'Musharraf's not going to let go of power'

Now that the elections are over, does Imran Khan regret boycotting the elections? That’s the issue raised by CNN-IBN’s Karan Thapar in Devils Advocate.

Karan Thapar: Now that the elections are over and the political parties have won almost two thirds of seats in the National Assembly. Do you regret your boycott?

Imran Khan: Absolutely not. Let me say that if it ever happened again that the Constitution was suspended, 60 per cent of the judges sacked unconstitutionally and the election held under PCO (Provisional Constitutional Order) which had no legality, I would again boycott the election.

Karan Thapar: I accept the way you characterise the last regime. But had you contested, you would have won and you’d be a minister and your political career would get a boost, which it badly needs.

Imran Khan: I am not in this politics for a political career. Almighty has been kind to me and I have everything I want. I came in for a movement, for justice, and independent justice for 11 years, my party was clamouring all over the place and no one was paying any attention. But for the first time in history a chief justice takes a stand against a dictator and I had to stand with him.

Karan Thapar: Your party took a terrific stand with Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, but the party then wanted the political reward for what it did. Had you contested, the party would have won 15 to 20 seats. You would have been a major gainer in the frontier. You have denied your party an opportunity to become something to reckon with.

Imran Khan: It is true that we were the best prepared and in Frontier we were the second highest vote bank, which is close to18 per cent.

Karan Thapar: And it may never happen again.

Imran Khan: Well that’s for us all to see. In my opinion we only lose, when we lose the credibility. And if the elections were held on January 8, I am telling you, Musharraf would have won the elections.

Karan Thapar: But the point is that it did not happen. The situation that could happen is that you would have 15-20 seats and your party would have established itself. Your party men would be MLAs. Suddenly, you have denied them everything. And had you done it because you have been a little obstinate.

Imran Khan: The only reason this revolution happened, and this is a revolution through the ballot, was because of Benazir assassination. That tragic incident suddenly changed everything. If the elections were held on January 8, there is absolutely no doubt that Nawaz Sharif would have been wiped out and Q-league would have taken over.

Karan Thapar: But Nawaz Sharif, who wanted to boycott, participated and he actually benefited from Benazir assassination. The ANP also benefited. The only party that has not benefited is yours. Have you allowed your obstinacy to come in the way of your party's political interest? You are smiling and you know the answer is yes.

Imran Khan: No it’s not. Remember I stood for the independence of judiciary. My party was the first one, the day the chief justice took a stand, I was the first one who held the press conference and stood by him. So, I could not have abandoned him. If we had participated and if the elections were held on January 8, and the Q-league had won, we would have legitimised the destruction of the judiciary. I could never do that.

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Karan Thapar: But you keep talking about January 8. Nawaz Sharif spoke to me and told me that he advised you to stand for the elections. He says, assi saare jit gaye, o bechara haar gaya (We won and he lost).

Imran Khan: That’s true.

Karan Thapar: You accept it.

Imran Khan: No, I am saying that it is true that it was a great opportunity, but I want to say this that Nawaz Sharif boycotted the elections with us. We debated the whole issue twice. The second time he changed his mind. I believe that you take all the time in taking your decisions, but once you take a decision, stand by it.

Karan Thapar: Obstinacy?

Imran Khan: It is not obstinacy. If this happens again, I will do the same thing again.

Karan Thapar: An affectionate satire of you in Friday Times. You don’t think that unwittingly you have given them a bit of ammunition to them against yourself?

Imran Khan: There are a lot of papers I pay attention to, but not Friday Times. It’s about mind over matter. I don’t mind and they don’t matter.

Karan Thapar: Now that the elections have brought together the opposition as it used to be, the political parties as they are today to power, will you seek a bi-election to get back to the Parliament?

Imran Khan: It all depends on whether the judiciary is restored. If it is restored, then may be we hold a party meeting and then may be we think about it. But as it stands today, unless the judges are reinstated, we wait for the next time.

Karan Thapar: So you are determined to stick to that line. Even though it cost you earlier, you are determined to pay a further price and not contest a bi-election, which you could easily win, because you are going to stand loyal to your position.

Imran Khan: The first election we fought, we were only five months old. We were offered to be a part of the government and the establishment. During the second election in 2002, in Musharraf’s own interview, I was his prime ministerial candidate and I stood with him. This is the third election and on principal, I would stand to reinstate the judiciary.

Karan Thapar: There is another aspect to this election that struck a lot of attention. Your divorced wife suddenly came back and campaigned for you. Who made her do that?

Imran Khan: She did not campaign for me.

Karan Thapar: She said she campaigned for you.

Imran Khan: There was nothing to campaign. We had boycotted the elections. She basically came because she writes for a newspaper and also came because we were boycotting and there was a worry that I would again be put in the jail. My children were here for their holidays and we did not want to be in a position that I went to jail and the children did not have their mother or me. So that’s why she came.

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Karan Thapar: She had an interview with General Musharraf almost on the day of the elections where she quoted him as referring Iftikhar Chaudhry as 'scum of the earth', 'a third rate man', 'a corrupt man'. Musharraf denies that he said any of this. You must know the truth. Did he say it or was he misquoted?

