Musharraf says he is best suited to handle Pakistan

New Delhi: Former Pakistan President General Pervez Musharraf revealed on Friday that he was open to an alliance with Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf chief Imran Khan, however, adding that he would not "work under him".

Musharraf was speaking to Karan Thapar on Devil's Advocate when he made the comments. Speaking from Dubai, he said Pakistan needed a third political option when asked whether alliance with Imran Khan was a possibility.

Here's the entire transcript of the interview

Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil's Advocate. In a special interview with the former president of Pakistan, General Pervez Musharraf, who has announced that he will be returning to his country at the end of this month to contest elections. What are his chances and how will he handle the possibility of arrest?

General Musharraf, why are you returning to Pakistan, when there's a real danger you could be arrested on arrival and no real prospect that you will return to power?

Pervez Musharraf: Well, yes there is a danger of arrest and I have considered that as well. One has to face that danger. The other is, I will not return to power – that is a question mark. I am going back to contribute to the political situation and I am hopeful that I will do well in the elections. My party will do well in the elections.

Karan Thapar: Let's first talk about the possibility of arrest. Have you had any assurance from General Kayani, the Army chief, whether you will be arrested or not?

Pervez Musharraf: Well, no, I have not taken any assurances from anyone.

Karan Thapar: The Pakistani newspapers report that before you return to Pakistan, you will go to Saudi Arabia, to both seek the support of King Abdullah as well as the guarantee you won't be arrested. Is that the case?

Pervez Musharraf: Well I am going for Umrah and not to meet anyone in particularly. But since I have relationships there, may be I'd meet some people. But basic purpose of going there is for Umrah.

Karan Thapar: Will you meet King Abdullah and will you seek some assurance from him about whether you will be arrested or not?

Pervez Musharraf: Well, I don't know whether I will be meeting him. It's not fixed as yet. But I am not going to seek assurances. I don't think anyone outside can give assurances of what will happen to me inside Pakistan.

Karan Thapar: Beyond the question of arrest, do you have any reason to believe that the Pakistan Army would welcome your return at this particular point?

Pervez Musharraf: Well, I don't know that, I have commanded the Army, so I know if you are talking of the Army, generally people, I know, I have been a popular commander of the Army. But when you say 'Army', are you talking of the Army chief, I don't know. But I am not in contact with them, so I don't know what their attitude may be.

Karan Thapar: You haven't been in contact with General Kayani at all, is that what you are saying?

Pervez Musharraf: Well once in a while, I have spoken to him, some special occasion. Otherwise not.

Karan Thapar: Do you have any reason to believe that General Kayani would welcome your return at this point of time?

Pervez Musharraf: Well I can't say. One can't say and I haven't checked also. Because I personally believe, I have got involved in politics. And I am looking, focusing entirely on the mandate of the people. I need to get the mandate of the people, the support of the people and that is not what Army will contribute to.

Karan Thapar: But do you believe that the rank and file of the Army, may be not the top generals, but the soldiers, would welcome your return?

Pervez Musharraf: Well they like me, certainly. I know that they like me. So now whether they will welcome my return and how do they welcome, I don't know. But I certainly know that they like me.

Karan Thapar: You are confident that the Army today still likes you?

Pervez Musharraf: Yes absolutely, I am very confident. I am not a desk type of a commander. I have been a very, very field commander. I have led from the front. And therefore, I know that the people, the Pakistan Army, rank and file, have always loved me.

Karan Thapar: What about the Chief Justice? He has very good reasons not to like you. Are you at all concerned that he might take steps to detain you, perhaps arrest you?

Pervez Musharraf: Well, I expect from a chief justice. I expect balanced judgements. I expect justice.

Karan Thapar: You weren't exactly balanced and just yourself when you handled the Chief Justice in 2007. Are you not worried that he might look for revenge?

Pervez Musharraf: Well that was a different issue and I was very, very just. You are very wrong in saying that. I took the issue or the reference. I sent (it) to the judicial council and that is the constitutional position of any accusation against any judge. So I absolutely acted according to the Constitution.

