Click to play videoSix months after he became the president of Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), how is Nitin Gadkari faring? That’s the key issue Karan Thapar discussed with Gadkari on CNN-IBN on Devil's Advocate programme.
Karan Thapar: Mr Gadkari, you have been the president of BJP for just over six months but already your colleagues are expressing concern and sometimes criticism of your leadership. Does that worry you?
Nitin Gadkari: There is no criticism from my colleagues. The only problem with me is the media -- the perception of the media.
Karan Thapar: Let me quote to you what your colleagues have been saying to the newspapers like ‘The Times of India’. They said: “your leadership is “haphazard and indecisive”. They said to ‘The Hindustan Times’ that there is a sense of drift, that you are defocused?
Nitin Gadkari: Can you name me the leader who is talking all these things?
Karan Thapar: No, if the name of the leader gets published you may get into trouble. You know about this?
Nitin Gadkari: Definitely, it is totally a baseless report. It is only a section of media, which writes a lot of things about the BJP. I don’t know what agenda they carry and follow. But people do comment on such reports on the basis of false information.
Karan Thapar: But, in fact the media has even gone further. ‘The Indian Express’, on June 30, 2010, has said that the Sarsangh Sanchalak or chief of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) is unhappy with the way the BJP is functioning.
Nitin Gadkari: Have you discussed this with the Sarsangh Sanchalak of the RSS?
Karan Thapar:But I think ‘The Indian Express’ has -- it published and half the public had gone through it.
Nitin Gadkari: I don’t understand why the perception of the media is like this. I have discussed many a times with the Sarsangh Sanchalak of RSS and he never told me about this. The reports published in the newspapers are not concrete enough.
Karan Thapar: Let me then clarify the issue. Are these reports are made up and the media is manufacturing things?
Nitin Gadkari: No. My knowledge and my experience of the media say that it is basically the perception of the media which allows them to write what they think. Without knowing the evidences of the cases, media writes whatever comes to their minds. Still, I have no comments on it.
Karan Thapar: Let me put this to you. Is your experience, both of national politics in Delhi as well as running a major Opposition party, a handicap in carrying out your duties as the president of the BJP?
Nitin Gadkari: Not at all. The political crisis in Rajasthan -- which was an acute problem -- has been sorted out by me. The way Ram Jethmalani got elected; it became a remarkable thing for the BJP. Now, the entire BJP is united.
Karan Thapar: Let’s then talk about the major challenges that you have faced in the last six months. First, let us talk about Jharkhand. For 27 days after Sibu Soren voted with the government over the Opposition cut motions, your party was flip-flopping between either wanting to break with the alliance or to create a new understanding with the Jharkhand Mukti Morcha (JMM).
As a result, someone as senior as Murli Manohar Joshi went on record to say that this is a theatre of the absurd. People said that Nitin Gadkari is indecisive; he can’t make up his mind.
Nitin Gadkari: First of all there is a difference between a strategy and conviction. For example, in Jharkhand the Congress party wants to divide the smaller political parties by using their muscle and money-power. They want to create something different in Jharkhand.
Karan Thapar: Don’t talk about the Congress but talk about the BJP. The question here is whether your are indecisive which in turn has let the BJP suffer?
Nitin Gadkari: Whenever we make any decision, sometimes it may work or it may not. Many a times the decision that we take are regarded as advantageous for the party. But many a times we have faced problems. It is a very common scene in any political party and not a big thing in politics.
Karan Thapar: You mean in Jharkhand you have faced problems and there was no advantage?
Nitin Gadkari: No. As far as Jharkhand is concern; we are expecting cooperation from Sibu Soren. He was committed to the party but once he changed his role we decided to close the chapter.
Karan Thapar: But you didn’t close it as easily as you make it seem. You went on for 27 days. The newspapers say that Sushma Swaraj and L K Advani were against Sibu Soren but it was you who wanted to give him another chance. Today, on hindsight, can you accept that you have made a mistake?