Imran Khan: She’s got it on two tape recorders. Musharraf once denied giving an interview to the Washington Post about an awful thing that Pakistani women get raped to get a visa to go to Canada. So once there was uproar, Musharraf denied that and Washington Post put that on their website.

Karan Thapar: But she has two tape recorders with him calling Iftikhar Chaudhry ‘scum of earth’?

Imran Khan: Everything was true. She actually sent it for a quote check to Musharraf’s public relation officer.

Karan Thapar: Musharraf’s PR officer had an opportunity before the interview was published to refute it but he did not because he checked and confirmed the quote before the publication?

Imran Khan: And it is on two tape recorders.

Karan Thapar: Something else that your ex-wife did. But this she did a lot earlier in October, when Benazir returned to Pakistan, where she wrote an article where she described Benazir as a ‘Kleptocrat in a Hermes scarf’. She also said that she was an incompetent PM and brazenly looted the treasury. Do you as a politician accept these views?

Imran Khan: Well that is Jemima's article. She writes regular columns and I think you should interview her for that.

Karan Thapar: Absolutely. But do you agree with those views or do you disagree?

Imran Khan: I disagreed with corruption in both the PM's time. It is ironic that both of them, themselves, when their members went on the other side, became turncoats. They called them ‘Naabzaadas’, which meant that because of their corruption they went to the other side.

Karan Thapar: You do agree with a view that Benazir was a ‘Kleptocrat in a Hermes scarf’.

Imran Khan: This is obviously Jemima's journalistic style. But Pakistan in 1996, which was Benazir’s second tenure, was the second most corrupt country in the world. So clearly then her government was corrupt.

Karan Thapar: Let’s come to 2008. The PPP is the single biggest party in Parliament. Asif Zardari is the co-chairman of the party. You see in him a ‘crooked widower’ as your ex-wife describes him?

Imran Khan: I think you got to ask Jemima.

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Karan Thapar: But what’s your opinion?

Imran Khan: There is no doubt that Asif faces corruption charges. There is a case going on in Switzerland, where Asif and Benazir were convicted. So he has to fight that case.

Karan Thapar: So, is he a ‘crooked widower’?

Imran Khan: Well, there are corruption allegations on him.

Karan Thapar: One last quote and then I will spare you. Your wife writes, “If PPP wins the elections, which they did, the question will be, is this democracy or a dynasty posing in democracy's fig leaf.” How do you answer her question?

Imran Khan: Well I completely agree with her. Democracy was meant to finish dynastic rule, in other words, monarchy. And in the sub-continent we are plagued with this that just because someone has a blood relationship entitles him or her to inherit power. I disagree with this because it is against the concept of leadership. Leadership means that one person through ability becomes a leader. It doesn’t necessarily mean that the children should also become leaders.

Karan Thapar: So you are agreeing with the opinion that in Pakistan, democracy has become a fig leaf of the Bhutto’s dynasty?

Imran Khan: Not just Pakistan. Look at India, look at Sri lanka or Bangladesh. Same things are happening everywhere. In some cases, widows take over and in this case the widower, or sometimes the children of leaders. However, I think we are moving towards an evolution of democracy and I think, as we get mature, this trend will disappear.

Karan Thapar: It’s hoped that PML-N, PPP will take over later this month. But you know that there are major differences between them and they have been rivals for decades. How long can this alliance hold together?

Imran Khan: More than the alliance, the critical issue is what do they would do with Musharraf. If Musharraf stays, they have got problems to handle. Sooner or later Musharraf will be able to exploit the differences and will be able to use the agencies to create the differences. And so in order to become the power broker, he will not allow them to function properly. So, the first challenge must be to restore the judiciary and deal with Musharraf.

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Karan Thapar: First let’s take Musharraf and then take the judiciary. Najam Sethi, the editor of the Daily Times has written that any strategy that leads to the ouster of Musharraf will automatically mean that the PML-Q will go right back to PML-N and Nawaz Sharif will end up with more MP's than Asif Zardari and that’s clearly what Asif Zardari does not want. Asif Zardari has to work with Musharraf. Musharraf therefore is going to stay.

Imran Khan: Well this is Najam Sethi trying to prop up Musharraf again because he has been campaigning for him throughout. The fact is that people came out to vote against Musharraf. The reason why Pakistan People’s Party did not get two-thirds of majority after Benazir’s assassination is because they dilly dallied and kept playing the US administration’s game and did not target Musharraf, neither did they want the judges to be reinstated.

Karan Thapar: But they aren’t even targeting Musharraf today. Amin Fahim has gone on record to say that it wouldn’t be right to remove Musharraf. Asif Zardari has told the Wall Street Journal that we don’t have the numbers to remove Musharraf. So once again, the official position of PPP is to find a way of having a relationship with Musharraf. Benazir tried it and now Asif is trying it.

