised that this was an opportunity to get her out of the way. It was her enemies who went for her and not anything that she herself did.

Veerappa Moily: She was an enemy for herself. I do not think she needed any outside enemies for an issue like this.

Karan Thapar: Alright! Margaret Alva has been removed from general secretary-ship. She is out of the CWC, she is out of the CEC. But you know and I know a lot of people have endorsed the allegations she raised. Why have you, as a party refused to look into those allegations?

Veerappa Moily: I don't know. I will recall to your memory that immediately after Karnataka elections there was a committee appointed under the chairmanship of A K Antony to go into the reasons of the defeat in Karnataka and also into the earlier defeats. The committee went into the matter came up with a two-road map. One road map was about how to make the selection of candidate more transparent and how it should be done timely and many things have come out. If she had a grievance, she could have complained to the committee. She had the forum available.

Karan Thapar: Maybe she chose the wrong forum. I concede that. Maybe she was late in raising that grievance. I concede that as well. But the fact that the grievance has been endorsed by a range of people, not one or two but 15 or 20 suggests that many people share her thinking. Don't you think that as an open and transparent democratic party, you should enquire into the allegations? Why are you refusing to do that?

Veerappa Moily: Where is the question? When all these matters have been gone into by the A K Antony committee.

Karan Thapar: That is really not sufficient.

Veerappa Moily: There is no issue. Where is the need or question of examining?

Karan Thapar: Look at the range of people who have endorsed the issue raised by Margaret Alva. Yogendra Makwana and Pasram Madherna from Rajasthan, from Karnataka - your own state - Siddharamaiah, R L Jalappa, Shiva Murthy Nayak. From Bihar Khurshid Alam, he has even resigned. And then from Andhra P Shiv Shankar. Mrs Alva has struck a nationwide chord and yet your party is trying to be deaf to these concerns. Why?

Veerappa Moily: Do you know the history of all these people? Siddharamaiah yes, reacted first but he has not repeated what he has said.

Karan Thapar: Because he did not want to be thrown out of the party as Margaret Alva was.

Veerappa Moily: He immediately retracted. He said, no no, I never meant that.

Karan Thapar: Makwana hasn't, Jalappa hasn't retracted, Khurshid Alam hasn't retracted. Madherna hasn't retracted, Shiva Murthy hasn't retracted.

Veerappa Moily: Let me tell you, Shiva Murthy Nayak, in and out has always been outside the party. I know that because he was my minister. We had to sack him because of his misbehaviour and indiscipline.

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Karan Thapar: You know what your saying? Everyone who has expressed dissent has something wrong with him which is why you do not want to listen to him. Isn't that a little too convenient?

Veerappa Moily: You must also know the history. Mr Jalappa, you know his son was given a ticket in the last Karnataka elections. He resigned from the Congress party and joined the BJP. You must know the history also. They do it because they have their own agendas. They think that it suits them.

Karan Thapar: You think that they have their own agenda, which is why you are not taking them seriously. Let me give you the example of Yogendra Makwana. He has not only named constituencies, not only named individuals, he has actually specified the amount of money for which tickets were sold. Now what have you done? You have thrown him out of his post. But you have not enquired into the allegations? The issue he has raised is important. Surely you need to, as a democratic party, investigate.

Veerappa Moily: You must not mistake Yogendra Makwana. He could have caused a major embarrassment to the Congress party. You know he made the SC president of Rajasthan to float a party at his instance and called it the Rashtriya Bahujan Congress and put up candidates. You must know the credibility of persons who raised the questions and know that they are already one foot away from the party.

Karan Thapar: Mr Moily, think for a moment what Rahul Gandhi says everyday to the country. He wants open politics, open democracy, he wants transparency, he wants cleanness. Here are senior people in your party raising issues integrity and what are you saying?m under the carpet, you refuse to investigate them, you refuse to enquire into them. You are counter minding everything that Rahul Gandhi is trying to do.

Veerappa Moily: No, no! Let us go into the matter. Let me tell you what is the procedure of selection. There is the ECC, the fence of the panel. Then the Pradesh Election Committee, matter will come up to the screening committee. After this it goes to the CEC. I must tell you that even in one or two cases where there are differences of opinion, between CEC members or the screening committee members or the local leaders, it has taken hours and hours together. Do you think you need, matters to get more transparent than this? As the chairman of the Madhya Pradesh Election Committee, I must have spent at least 20 days when we never slept up to 4 am.

Karan Thapar: I have deliberately let you speak for so long because it was fair that you should be able to put your side of the story. Do you know what the outcome is? According to the papers like The Hindu, the outcome is that 23 Congress relatives have got the tickets. If you look at The Hindustan Times, the figure is 25 and if you look at The Indian Express, it is 30. What do these figures suggest? It suggests that Rahul Gandhi's complaint of friends and relatives intervening into the Congress party and therefore must be kept out is either not being listened to by the Congress party or that he does not mean it when he says it. The man you are embarrassing is the general secretary of your own party, Rahul Gandhi. He is the one who suddenly looks like these issues do not matter.

Veerappa Moily: No, I think that's not correct. I must tell you that right from independence or since we started participating in the election process, we have never put a total ban on the kith and kin of the politicians.

Karan Thapar: You did in Karnataka. Not a single kith and kin has got it, Mrs Alva has said it personally.