Nitin Gadkari: The decision on Jharkhand crisis was taken up by the core group of the BJP. Both Sushma Swaraj and L K Advani were also the part of the decision.
Karan Thapar: So, there was no dissent in the BJP at all?
Nitin Gadkari: We all have decided on the issue and then finally we have come up with the final decision.
Karan Thapar: Let me tell you that why people say that Jharkhand was bad for the BJP. The day Shibu Soren voted for the government your party spokesman publicly said that it was foul play. Next day, Sushma Swaraj went on public and said it was an act of betrayal.
But when you suddenly realised that loosing power in Ranchi would also adversely affect you in Bihar, you took an complete U-turn. That not only made the BJP look opportunistic, it undermines the party’s image and worst it has hit the party’s integrity.
Nitin Gadkari: In many cases, particularly the Congress party, other political parties also have taken many decisions politically.
Karan Thapar: But you should not compare BJP with other political groups. You are a party with a difference. You are supposed to be better than the Congress?
Nitin Gadkari: That’s what we are.
Karan Thapar: Then how do you account for this flip-flop and opportunism?
Nitin Gadkari: I will tell you later that Jharkhand episode will be beneficial for us. You wait for some days.
Karan Thapar: Are you sure that it isn’t a vain-boast?
Nitin Gadkari: Not at all.
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Karan Thapar: Your are going on record to say that the Jharkhand episode will be beneficial for the BJP?
Nitin Gadkari: I just want to tell you one thing that you wait for some days. Don’t make the final analysis because the situation of Jharkhand has also changed politically.
Karan Thapar: Let’s come to the second big challenge that you have faced in the last six months: Bihar. Can you accept that in handling the Nitish Kumar controversy the BJP was inept and perhaps have mishandled it?
Nitin Gadkari: Not at all. The people are in fact, appreciating us for the way we are handling the issue. This is not the problem which is being created by the BJP--now the case has been closed.
Karan Thapar: Let me tell you why the people think that the BJP has mishandled the issue?
Nitin Gadkari: It is not at all a mishandling case.
Karan Thapar: In the Lok Sabha election of 2009, the NDA won on a astonishing 132 out of 246 seats and Narendra Modi didn’t campaign in Bihar.
Why then just five months before the state election are you trying to build up his image through advertisements in Patna newspapers? It is unnecessary and it is uncalled for why you are doing?
Nitin Gadkari: That is a very negligible subject. It is not a big issue.
Karan Thapar: But you knew it would annoy Nitish Kumar; it was unnecessary. Moreover, you don’t need Narendra Modi.
Nitin Gadkari: Narendra Modi is a Chief minister of Gujarat, he is a party leader. As a national executive he is also expected there. The party will decide on Narendra Modi.
Karan Thapar: OK. Let me point you the second reason why the people think that the BJP is mishandling Bihar. Your party keeps periodically insisting that Narendra Modi and Varun Gandhi will campaign in Bihar. You know that your ally Nitesh Kumar doesn’t want them, then why do you keep insisting it?
Nitin Gadkari: Already the problem has been closed. The BJP will decide that who will campaign from where, not the other political parties.
Karan Thapar: You are saying to me that Narendra Modi, if the BJP wants, will campaign in Bihar regardless of what Nitesh Kumar says?
Nitin Gadkari: For the campaigning issue, it will be the party who will make the decision.
Karan Thapar: That could endanger your alliance. Is it worth your while in risking the alliance by bringing a man who makes no difference in vote count in Bihar. Why bring him in where you don’t need him? Why risk you alliance?
Nitin Gadkari: I want to clear one thing to you that my party will decide who will be the leader for the party in Bihar.
Karan Thapar: Let me quote to you what in fact JD (U) spokesman Shivanand Tiwari has said. He has gone on record to say that Nitish Kumar and Nitish alone will decide who will campaign in Bihar? So you’re saying it to me that Shivanand Tiwari is wrong and the BJP will send whoever they want to send?
