Click to play videoKaran Thapar: Does the government accept that the Mumbai terror strike caught India with its pants down? That is the key issue I shall explore today with the Minister of Science and Technology, Kapil Sibal.
Kapil Sibal, it may be a rough thing to say but many believe it is the blunt truth, that India was caught with its pants down.
Kapil Sibal: You have the privilege to use that expression but it’s true that there cannot be something as horrendous as this, which happened without there being security or intelligence lapses.
Karan Thapar:It wasn't that just happened wasn't horrendous. It was the utter failure of several institutions to be able to respond. That was embarrassing.
Kapil Sibal: I think down the line, from the time that some information came to the time that we responded to what was happening in front of our eyes, I think all across there were lapses. There is no doubt about it.
Karan Thapar:Are you embarrassed?
Kapil Sibal: More than embarrassed, I think I am enraged.
Karan Thapar: Let’s go through some of the things that happened and take them issue by issue. Let's begin with the innumerable actionable intelligence alerts that were completely ignored. The Hindustan Times reports that four separate alerts were given by the Research and Analytical Wing (RAW) predicting that the terrorists would come by sea, and identifying the targets that they would go for. These were given as recently as November 19 and November 26 but were completely ignored.
Kapil Sibal: You know, this is the point. Yes there were alerts. Yes there was information, what was the credence or seriousness given to that information?
Karan Thapar:None.
Kapil Sibal:That's the point. Obviously no seriousness was given to the information. Someone said it was not actionable information. Obviously, there is something wrong with the agencies which look at that information and analyse the information.
Karan Thapar:In fact, the British newspaper The Guardian says that senior Bush administration officials have said that they had precisely predicted that the Taj Hotel would be a target. The American TV channels, CNN and ABC say that these warnings about the Taj were given twice in the last month and no Indian official took countenances of them.
Kapil Sibal: First of all, I do not know who the information was given to because you are not quoting Indian newspapers as well as foreign newspapers. But I am sure there was information of some sort or the other. Such an attack could not have been executed without long-term planning and training. And down the road, obviously there, were some lapses.
Karan Thapar:It is not just the intelligence that was available — detailed, specific and therefore actionable yet ignored — what's even worse is that the authorities actually operated as if there wasn't a sense of crisis. Ratan Tata has revealed that in the days preceding the attack, the security provided for the Taj was actually reduced, which suggests that the authorities thought that the situation was improving.
Kapil Sibal: I cannot now answer on behalf of some other state agencies or the state authorities who ought to have looked at the situation in the context of the information available with them.
Karan Thapar:Will you accept this?
Kapil Sibal: I can say that when I look at what happened and I look at the enormity of what happened, then I look at the fact that this could not have happened on a plan which was executed overnight. Obviously, there have been serious lapses.
Karan Thapar:Let me put it like this. Would you expect that this is a monumental failure both of the joint intelligence committee and national security secretariat?
Kapil Sibal: If you want to put me in the dock, I am ready to be in the dock. We are the government in power and the fact of the matter is that such a thing happened. We could not prevent it. Now, we are sorry. We are really sorry.
Karan Thapar: You mean that you are really, truly sorry?
Kapil Sibal: I am genuinely very, very upset.
Karan Thapar: Are you asking the country to forgive you?
Kapil Sibal: There is no question of forgiveness. We now have to fight this, and fight this together. What's the point of my saying forgive us? Somebody will come to me and say, this is all very well for you to say forgive you. Everybody says that.
Karan Thapar: I will tell you why I asked you that. You are actually asking for apology, because on the May 19, 2004, two days after the Congress-led government was elected, Sonia Gandhi said, "Our country will be safe in Dr Manmohan Singh's hands." She couldn't have meant this on being safe?
Kapil Sibal: Nobody at that point of time, Sonia Gandhiji, the Prime Minister or any of us, could have imagined. Remember, this attack was something very different.
Karan Thapar: Which is why I am saying when you are saying you are very, very sorry, are you also saying please forgive us to the country?
Kapil Sibal: The point is when I say that I am very, very sorry what does it mean? What more do you want me to say?.
Karan Thapar: Let me bring up another aspect. Let's move from intelligence and come to the NSG. Do you remember how Congress criticised the BJP during the Kandahar hijack for the fact that the NSG was slow to respond? This time around, NSG that should have moved in within 20 minutes took 10 hours.
Kapil Sibal: It's not the fault of the NSG. It is a systemic failure.
Karan Thapar:It is more than a systemic failure. The NSG don't have a plane for emergency use?