Karan Thapar: But as of today, you are not worried that the Chief Justice might arrest you on arrival?

Pervez Musharraf: Well, It's not the Chief Justice who will arrest me. There are arrest warrants against me in the cases, all the cases I know are politicised and the arrest warrants are for my non-appearance in the court. So I will appear in the court the day I go, or soon after. So I really don't know what are the legal position taken by those courts. It's not the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court who is going to be interfering.

Karan Thapar: Okay. But you are telling me that you are prepared to appear in court and you are prepared to face arrest if that court that you appear in so orders.

Pervez Musharraf: Well, I have got a judicial team who is looking into all this. And they are advising me. I will go by their advice and I will go by the law of Pakistan.

Karan Thapar: Is there any possibility that between now and the end of the month, you may change your mind and decide not to return or are you committed to returning, whatever happens?

Pervez Musharraf: Well up till now, I am absolutely committed.

Karan Thapar: What do you mean, 'up till now'? You are leaving an element of doubt.

Pervez Musharraf: Well, a lot of people keep advising me. My party people and everyone. They are looking at the present situation that is prevailing there. But I will be going back.

Karan Thapar: You are saying to me that you are under pressure from people - your own team and others - to change your mind.

Pervez Musharraf: Well, generally all my friends and my well wishers have apprehensions like you are voicing and they keep advising otherwise. But I have taken a decision, as I said, that I will go back.

Karan Thapar: Now let's come to the mandate that you believe you might be able to seek and achieve. In a recent interview to the Pakistani newspaper, Pakistan Today, reported by them on January 1, you said Pakistan needs you badly because you are the only person experienced enough to get the country back on the track of progress. What leads you to believe that you could be the saviour of Pakistan today?

Pervez Musharraf: Well, I don't think I used such words as "Pakistan needs me badly" and I did say I am person who is most qualified to handle the situation in Pakistan, because the two political parties, major political parties, have both been tried twice and failed, thrice and failed. Then others involved have not been tried at all. I am one who has been tried and I succeeded. So there's a difference between me and them. I have governed Pakistan for about nine years, and I have successfully governed Pakistan. So I know what to be done and I have an international standing and therefore, the issue in Pakistan is domestic as well as international. And I think I am very capable of handling all that. I understand Pakistan. So that is what I said.

Karan Thapar: You are saying that your track record as president justifies your belief that you are the right person to handle Pakistan today?

Pervez Musharraf: Yes indeed.

Karan Thapar: But what gives you the feeling that the people of Pakistan want you back. After all, when you left in 2008, you were a deeply unpopular person.

Pervez Musharraf: Well but on the contrary, between 1999 and early 2007, for eight years, I was a deeply popular person. My popularity in March 2007, was 78 per cent, I think. So what happened in that one year, that is most unfortunate. But then, people are harking back to my time now. Now that they are suffering and everything is going down, the economy, Railways are not moving, PIA is crashing, the economy is in shambles, law and order, terrorism, extremism, dysfunctional government, political chaos all that they are harking back to the eight years of time where people made money, legitimate money. They did good business. They earned a lot, per capita income increased. Their livelihood improved, their standard of living improved and there was tremendous development in all socio-economic sectors of Pakistan. Nothing of that sort is happening now. So therefore they are harking back to that time. And they realise that that was the time which was wonderful for Pakistan and for them.

Karan Thapar: And you are saying to me that that was the golden age and by returning to Pakistan and winning back power, you can restore that old golden age. Is that what you are saying to me?

Pervez Musharraf: I think so, yes. It certainly was a golden age. It was a period of development for the state and welfare for the people of Pakistan. And I know what to do and since I did it in '99, the situation was, the economic situation was as bad, if not worse, I think we can turn everything around.

Karan Thapar: Now despite denials, there continues to be contentious speculation in Pakistan that you could seek some sort of alliance with Imran Khan and his Tehreek-e-Insaf party. Is that a possibility?