Nitin Gadkari: After this statement, there have been many other statements that was made and passed. Now the issue is closed. We don’t have any problem with our alliance and we are having a good relation with our alliance in Bihar.
Karan Thapar: You don’t think (BJP leader) Ananth Kumar's statement in Gujarat is going to reopen the problem for you?
Nitin Gadkari: No.
Karan Thapar: Are you sure?
Nitin Gadkari: Yes.
Karan Thapar: Ananth Kumar has gone on record and said: “I have come here (Gujarat) to request Modi to campaign in Bihar.”
Nitin Gadkari: It is not important for the party to request anybody to campaign.
Karan Thapar: My last question to you on this topic. Is this practical politics or is this emotion prestige and pride? Are you not for the sake of pride endangering an alliance that’s critical to you?
Nitin Gadkari: We are a democratic party and we will decide for our party.
Karan Thapar: Mr Gadkari, in the last one month eminent lawyer Ram Jethmalani and former defence minister Jawant Singh have been taken back by the party. You can take back Uma Bharati too. Is this is a sign of desperation or is the party changing its core beliefs and principles?
Nitin Gadkari: To add people to the party is going to strengthen it. It is a good thing for the party.
Karan Thapar: How? These are the people who opposed your party many a times?
Nitin Gadkari: It may happen to anyone. To add people to the party is a good sign.
Karan Thapar: Let’s first take the example of Jaswant Singh. When he published his book on August you expelled him when he had called Pakistan founder M A Jinnah a great man. He called him a nationalist who was misunderstood. He said he was a secular leader. Most importantly of all he added that Sardar Patel was more responsible for the partition than Jinnah himself.
To this day Jaswant Singh has not changed his view. In fact, he publicly said: “I don’t disown what I have written, I stand by it”. So where now do your core beliefs stand?
Nitin Gadkari: As a person Jaswant Singh is a good man. He is a senior and experienced leader. At the time of foundation of the party, he was there. I respect him. Apart from his book, he is loyal to the party.
Karan Thapar: What about his views?
Nitin Gadkari: I respect him a lot. I’m not concern about his book. These are old issues. The issue is closed. Apart from the views, he is loyal to the party.
Karan Thapar: But how can it be? You believe Sardar Patel is an icon?
Nitin Gadkari: These are the old issues now.
Karan Thapar: Jaswant Singh has said: “my views remain the same. How can I disown whatever I have written down”?
Nitin Gadkari: All these issues are now closed. He is loyal to the party. He believes in the ideology of the BJP and we have faith on him as a senior leader.
Nitin Gadkari: Let me quote to you what Jaswant said in this programme in August. He said: “we treat Muslims as aliens. Looking into their eyes one can see truly see the pain they live with”. That’s not the position that the BJP agrees or believe on. That is what exactly what he said.
Nitin Gadkari: A big political party is a group of big political leaders. Everyone has some independent and different opinions. It never happens that 100 percent opinions are same. There may be some opinions that Jaswant Singh may have which I may not agree with. But I feel he is loyal to the party, is a very respectable leader and that is why I approached him.
Karan Thapar: Let’s talk about Ram Jethamalani. This is a man, who in 2004, publicly cast aspersions on the moral integrity of former Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee. He ridiculed Vajpayee’s mental balance.
Nitin Gadkari: He has already cleared the issue. Now, the chapter is closed.
Karan Thapar: No, he hasn’t!
Nitin Gadkari: He cleared the things....before coming to BJP he cleared the things that those comments (against Vajpayee) were not good. That he is sorry for it.
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Karan Thapar: How did he clear them?
Nitin Gadkari: He has apologised for what he has said.
Karan Thapar: You’re saying an apology is sufficient.
Nitin Gadkari: I have discussed with Jethmalani about the case and I’m satisfied.
Karan Thapar: Is Vajpayee satisfied? Is his family satisfied?
Nitin Gadkari: Yes.
Karan Thapar: Mr Gadkari, a pleasure talking to you.
Nitin Gadkari: Thank you.
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