Kapil Sibal: That's not the fault of the NSG.
Karan Thapar:But given the fact that you criticised the BJP at the time of the hijack, how come you didn't provide that plane?
Kapil Sibal: Forget criticism. Let's learn from our mistakes. I think this is a watershed. Such a thing should not have had happened. The enormity of the attack, of the collapse of our systems has brought home the message to us that there is no time to waste.
Karan Thapar: So, we need to make sure that the NSG have a dedicated plane?
Kapil Sibal: Absolutely. They must have dedicated planes. They must have dedicated transportation systems. There must be a command system which not be interfered with. All that must happen.
Karan Thapar: Let's come to the third issue — one that is particularly shocking. Your ally Sharad Pawar revealed during the all-party conference that the Mumbai anti-terrorism squad (ATS) only has 10 bullet-proof jackets and helmets, those too that date back to 1992.
Kapil Sibal: These bullet-proof jackets do not protect you from the AK-47s and Mi6s. These bullet-proof jackets are meant to protect you from much, much weaker weapons. Therefore, even if you have the bullet-proof jackets, remember, the more secure you want your bullet-proof jacket, the heavier it is, the more expensive this is.
Karan Thapar: Let me point out to you that western papers are saying that what was provided to Indian commandos weren't even bullet-proof jackets. The New York Times says that they were riot-control jackets, woefully.
Kapil Sibal:Woefully unprotected. I accept that.
Karan Thapar:But they were the wrong thing. They were knowingly the wrong product.
Kapil Sibal: I don't know about knowingly. That is something that the investigation will show. I cannot comment on it. But I know the end result was that three of our top people were shot.
Karan Thapar:In fact, let's take that example. People saw on television on Wednesday night that Hemant Karkare, the head of the ATS, trying on different bullet-proof jackets to find one that fitted him. Why did he not have a tailor-made one? He is the head of the ATS?
Kapil Sibal: You ask the ATS, you ask the system. They are available there. I don't know. In hindsight, we only can say that this was something unacceptable.
Karan Thapar: He (Hemant) had a bullet-proof jacket on and so did his two senior colleagues. They were shot through the chest and killed.
Kapil Sibal: I think our police forces are ATS, NSG are all ordinary police forces. They need to be protected, equipped, and armed with the most modern weapons. I don't think money should be a consideration.
Karan Thapar: Do you know what Y P Singh, the former police commissioner of Mumbai, says? He says that if they had been properly equipped, they might have only been injured.
Kapil Sibal:These people say all that, but the point is that this has not happened overnight. For the last 30 years, nobody has equipped these people. It is very well for everybody to criticise. And I think we deserve that criticism but everybody down the road for the last 30 years is at fault if the people have not been equipped. Our forces have not been modernised.
Karan Thapar: When you say that they have not been equipped, most people think that they haven't got the most modern equipment, but what people don't realise is that they have got 303 rifles.
Kapil Sibal: I agree with you.
Karan Thapar: And the London Times publishes this story that the India police had World War II vintage rifles. We are the laughingstock of the world.
Kapil Sibal: We know what the reality is, and I am telling you Karan, this is unacceptable. What more can I say?
Karan Thapar:Explain this to me that for four and a half years, you have been in government in Delhi. For almost 10 years, you have been in government in Maharashtra. Are you not responsible for this.?
Kapil Sibal: I am not saying that I am not responsible. I have already said that I am responsible. We have accepted the responsibility. Our Home Minister has gone to Mumbai and said that we are sorry.
Karan Thapar: I am going beyond responsibility. I am saying what sort of a mind, sat as Home Minister in Delhi or Mumbai, doesn't realise that one day when this situation reaches crisis point, we are going to be caught woefully. Did they not think? Did they not analyse?
Kapil Sibal: This is not the first time that we have been attacked. Of course the enormity of this is much more different from previous attacks. But this is something that is known to all authorities.
Karan Thapar: So, we have learnt no lesson?
Kapil Sibal: No, no the point I am making is that this is a watershed.
Karan Thapar: This is the point of asking. What sorts of people don’t learn lessons and don't learn them repeatedly?
Kapil Sibal: I totally agree with you. Therefore, I said this is a watershed. Our government, our Home Minister are going to put institutions in place, mechanisms in place, equip our people with modern equipments.
Karan Thapar: But we have said this every time. Why should we believe you now?
Kapil Sibal: No, we have not said it. Such a thing has not happened before.