Pervez Musharraf: I believe in setting a vision and a strategy. Now my vision is that we have to, for the sake of Pakistan, we have to break the political status quo. We have to come with a third political option, because otherwise the two political option presently, and in the past, tried… they have tried and failed. So where do we go? If we hand over to the same people, it is going to be the same thing again. We will keep going down. In that context, I said that if we have to break the political status quo, if anyone can do it individually, well and good, otherwise there is a need of coalition forces which can bring about that third political option, which can deliver to Pakistan.

Karan Thapar: To me this sounds as if you are saying that a coalition or an alliance with Imran Khan is a possibility. Have I understood that correctly?

Pervez Musharraf: Well, you clap with two hands. I know what you have said is correct. There are people in his party who keep negating this that they will not get into an alliance with me. But they don't have a vision; they are those who say that they don't understand what they are talking. If they go into the field and they lose to the same parties, well then Pakistan suffers. So they should think of Pakistan… what is needed in Pakistan. If they don't want to have an alliance, certainly, I wouldn't like to have an alliance with them.

Karan Thapar: Let me put to you one of the possible problems of an alliance with Imran Khan and the Tehreek-e-Insaf. Imran Khan has clearly said that if he wins, he will be prime minister. Are you prepared to serve under Imran Khan?

Pervez Musharraf: No, these are later issues. If he wins, If he wins, certainly he will be the prime minister. But in a coalition when there are many other things, certainly I cannot serve under him. No, that is not a possibility. I can be outside, but I can't be serving under him. I can't be serving under anyone.

Karan Thapar: In other words, you can either be prime minister yourself, or you will be outside supporting the government that is created from outside but you will not serve under someone else's prime minister. Is that correct?

Pervez Musharraf: Well these are things which we will address, I think, later on. It is too premature to be talking of these things. There are many options.

Karan Thapar: General Musharraf, at the moment, there is a constitutional crisis in Pakistan. The Prime Minister has accused the Army chief and the Director General of the ISI of violating the Constitution. In response, the Army has issued a formal statement warning the Prime Minister of grave consequences, and the Defence Secretary has been sacked. Many believe that the situation is building up to an Army coup. Would you at this point welcome an Army coup?

Pervez Musharraf: No I don't think it is leading to an Army coup. I don't think Army intends to take over. I think the environment is not at all conducive for Army takeover. And I think the Army understands that. But whatever you said, yes, that has happened and it is terrible that the organs of state are at loggerheads with each other and the pillars of state also have differences and pulling in different directions. This is the problem in Pakistan today, there is total… people… organs of state and pillars of state… pulling in different directions. How can governance take place?

Karan Thapar: But let me just clarify something. You are saying to me two things. First of all you don't think an Army coup is likely. Secondly, you have also suggested you wouldn't welcome or endorse an Army coup. Am I correct on both points?

Pervez Musharraf: Well I'll leave it to the Army, whatever they are handling, I am reasonably sure the Army coup will not take place. But my sympathies, my support always remains with the Army. I have been an Armyman and I can never imagine to be against the Army.

Karan Thapar: Alright, in other words, if there is a coup, which you think is unlikely, but if there is a coup, your sympathies will lie with the Army.

Pervez Musharraf: Always, for anything, I am with the Army. I will always stand by the Army.

Karan Thapar: A second source of political tension and turmoil at the moment is the belief that the Supreme Court might seek to dismiss both the Prime Minister and the President for failure to carry through with the corruption cases against the President. If such a constitutional coup, as it's being called, were to happen, would you support this step by the Supreme Court?

Pervez Musharraf: Yes, certainly. Supreme Court's decisions ought to be accepted by all. I mean what else is there? Where do we go? We can only go to God Almighty after that. So Supreme Court decision on any case ought to be accepted and one has to… I would certainly accept it. Yes.

Karan Thapar: So if the Supreme Court were to rule, in some form, that both the Prime Minister and the President are dismissed because they failed to carry through the corruption cases against the President, you would support that. That's what you have said?

Pervez Musharraf: What is the difference, whether I support or not? It has to be accepted and it should be adhered and it should be implemented.