Imran Khan: This is the fatal mistake they committed. Pakistan People’s Party would have a two third majority today and not just a majority. The real revolution was Nawaz Sharif with a clear stand against Musharraf. Everyone just went for him. If today, the Pakistan People’s Party does not take a stand, they are going against the public mandate.

Karan Thapar: But the fact is that they did not take a stand and did not get a two thirds majority and now without a simple majority, they have to guard against the PML-Q and one way of doing it, in fact the only way of doing it is to keep Musharraf there so that the PML-Q stays with Musharraf.

Imran Khan: It is debatable. Even if Musharraf stays now, the PML-Q will not wither away. It is an artificial party with no ideology. It was just manufactured by Musharraf and ISI. The point is that as long as Musharraf stays, there are going to be problems, because here is someone, who is not going to let go of power.

Karan Thapar: You are suggesting that Musharraf even without power can be a master tactician and can divide two parties and partners even when it is in their best interest to stay together. In other words, he is an evil genius who has got the capacity to come up trumps even when he has got a bad hand.

Imran Khan: Musharraf is not evil and he is not a genius. Being in the position that he was in 2002, would he be in this situation right now. So he can’t be a genius. It is critical that Asif Zardari understands that if Musharraf is there, he has the ability to unravel this cold relationship.

Karan Thapar: Does Asif understand this?

Imran Khan: People like Najam Sethi saying that be careful…that it will unravel and so on. If he listens to this advice and the US administration that wants Musharraf to stay as their man...

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Karan Thapar: And Asif is close to the US because Benazir came back to Pakistan after consulting Condoleezza Rice. So, is that another reason that Asif might be prepared to work with Musharraf?

Imran Khan: If Asif does not make the right choices now, he will be in trouble six months down the line.

Karan Thapar: So this is a test for Asif?

Imran Khan: Well, he has a problem with the war on terror. If his government is considered a stooge of United States, that finishes his ability to hold dialogues with Taliban and the tribal areas. Because anyone pro-American is not going to have the credibility to talk to them.

Karan Thapar: So the Musharraf decision or the American decision will affect a whole lot of issues including the war on terror.

Imran Khan: War on terror is one problem and the second problem would be that Musharraf would still have authority whereas the responsibility would lie with Asif. You can’t have a management model work like that.

Karan Thapar: It is in interest of Asif to get rid of Musharraf. He needs to see his interest in a broader range than the narrow way in which he is seeing it right now possibly.

Imran Khan: And he also needs an independent justice system to act as a buffer...

Karan Thapar: Nawaz Sharif in an interview to me has gone on record and said that judiciary should be restored on Day I. The problem is that Asif Zardari has very good reasons for not restoring the judiciary. And you know what they are. It would unravel the National Reconciliation Ordinance and all the corruption cases he faces will be brought right back. Why would Asif bring back the judiciary that would end up threatening him?

Imran Khan: If anyone tries to put back this genie in the bottle, he is going to fight a losing game. It is all over. The media can’t be tamed anymore.

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Karan Thapar: He is not putting the genie back in the bottle in the sense of taming the media, but he is moving very slowly in the sense of restoring the judiciary, because he is not talking about bringing the judges back. He is assuring that the right sort of people become the judges, so that we don’t have these problems in the future. In other words, he is talking about the same thing but he is saying very different things about it. That’s why there is a big difference between him and Nawaz.

Imran Khan: If he thinks he can get away by not reinstating the chief justice, he does not realise that he has got a problem in Pakistan. If the chief justice is not reinstated, we are out on the streets. So he will have a real bad start in the government. It is in his best interest that he gets the chief justice reinstated and does not beat around the bush.

Karan Thapar: Do you see the choice you are giving him. You are saying, either bring back the chief justice and your government survives or you don’t bring him back and your government goes. But the problem is that in order to make the government survive, he will be facing 36 corruption cases, court cases, trials, and a possible conviction.

Imran Khan: Well, for the sake of Pakistan, we could give him amnesty from the corruption cases, so that he can get on with the government.

Karan Thapar: Are you formally suggesting, that in the interest of Pakistan an amnesty should be given to Asif Zardari so that he does not worry about the impact on himself of restoring the judiciary.

Imran Khan: This is my personal view and not my party's view. Too much is on stake right now. Just because people are scared of corruption cases, we cannot, not have an independent judiciary.

Karan Thapar: You have said it is your personal view and not your party's view. Would you be able to stand up and defend this view in public because many people will attack you for suggesting that Asif should have an amnesty?

Imran Khan: I think in the interest of Pakistan and as there is too much at stake for the country. We want the judiciary back and if it means an amnesty. Then, yes.

Karan Thapar: That is the cost of establishing a justice system and democracy in Pakistan.

Imran Khan: Exactly. In my opinion it is a key turning point in Pakistan’s history. Suddenly the people have spoken. They have rejected a dictator against all odds. And now we have a hope of moving towards a democratic system.

Karan Thapar: An amnesty is a small price to pay.

Imran Khan: Yes, for the future of our democracy.

Karan Thapar: Imran Khan a pleasure talking to you.