Karan Thapar: You know what happened on Saturday? The Prime Minister went to Shantiniketan and the police paid Rs 120 to school boys to climb up trees and act as watch guards. If the Prime Minister can't be secured, how can the country feel safe?
Kapil Sibal: Our security systems need a complete revamp. The fact is that this is a wakeup call — a wake up call that has made the entire country aware of the fact that any government in power must put these institutions and systems in place for everybody's security.
Karan Thapar: Let me point out to you something else too. India perhaps has more terror strikes than any other country. Certainly, India is in the top three and yet our police-to-people ratio is worse than Zimbabwe, Zambia. It is way worse than Sri Lanka but the really shocking news is that even during the four and a half years of the rule of the Congress-led UPA, it is steadily decreasing.
Kapil Sibal: I agree with you. You want me to keep on repeating the same thing on television?
Karan Thapar: No, people can't understand.
Kapil Sibal: I do not understand it myself. But the fact of the matter is that police is not the Central subject, police is the state subject. Law and order is a state subject. Every state government is responsible to arm their police persons, to equip them properly. It is not the fault only of the Congress party. It's the fault of the system. Let's be clear on it.
Karan Thapar: You know something else? Last year I am told, this is what the newspapers say, almost Rs 10,000 crore was spent nationwide on modernising the police force. Where is that money gone?
Kapil Sibal: Well, I don't know the numbers. If Rs 10,000 crore were spent, they must have been well spent.
Karan Thapar: But it can't have been for 303 rifles. Where are the bullet-proof vests?
Kapil Sibal: This is not the only area were expenditure is needed for the police forces. It must have been well spent. If you want an account of it, I am sure that we would be able to give it to you. I can't give it to you off hand now.
Karan Thapar:You were honest enough to say that you were deeply sorry. You came very close to asking for forgiveness although you stopped short of that. Let me put something to you. Can you today understand the way in which the people in India look at politicians? They have gone from criticism to ridicule to contempt?
Kapil Sibal: I think I understood it not today, but many years ago. I am aware of this. And it is not something that I have kept quiet about. It is something that I am very disturbed by. And I think that our political system needs to have a fresh look at itself.
Karan Thapar: Is this a crisis for Indian politicians?
Kapil Sibal: Yes. It has been a crisis for many years. It is not a crisis that has happened overnight.
Karan Thapar: How come something stay a crisis for many years and not get better? In fact, it gets worse and worse.
Kapil Sibal: Because a civil society keeps itself away from politics. People do not want to take up politics as a career because they find it very difficult and occasionally very humiliating.
Karan Thapar: You are saying that good people don't come in, the bad continue?
Kapil Sibal: Good people come in. We don't have the kind of professionalism that is needed in politics. I am not blaming any particular party and I am not pointing fingers at anyone, but that's the state of politics in our country.
Karan Thapar: Even if you are right in saying that the good don't come into politics, therefore the bad continue, why is it that the very worst seem to rise to the positions of responsibility?
Kapil Sibal: If you understand the political system functions in this country and if you fight a Lok Sabha election, you will know that the rot starts at the bottom.
Karan Thapar: But it seems to steadily rise uninterrupted to the top?
Kapil Sibal: It is bound to rise. If the foundations are weak, the house can't be strong.
Karan Thapar: We end up with Home Ministers who are not just an embarrassment...
Kapil Sibal: I will not personalise this debate, please.
Karan Thapar: Alright, let's not personalise the debate, but we end up with the range of ministers at the top who not only are incompetent but don't seem to care about their incompetence.
Kapil Sibal: I will not talk about competence or incompetence. It is not for me to judge. I am nobody to judge somebody else's competence. I am just talking about the lot that enters politics. And then ultimately, if the foundation is weak and rotten, the superstructure cannot be very good.
Karan Thapar: What about the spectacle that was staged in the last three or four days in Maharashtra as you attempted, seemed to fail and then succeeded in changing the Chief Minister, then you couldn't find a replacement, and then you found a replacement and then Narayan Rane revolted?
Kapil Sibal: These are difficult things. These are difficult choices, ultimately. To replace a leader is not an easy choice.
Karan Thapar:Was this seemly a tamasha (spectacle) that was enacted for four days? Does this embarrass Kapil Sibal?
Kapil Sibal: That's the reality of politics. We have seen this reality enact itself not just once but hundreds of times across the board and in any political party. That is the nature of politics unfortunately. It is what it is.
Karan Thapar:When you say, it is what it is, you seem to be accepting it rather than changing it.
Kapil Sibal: There is no point in my saying that okay this is the kind of politics, is it? Can I throw up my hands and forget it?