Karan Thapar: Now General Musharraf, at the moment, there is turmoil in Pakistan, there is a constitutional crisis, the economy is melting down, there's terror, there's militancy. In these circumstances, should elections be held in 2013, when they are due, or should they be held early?

Pervez Musharraf: Hardly makes a difference, Karan. I think, now we are already in 2012 and elections can't be held in fifteen days or anything. They take three months. And unfortunately, three months we will land up closer to Ramzan and Id, because at the moment, another important event is elections to the Senate. That's going to be in March. So if we take three months after that, we land up in the Ramzan period. So it goes beyond that. Beyond that… when you go beyond that, you land up in September, October, November. So what is the difference between '13 or end 2012? Elections should be held. That is the only answer to the turmoil and the people of Pakistan must understand that they vote for the right party and the right leaders. If they don't do that, Pakistan will remain in trouble for another five years.

Karan Thapar: Let me now ask you about the constitutional status that you seek for the Army if you were to come to power. What role do you envisage for the Army if you were to come to power?

Pervez Musharraf: No there's no role for the Army on the political side or in governance. They have their role – the security of Pakistan, from internal and external threat. But, however, having said that, I had created a National Security Council. Now this was a consultative body. It was not superimposed over the Senate in the National Assembly. As a consultative body, its composition was most appropriate. And it also, it had important ministers, President to chair it, Prime Minister as member, important ministers, the chief ministers, not the important ministers and we had also put the military men in it – the Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee and the three chiefs.

Karan Thapar: And you think this body should be brought back?

Pervez Musharraf: Yes absolutely, it should be brought back because this is a body which would temper, which would moderate actions which will consult, through the consultation, come to the rescue of problems that Pakistan faces.

Karan Thapar: But today, when you are no longer Army chief and you are now a civilian man, would you accept civilian supremacy over the military?

Pervez Musharraf: Civilian supremacy is always there. It's a misperception that in Pakistan, the military dominates the civilians. It does not. It is only when Pakistan gets in trouble, like it is now or in 1999, or previously in previous days, then people run to the Army to save Pakistan. So now it's not that Army is dictating to the government. Never. It never dictates to the government. I know that when I was a chief. So this is what people perceive that Army runs Pakistan. It does not run Pakistan at all.

Karan Thapar: Alright you made it clear, in a fairly roundabout way... but you nonetheless suggested that you accept civilian supremacy of the Army. General Musharraf, my last question. Would the prime minister of Pakistan, after the elections, whether it's you, Imran Khan, or anyone else, would the prime minister of Pakistan be the final, last authority, and would the Army chief be subordinate to him, a quick answer, Sir.

Pervez Musharraf: Absolutely, 200 per cent. Always. But one expects as a patriotic Pakistani, I will expect the prime minister to be looking after Pakistan and ensuring the welfare of the people and development of the state. And if Pakistan is ending up, as it is today, then yes, people again go back to the Army. So this is not such a simple yes and no answer. Certainly, prime minister will be 200 per cent, he should be in charge and certainly the Army serves the prime minister and the government of Pakistan.

Karan Thapar: Given that you have kept a backdoor always open for the Army to intervene, let me ask you one more question. If you become Prime Minister of Pakistan, will you permit General Kayani to serve until November 2013, when his present 3-year extension ends, or will you ask him to seek retirement early?

Pervez Musharraf: I think these are premature questions. I think he must serve. He has got an extension till 2013, and he should continue and we should not disturb this element at all. We must go by the rules. Otherwise an Army chief is not a junior person that you can give extension and then tell him to quit. It's not a good way of handling issues.

Karan Thapar: Alright General Musharraf, we leave this particular interview there. My thanks to you for speaking to Devil's Advocate. That was General Pervez Musharraf, former president of Pakistan, who says that he will return to his country at the end of this month, although you may have noticed in that interview, he has also indicated he is under pressure to change his mind. Even I have to wait and see whether he keeps his word or whether other people's council prevails.

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