Veerappa Moily: No, no. The son of Mr Jalappa got a seat. First he worked in the constituency. First they work in the constituency, nurture the constituency. They have made a name in the public work. They are considered only then.

Karan Thapar: Rahul Gandhi speaking in Ramnagar on October 20 says this with a sense of shame, "you can enter the political system either with the help of family, friends or money. Without these you cannot enter the system. This is a problem. I am a symptom of this problem. I want to change it". Is Congress changing it? No! It is handing out tickets to relatives. You are defending the situation and when accusations are made you do not even enquire!

Veerappa Moily: Yes, if a son has made a name for himself, if they have worked their way up, yes! Just because some one is a kith or kin it is never given. I am an example of that. Even when entering the assembly I had no money, I had no relatives. But still I rose to the position of a chief minister in Karnataka.

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Karan Thapar: You are an exception. I grant you that. Are you telling me that there are 30 sons, kith and kin as the Indian Express claims, in the election fray in Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh and Chhattisgarh who have made a name for themselves? No! You know it and I know it.

Veerappa Moily:I am sorry! You cannot round off the children. You must get into the credibility of each and every candidate, whether they got it on their own merit or just because they were children of some Congress politicians.

Karan Thapar: Alright Mr Moily, let’s come to the second allegation raised by Mrs Margaret Alva and in may senses the most important one. She says that tickets have been sold. Yogendra Makwana has gone further. He has named the amount, as high as Rs 2.5 crore for Alwar rural. He has even named people who paid the amount . Why are you not investigating the issue when it touches the morality, integrity and the reputation of your party?

Veerappa Moily: I must tell you that all of that is false.

Karan Thapar: You have to prove to me that it is false.

Veerappa Moily: No, no. That is a different matter. Under the judiciary there is a principal called Res Judicata.

Karan Thapar: But this is not a judicial matter. It is an issue of the morality of the party. Its the morality of your party that is at stake.

Veerappa Moily: You cannot have an enquiry every time on the same episode, on the same issue. I am telling you in relation to Karnataka. I will take later instances later. But as far as Karnataka is concerned matter has been gone into, enquired into.

Karan Thapar: What about Alwar, what about Rajasthan? Those allegations have been raised today.

Veerappa Moily: You know we have made an enquiry. It is found to be totally false, it is a motivated allegation.

Karan Thapar: Are you not brushing the matter under the carpet?

Veerappa Moily: No, no, we are not brushing it. We have verified it and it is wrong.

Karan Thapar: Okay, let me quote to you once again his opinion of politics. He says that the political system in India is very close. There is no internal democracy in the political parties. Opening up the political system can give us potential. And what are you doing? You are closing it. You are throwing away the key. You are not giving people confidence in the congress. You are undermining their confidence in the Congress.

Veerappa Moily: If there is any political party in this system, in these elections that has transparency, it is the Congress. I can give you volumes and volumes of record to demonstrate that there is absolute transparency and a lot of interaction taking place with everyone.

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Karan Thapar: If you are so confident, why don't you hold an enquiry and prove Makwana and Alva wrong and embarrass them, shame them and gain the confidence of the people? You will gain from that. But instead, by refusing an enquiry you are undermining your reputation in the country and you are making it impossible for young people in the country to come forward as Rahul once said.

Veerappa Moily: You show another party in these elections that is as transparent as the Congress. It is very much as per the wishes of Rahulji. It has the transparency, is plot based and is done by the due process and a system, not by an individual.

Karan Thapar: Mr Moily, the good name of a party is the good name of an individual. When an individual is accused of corruption he makes a transparent enquiry in front of the world to prove his accusers wrong and when he succeeds, his reputation gains. The same is the case with parties.

Veerappa Moily: Is there a scope to stop the election process? Then come back to the enquiry and go back to elections, is that possible?

Karan Thapar: I am not saying stop the process. Bring forward the records you have and make them public.

Veerappa Moily: In a party like the Congress, we have inbuilt safeguards, we have inbuilt checks and balances that have been gone into and everything has been gone into. These allegations have been made, just to malign the party and its leadership. These are not genuine and legitimate allegations.

Karan Thapar: People like Siddharamaiah, who left a party to join you, Shiva Murthy or Khurshid Alam making allegations to malign the Congress? They are all Congressmen.

Veerappa Moily:No, this is where we are going wrong. Mr Shiv Kumar has not been a Congressman. He worked against the Congress party in the last elections. As far as Mr Siddharamaiah is concerned, he did not make these allegations. You have to correct yourself.

Karan Thapar: What about Shiv Shankar, what about Khurshid Alam?

Veerappa Moily: P Shiv Shankar after 2004 practically left the party, he is not in the mainstream or the outer stream of the party.

Karan Thapar: So your detractors are unimportant, they are sidelined, they are not honest people, they are motivated, you have an excuse for everything.

Veerappa Moily: No, not excuse. This is a matter of fact and is on record. P Shiv Shankar is producing the letter that he has received in 2004.

Karan Thapar: Let me end this interview with a single question. With your hand on your heart, are you really proud of the way you are behaving in this situation? Don't you think that you are being less than transparent and less than honest to the good name of Congress?

Veerappa Moily: If there is any political party in the country, I can demonstrate to the world that the Congress has been more transparent than any other.

Karan Thapar: Mr Moily, a pleasure talking to you on Devil's Advocate.

Veerappa Moily:Thank you.