Karan Thapar: When you say, it is what it is, then there is not just acceptance and resignation you are actually giving an explanation for it?
Kapil Sibal: There is no resignation. There is a firm belief that it needs to change.
Karan Thapar:But it will only change if you say to me that you are embarrassed by what is happening.
Kapil Sibal: We have tried. Okay, we accept the fact that this is something which should never have happened. But is not as if in the last five years this government has not tried to change system or reach out to people.
Karan Thapar:You couldn't you have tried very hard if we ended up in this mess.
Kapil Sibal: We have done a lot of things in these five years that governments have not done in 50 years. We have tried to reach to people. We have set out schemes that were never there before.
Karan Thapar: Let me put this to you. For 70 hours, the people of Mumbai were traumatised by what was happening. The country felt destroyed, not just disheartened.
Kapil Sibal: Absolutely.
Karan Thapar: And then, instead of politicians rising to the occasion, the Congress falls apart, squabbling among itself for the top job.
Kapil Sibal: See the tamasha (spectacle) that was going on — chief ministers from other states coming and making statements. Don't just attack the Congress party. The Congress party certainly shares the blame. But see what was happening across the border and other political parties.
Karan Thapar: Alluding to Narendra Modi?
Kapil Sibal: See what Mr Advani was saying. See what Mr Narendra Modi was saying.
Karan Thapar: Which is why the India people today are, and I am using this word deliberately, disgusted.
Kapil Sibal: Did I not agree with you? Why carry on this? You are right. We need to change.
Karan Thapar: When is it going to change?
Kapil Sibal: I don't know. Ultimately, the people have the right to change things. Let the people participate in the electoral process for change.
Karan Thapar: Are you actually saying to the people of India that don't vote for us. That's the only way we learn?
Kapil Sibal: I am not saying anything. I am saying if you feel strongly about something, come out and vote for your beliefs.
Karan Thapar: Most people feel so strongly that they don't want to vote at all.
Kapil Sibal: Well, that unfortunately is not a choice available in the electoral systems. And I think that's a very defeatist attitude and a defeatist way of looking at it.
Karan Thapar: Today you are facing a country that is not just disheartened and disgusted but something worst still. It is demoralised. I actually have begun to believe that things aren't going to change.
Kapil Sibal: If you continue to use these expressions, perhaps, we will be really demoralised.
Karan Thapar: But that is factually true. I am describing what people feel
Kapil Sibal: No, I am sorry. True that there are lots of people who feel that and there are lots of people, including myself, who feel that we can change it.
Karan Thapar: But they are a minority?
Kapil Sibal: I may be a minority but minority ultimately ends up becoming majority.
Karan Thapar: How?
Kapil Sibal: By changing the system.
Karan Thapar: It is not happening in this country.
Kapil Sibal: Why do you say it will not happen. Why are you so hopeless? And feel so hopelessly about your own country?
Karan Thapar: I don't feel hopelessly about my own country.
Kapil Sibal: You do.
Karan Thapar: I feel hopelessly about Indian politics and Indian politicians.
Kapil Sibal: The expressions that you use, you think that there is no hope. I think there is enormous hope in this country and we will change things. And our government means business.
Karan Thapar: Indians think that there is no hope as long as these politicians continue the way they are
Kapil Sibal: Nothing in life is static, not even life.
Karan Thapar: The problem is that the movement is always for the worse in India not for the better.
Kapil Sibal: This is the catharsis that keeps on taking place.
Karan Thapar: Do you really see a silver lining to this dark black cloud?
Kapil Sibal: Absolutely.
Karan Thapar: What is the lining?
Kapil Sibal: The lining is that we are committed and convinced that we will change the system.
Karan Thapar:Whose is we?
Kapil Sibal: We means whoever is in power today at this point in time.
Karan Thapar: It hasn't happened for 60 years, why should we believe it today?
Kapil Sibal: Don't believe us. I am not saying that you must believe us. I am making a statement that we are committed to do something.
Karan Thapar: You may be but are the other politicians?
Kapil Sibal: Sure. I am sure there are right thinking people in this government who feel equally strongly. Why do you assume?
Karan Thapar: Are you speaking with confidence or are you just saying because you have to say it?
Kapil Sibal: I am speaking with passion, not just with confidence.
Karan Thapar:You believe it?
Kapil Sibal: I believe it. I believe our Prime Minister wants to change things. I believe Sonia Gandhi wants to change the future.
Karan Thapar: Alright, Kapil Sibal, I hope you are right. Pleasure talking to you.
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